U45 Preview 1: Balance: Knight of the Chalice Changes

[palladin9479]

Make it Strength over Charisma, +4 Charisma is just +2 Strength.

Paladin's stat priority DPS wise is

Strength
Constitution
Charisma

Then some combination of Dexterity / Wisdom with Intelligence being at the end. Skill points are nice but we can get Int for those with a stat tome.

[GoldyGopher]

My Knight of the Chalice build has migrated to a 8 Fighter 8 Monk 4 Paladin Build resulting in a Centered Falchion wielding Elf.

It is a fairly fun build to play, the character was a true paladin to begin with. The change to a multi class is a direct result of the higher specialized DPS being downgraded and base DPS being propagated at a lower level in comparison to other dps characters. I am the first to tell you I could have done a better job at min/maxing the build I am playing, but I was more concerned with it feeling like a KotC than a massive DPS build.

As I look at the proposed changes to the KotC I am using my pseudo build as a comparison stick.

Assuming I went with pure paladin with the full use of new/redone spells here is what I see as the gains and losses. (Ignoring some things that I see are trivial).

Gains
+5 Chr
+3d6 Light Damage vs Evil
+10 Melee Power
+30 Healing Amp

Here is what I lose
-1 Critical Range
-3 Base Weapon Damage
-3 Critical Damage
-2 Strength
-300 Hitpoints (Loss of Feats to power up EDF)
-15 AC (Centered Monk AC vs Armor AC)
- 8 Feats (5 Fighter 3 Monk)

Strength is a wash because of higher Divine Might.
-1 Critical Threat Range is a huge loss.
+3d6 (~10) vs 3 Base Weapon Damage (3) and 3 Critical (9) is close enough to call it a wash, but the light damage is slightly lower in the long run.
-15 AC, is not offset by the higher PRR and MRR
The added self healing and saves bonuses and other minor changes is a complete no gain for characters in my book due to reaper.

in the end you have made my 8/8/4 build stronger
+4 Damage
Scaling Light Damage
Add if you change the Trance to match War Soul/Priest (bonus to damage and DC) I can go Dex build and up my AC. (Losing 1 point of Damage while gaining 2 to 4 points of con).

[palladin9479]

The rule with fighter is you either go a little or you go a lot, you never do the the middle. Fighter has all it's power a the low (6 or less) and high end (14 to 20) with very little in the middle. I'd convert those MNK levels to fighter or paladin, or convert the fighter levels to monk and so forth. Honestly mixing Fighter and Paladin doesn't get you much as they share a lot of things that don't stack well, Fighter + Cleric is usually a better combination.

Still no word from the devs on our feedback for KoTC revamp.

[Alcides]

KotC / Paladin pass suggestions

Bugs found
* Healing Hands - On my character with a wisdom bonus of 21 and 350 healing amplification this is healing for 945 = 4.5 * 21 * 10. The correct amount should be 4.5 * 21 * 30 = 2835.
NOTE: On live my character with a wisdom bonus of 21 and 330 healing amplification this is healing for 3654 = 4.3 * 21 * 40.
* Lay on Hands - On my character with a charisma bonus of 38 and 350 healing amplification this is healing for 1710 = 4.5 * 38 * 10. The correct amount should be 4.5 * 38 * 30 = 5130.
NOTE: On live my character with a charisma bonus of 37 and 330 healing amplification this is healing for 4828 = 4.3 * 37 * 30.
* Slayer of Evil II: The Greater Restoration effect does not remove all ability damage and drain in R10. Per the spell description, all ability damage and drain should be removed.
* Lead the Charge has a 12 second cooldown instead of 6.
* Sacred Ground is *STILL NOT* affected by positive spell critical percentage.

Keepers
* Angelskin is listed as grants +1 Sacred bonus to AC and +1 Sacred bonus to PRR per caster level. but instead buffs PRR and MRR. As pure Aasimar I was able to acheive an AC of 450 with the 10% AC bonus in Sacred Defender which is competitive with other splash tank builds. A dwarf or PDK would be able to get close to 500 which I think is really close to the AC ceiling.
* Blessing as +5 hit/fear saves morale bonus is awesome.
* Prayer as +/- 5 hit/damage/saves/skills luck bonus / penalty is pure awesome.
* Stalwart Pact: Gain a +5% Quality bonus to hit points. When your hit point total is below 50% gain temporary hit points equal to your caster level times charisma modifier. This cannot occur more than once every 3 minutes.

Suggestions
* New spells should cap based on caster level not 20 since Epic Destinies add caster levels.
* Add the 3.5 spell Strategic Charge (Spell Compendium) as a level 1 paladin spell which would grant the Mobility feat.
* Add the 3.5 spell Righteous Wrath (Spell Compendium) as a level 3 paladin spell which would grant a +6 sacred bonus to strength, a +1 Sacred bonus to Melee and Ranged power per caster level.
* Add the 3.5 spell Unmovable Object (Ghostwalk) as a 4th level paladin spell which would add +2 str, +4 con, +4 AC, a +10 bonus to Balance and immunity to trip and knockdown effects.
* Change Durable Defense to something else since Angelskin with PRR/MRR makes this an obsolete enhancement.
* Move Divine Might to Tier 1.
* Add Divine Presence as an alternative to Divine Might.
* Trances that are not Divine Might should add 1/2 stat bonus to +hit / +damage / +tactical DC. This would make all trances mathematically equal to Divine Might which is the only one that grants +hit.
* Trance bonuses only apply to the attack or damage stat affecting the weapon or shield.
* Make Zeal a level 2 Paladin spell which is the original level from 3.5.
* Modify Zeal to scale at 1 Double Strike per caster level.
* Add +4 Strength as selectable option to the KoTC tree capstone.

[palladin9479]

Add increasing the max caster level for Divine Power spell. Capping out at +3 is really weak and usually not worth casting.

[Alcides]

Add increasing the max caster level for Divine Power spell. Capping out at +3 is really weak and usually not worth casting.

Prayer was a luck bonus to hit/damage/saves on the last preview. So they dont really need to update Divine Favor (which I think you meant since Divine Power gives BAB equal to Character level and +6 enhancement STR). I could see an argument for changing the type on Divine Power to +6 sacred strength instead

[palladin9479]

Prayer was a luck bonus to hit/damage/saves on the last preview. So they dont really need to update Divine Favor (which I think you meant since Divine Power gives BAB equal to Character level and +6 enhancement STR). I could see an argument for changing the type on Divine Power to +6 sacred strength instead

Yeah it was Divine Favor, the one with a decent duration (24s + 6/CL). Prayer seems so short though at 6s/CL. TBF for buffs they both have far too short a duration, 2 min max for prayer with 4 under extended. So gotta keep casting it and drain SP on a class that already tends to have low SP.

[Xandez]

KotC / Paladin pass suggestions



Suggestions
* New spells should cap based on caster level not 20 since Epic Destinies add caster levels.
* Add the 3.5 spell Strategic Charge (Spell Compendium) as a level 1 paladin spell which would grant the Mobility feat.
* Add the 3.5 spell Righteous Wrath (Spell Compendium) as a level 3 paladin spell which would grant a +6 sacred bonus to strength, a +1 Sacred bonus to Melee and Ranged power per caster level.
* Add the 3.5 spell Unmovable Object (Ghostwalk) as a 4th level paladin spell which would add +2 str, +4 con, +4 AC, a +10 bonus to Balance and immunity to trip and knockdown effects.
* Change Durable Defense to something else since Angelskin with PRR/MRR makes this an obsolete enhancement.
* Move Divine Might to Tier 1.
* Add Divine Presence as an alternative to Divine Might.
* Trances that are not Divine Might should add 1/2 stat bonus to +hit / +damage / +tactical DC. This would make all trances mathematically equal to Divine Might which is the only one that grants +hit.
* Trance bonuses only apply to the attack or damage stat affecting the weapon or shield.
* Make Zeal a level 2 Paladin spell which is the original level from 3.5.
* Modify Zeal to scale at 1 Double Strike per caster level.
* Add +4 Strength as selectable option to the KoTC tree capstone.

Very solid suggestions!

Why not also give the paladins a chance to use their CHA modifier to hit and dmg with eg. their favored weapons?

[Fedora1]

Very solid suggestions!

Why not also give the paladins a chance to use their CHA modifier to hit and dmg with eg. their favored weapons?

Someone else already pointed out this would pretty much be a loss of dps over STR + Divine Might, since DM adds an insightful STR bonus. You either end up raising your STR above your CHA by using DM, thus using STR anyway, or your STR stays lower than your CHA and DM does nothing. I suppose you could save the AP by not spending it on DM, but it still seems like a dps loss.

I am not against the idea, it just doesn't seem like it would help paladins in general. I never spent AP on the PDK enhancement to use CHA for the same reasons.

[Ausdoerrt]

Someone else already pointed out this would pretty much be a loss of dps over STR + Divine Might, since DM adds an insightful STR bonus. You either end up raising your STR above your CHA by using DM, thus using STR anyway, or your STR stays lower than your CHA and DM does nothing. I suppose you could save the AP by not spending it on DM, but it still seems like a dps loss.

So give paladins Divine Presence as a multiselector to Divine Might.

Makes no sense that Paladins are so stat-starved and there's nothing being done to change that. Dex classes have numerous ways to get dex to hit and dmg. Wis classes have falconry or Knowledge of Battle (FvS). Int classes have harper. Paladins are still in a sore spot where they need to spend points in 4~5 out of 6 stats while most other classes are fine with just 2~3.

[Fedora1]

So give paladins Divine Presence as a multiselector to Divine Might.

Makes no sense that Paladins are so stat-starved and there's nothing being done to change that. Dex classes have numerous ways to get dex to hit and dmg. Wis classes have falconry or Knowledge of Battle (FvS). Int classes have harper. Paladins are still in a sore spot where they need to spend points in 4~5 out of 6 stats while most other classes are fine with just 2~3.

I see your point, but honestly I have never had an issue unless you want a bunch of skill points. STR is primary stat, CON is the same necessity as all classes, and CHA is your secondary stat. WIS does nothing, you just need a WIS stat item to cast your spells in a worst case scenario (1st life, no tomes, etc.). DEX and INT are not really needed.

Divine Presence is a good idea though.

[palladin9479]

So give paladins Divine Presence as a multiselector to Divine Might.

Makes no sense that Paladins are so stat-starved and there's nothing being done to change that. Dex classes have numerous ways to get dex to hit and dmg. Wis classes have falconry or Knowledge of Battle (FvS). Int classes have harper. Paladins are still in a sore spot where they need to spend points in 4~5 out of 6 stats while most other classes are fine with just 2~3.

That is only because your trying to run a Paladin using stats it's not designed for. Paladins need to worry about ~3 stats max, the rest can safely be ignored as tomes / sockets / gear will take care of them.

#1 Strength, as much as you can get as this is the Primary DPS stat, don't bother with Insightful.
#2 Constitution, as much as you can get as this is the Primary ~please don't die~ stat.
#3 Charisma, Enhancement + Insightful then call it a day. This is used to add more Strength and higher LoH, you will have more TU charges then you know what to do with.

Wisdom, Dexterity and Intelligence don't even enter into the equation. Force of Personality, something every Paladin should get, renders high Wisdom useless. Heavy Plate armor renders Dexterity almost useless, I have a +8 diamond of dex on an item along with my +8 tome and that's all I even think about. Intelligence I don't even bother with the diamond, just the +8 from tome. If I didn't like skills like Search, Balance and UMD so much then I wouldn't even bother starting at 12 INT, and there is an argument to be made about ignoring search and balance.

Because of how gear works in this game it's pretty easy to augment two stats to high levels, three becomes a stretch and is why we call it gear tetris. The best thing that happened to Paladin was sharn as you can put CHR +21 on a Legendary Celestial Topaz Ring. Then some combination of Legendary Collective Sight, Legendary Shattered Onx or Legendary Resplendant Fury to get the +10 Insightful Charisma. The +5 quality isn't really worth it over the set bonus's you can get.

Overall as a 20 SWF Paladin with KT and Longswords as a favored weapon I was able to get Full Strength, Charisma, Constitution while running both Legendary Part of the Family and Legendary Adherents of the Mists set bonus's. ED's were either Legendary Dreadnought or Divine Crusader, btw DC was pretty awesome on Paladin as it meshed so well with the hybrid DPS / Support play style. Was a little less personal damage then LD but was a significant boost to both damage and survivability of other melee's. No Remorse and Consecration + Sacred Ground + Crusade is the bomb.

[jsavorn]

So give paladins Divine Presence as a multiselector to Divine Might.

Makes no sense that Paladins are so stat-starved and there's nothing being done to change that. Dex classes have numerous ways to get dex to hit and dmg. Wis classes have falconry or Knowledge of Battle (FvS). Int classes have harper. Paladins are still in a sore spot where they need to spend points in 4~5 out of 6 stats while most other classes are fine with just 2~3.

Paladins are broke. Jack of all stats and jackass of all classes! This class should be based upon 2 stats. Cha and Con (for damage focus). It should have a basic buff that benefits any player who is near it, like an aura or sacred ground and should act as an on off aura and scale with level. There should be no need for any lengthy animations

Believe it or not Clas Royal has a card called Battle Healer that operates exactly how a paladin should. Please stop making small minor insignificant changes and overhaul the entire class. Paladin plain stink now and with the new changes the still will stink. Just look at the play rate, I bet you there will be even less play rate after these changes are implemented as everyone will be playing the alchemist.

Please please please revamp this entire class!

[palladin9479]

Paladins are broke. Jack of all stats and jackass of all classes! This class should be based upon 2 stats. Cha and Con (for damage focus)

Why in the hells would they do that? This is D&D and in D&D 3.5E and beyond Paladin is a Strength based class, always has been. Charisma is a secondary stat used to fuel the Paladin's divine abilities, it's never replaced Strength as the primary offensive stat. Hell the requirements for the Divine Might feat is 13 STR, 13 CHR and Power Attack. It's description is that it adds your Charisma modifier to your weapons damage for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus. The iconic Paladin ability, Smite Evil, adds the Charisma bonus to the attack roll and deals an extra point of damage per Paladin level. Notice how none of those replace strength or change how important it is. A paladin using a great sword is adding 1.5x their Strength modifier while Divine Might is only adding +1 damage per 2 Charisma, Smite Evil is still using Strength for attack and damage, and Paladin doesn't have any offensive spells with save DC's, and if it did then it would be Wisdom that gets used not Charisma.

If you want Charisma to damage go play Bard, that class is entirely built around having high Charisma. Charisma becomes your damage and the source of DC's on a multitude of offensive spells. With Weapon Finesse Bard can completely dump Strength and focus on Charisma, Constitution and Dexterity. Or even play a Melee based FVS, they get Charisma to hit and damage at level 2 along with Charisma fueling their offensive spells.

[ChadB123]

If you want Charisma to damage go play Bard, that class is entirely built around having high Charisma. Charisma becomes your damage and the source of DC's on a multitude of offensive spells. With Weapon Finesse Bard can completely dump Strength and focus on Charisma, Constitution and Dexterity. Or even play a Melee based FVS, they get Charisma to hit and damage at level 2 along with Charisma fueling their offensive spells.

No. Paladins need CHA to hit/dmg as a tier 5 or top core ability.

[Arkat]

No. Paladins need CHA to hit/dmg as a tier 5 or top core ability.

That would certainly go a long way towards fixing melee Paladins. How about ranged Paladins? Would you really want to give CHA bonus to hit and damage to them as well?

[Fedora1]

No. Paladins need CHA to hit/dmg as a tier 5 or top core ability.

That would certainly go a long way towards fixing melee Paladins. How about ranged Paladins? Would you really want to give CHA bonus to hit and damage to them as well?

I am still wondering how lowering dps on an already low-mediocre dps class "fixes" anything?

[palladin9479]

That would certainly go a long way towards fixing melee Paladins. How about ranged Paladins? Would you really want to give CHA bonus to hit and damage to them as well?

How would this help melee paladins? You realize that it's a significant DPS loss to use Charisma over Strength right?

I am still wondering how lowering dps on an already low-mediocre dps class "fixes" anything?

I don't think they realize how the math works out here. At cap a Paladin can reach over 120 Strength due to Divine Might, Charisma can't get close to that. Non-Strength builds are used because those stats provide additional functionality for that class, INT for trappers or wizards, WIS for clerics and monks, CHR for Bards and FVS's. Paladin is in the same group as Fighter and Barbarian, Strength is almost always the best option, with Constitution getting a nod from Dwarf builds. If there was an alternative stat profile, it should be Constitution.

Something I noticed was that the Holy Combatant line of enhancements are very weak compared to their counterparts in other class's. It's +1/1/1/1/2 for a total of +6 damage.

Fighter Kensei, which is a similar type of weapon exclusive enhancement is +1/2/2/2/3 for a total of +10 damage.

The Holy Combatant line should be upgraded to be in line with those Kensei bonus's as they fundamentally are the same thing, weapon group exclusive bonus's.

[ChadB123]

How would this help melee paladins? You realize that it's a significant DPS loss to use Charisma over Strength right?

Not if they add Divine Presence to Divine Might. It would not be a DPS loss.

[GoldyGopher]

It is a fairly fun build to play, the character was a true paladin to begin with. The change to a multi class is a direct result of the higher specialized DPS being downgraded and base DPS being propagated at a lower level in comparison to other dps characters. I am the first to tell you I could have done a better job at min/maxing the build I am playing, but I was more concerned with it feeling like a KotC than a massive DPS build.

The rule with fighter is you either go a little or you go a lot, you never do the the middle. Fighter has all it's power a the low (6 or less) and high end (14 to 20) with very little in the middle. I'd convert those MNK levels to fighter or paladin, or convert the fighter levels to monk and so forth. Honestly mixing Fighter and Paladin doesn't get you much as they share a lot of things that don't stack well, Fighter + Cleric is usually a better combination.

As I said in my post the purpose of the build was to feel like I was playing a KotC build rather than min/maxing to create the highest DPS possible for a melee build, which I could have done. I have a similar build using cleric rather than fighter and slightly different level break downs which has a much higher output of DPS. And that is honestly part of the problem as well.