U45 Preview 1: Balance: Knight of the Chalice Changes

[J-mann]

I think it should definitely be two weapons just so Bladeforged get some benefit from it. I would prefer Greatswords and Mauls personally. But bastard swords would also make a lot of sense.

Mauls are pretty pointless without silvanus. I would like to see a undead crit immunity break for pally though that would be cool.

[SocratesBastardSon]

Could you please add Bastard swords to this?

Greatswords and Bastard swords rather than just greatswords?

^^^ Yes please, this. ^^^
I think of BSword + board as being more classically Paladin-ish than any other weapon.

+1

[ChadB123]

My general feedback about the Paladin and Knight of the Chalice changes is that it's a step in the right direction. However, I do suggest tweaking a few enhancements, and adding/replacing a couple to make this class and tree a viable alternative to the current DPS meta. My main problem is that while I understanding keeping the tree thematic, too much of it's power is niche and situational. Please, adjust enhancements to make kotc more generally useful.

Tier 2:
[*]Divine Might: Unchanged

Add a multiselector, allowing players to also choose Divine Presence (War Soul tree).

Tier 3:
[*]Divine Sacrifice: Add +2[w], add in Passion's effects (upgraded): On damage: gain +15 Temporary SP and +10 Melee and Ranged Power for 10 seconds if you strike an Undead or Evil Outsider with this attack.

• NEW: Multiselector: Ranged attack version.

Consider changing to: On damage: gain +10 Temporary SP and +5 Melee and Ranged Power for 10 seconds.

Tier 4:[*]Censure Demons: Unchanged (shifts right in the tree)

Completely replace with this variation of Censure Outsiders: You gain on vorpal: Stun Evil creatures for 3 seconds. Gain +5 melee power.

Tier 5:
[LIST][*]Replaced With: Ascendant Training: +2 to hit and damage with all weapons. An additional +2 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. Whenever you attack an undead or evil outsider with a Favored Weapon, you gain a stack of Blessed Purpose: +3 Sacred Bonus to Melee and Ranged Power that lasts for 6 seconds. You can acquire up to 15 stacks by continuing to attack Undead or Evil Outsiders. Switching to a non-Favored Weapon will reset your stacks.

This is entirely too situational. It's a great ability if you're attacking the right monsters, but almost useless if not. I suggest:
Ascendant Training: +2 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. You gain Undead and Evil Outsiders as a favored enemy. Additionally, whenever you attack with a Favored Weapon, you gain a stack of Blessed Purpose: +2 Bonus to Melee and Ranged Power that lasts for 6 seconds. You can acquire up to 10 stacks by continuing to attack. Switching to a non-Favored Weapon will reset your stacks.

Changing the ability to this does three things. The melee bonus works regardless of monster type, the melee bonus doesn't conflict the Celestial Champion from Divine Crusader, and it stays thematic relying on favored weapons and favored enemies. Core 6 of kotc could be adjusted to 20 maximum Blessed Purpose stacks.

[*]Censure Outsiders: Bonus changes to +10 Melee and Ranged Power. Also adds "All other Evil creatures are instead Dazed for six seconds". Shifts right in the tree.

EDIT: As a tier five ability, replace this with the option of using Charisma for to hit and damage with favored weapons.

Spell Changes:
[LIST][*]Stalwart Pact: Delete current functionality: This now grants you +1 Sacred bonus to Melee and Ranged power per caster level for its duration.

Great change, but again, the sacred bonus conflicts with Divine Crusader and, if left unchanged, also with Ascendant Training.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

Could we get greataxe added as a favoured weapon to one of the higher tier enhancements? I liked playing as a Dwarf Paladin KotC who used a greataxe back in the day. It would be great if that was viable once again.

[Xgya]

Could we get greataxe added as a favoured weapon to one of the higher tier enhancements? I liked playing as a Dwarf Paladin KotC who used a greataxe back in the day. It would be great if that was viable once again.

Would it be broken-tier if it just said 'all two-handed weapons'?
Greatclubs, mauls (I know Sylvanus covers those, but the Lord of Blades covers greatswords and we're still getting those!), falchions.

Sylvanus Paladins will already have the maul favored weapon, and this won't give the Sylvanus feat that makes the mauls that powerful to all of them, just the ability to smoosh skeletons into fine bone dust.

[john0]

If i have the silvanus deity with the blessing of silvanus +2 crit range for mauls, and i gain new favoured weapons does that crit range apply to the new weapons?

Adept Combatant: +1 to hit and damage with all weapons. Longswords, Battle Axes, Heavy Maces, Morningstars, and War Hammers are considered as favored Weapons regardless of your religion

[Steelstar]

If i have the silvanus deity with the blessing of silvanus +2 crit range for mauls, and i gain new favoured weapons does that crit range apply to the new weapons?

Adept Combatant: +1 to hit and damage with all weapons. Longswords, Battle Axes, Heavy Maces, Morningstars, and War Hammers are considered as favored Weapons regardless of your religion

As of U45: If it says "Favored Weapons", it's all Favored Weapons. If it names a specific weapon, it's only that specific weapon. Silvanus' active (along with Vol's active, which does this also) are not planned for change in that regard.

[Lagy]

Add a multiselector, allowing players to also choose Divine Presence (War Soul tree).

on that note, a option for divine might to benefit ranged paladins somehow would be nice; since its one of the major factors in paladins damage, and its ability to deal with being so multi attribute dependent.

[Ziggypaper2]

^^^ Yes please, this. ^^^
I think of BSword + board as being more classically Paladin-ish than any other weapon.

+1

With an additional +1 bonus from me.

[palladin9479]

As of U45: If it says "Favored Weapons", it's all Favored Weapons. If it names a specific weapon, it's only that specific weapon. Silvanus' active (along with Vol's active, which does this also) are not planned for change in that regard.

Is there ever a plan to address the massive disparity between the different deity weapon benefits? Some are completely useless, others are mostly useless, a few are useful and one is god tier broken. The god tier broken one just happens to require someone buy an iconic and spend on a +1 lesser heart.

Coincidence? The community thinks not.

[Zites]

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

Here's our current plan for KOTC for Update 45. Our goals are to:

• Increase the overall viability of DPS Weapon-based Paladins
• Move abilities in the tree that augment Paladin feats out of tiers where you don't have the feat yet (Remove Disease, Turn Undead, etc)
• Provide some incentive to use Favored Weapons as well as add synergy with alternate Favored Weapons from Wood Elf, Inquisitive, Divine Crusader

Basic Paladin:

• Remove Disease now starts with 4 charges/rest.
• Level 1 Paladins get a Ranged version of the Smite Evil feat.

Overall Divines:
Changes to Deity Feat Structure have been made to bring alternate-Favored-Weapons up to speed with "traditional" ones, and to make respeccing into a new Deity easier. For Divines using their Deity's Favored Weapon, these changes should be a net zero change in Attack/Damage.

• "Follower" Deity Feats (usually obtained with your first Divine level) now designate your Deity's weapon as a "Favored Weapon", grant proficiency with that weapon, and grant +1 to Attack with all Favored Weapons.
• "Child of" Deity Feats (the level 3 Deity Feats) have been replaced with a single new Feat, "Child of Faith: Your connection to your Deity strengthens. You gain bonuses to Attack and Damage rolls with all Favored Weapons you wield. Simple and Martial Favored Weapons gain +2 to Attack and Damage. Exotic Favored Weapons gain +1 to Attack and Damage." Players with existing "Child of" Feats have had them replaced with this Feat. This feat is gained by the same methods and has the same prerequisites as the old "Child of" Feats.
• "Beloved of" Deity Feats (the level 12 Deity Feats) have been replaced with a single new Feat, "Beloved of the Divine: Your connection to your Deity strengthens. You gain bonuses to Attack and Damage rolls with all Favored Weapons you wield: Simple Favored Weapons gain +3 to Attack and Damage. Martial Favored Weapons gain +2 to Attack and Damage. Exotic Favored Weapons gain +1 to Attack and Damage." Players with existing "Beloved of" Feats have had them replaced with this Feat. This feat is gained by the same methods and has the same prerequisites as the old "Beloved of" Feats.
• Characters with at least 6 Divine levels can now take a new feat in place of the Active feat related to their Deity: "Search the Soul: You are seeking guidance to new paths of Faith. Passive: You gain +3 to the Concentration skill. As this Feat has no particular required Deity, while you have this feat (and assuming you meet all other requirements), you can exchange your Deity with a Feat Exchange (using normal Feat Exchange rules and costs).

Knight of the Chalice:

Cores:

• Light Damage in the Cores now scales with 200% Melee or Ranged Power, in addition to other changes below.
• Core 1: Unchanged.
• Core 2: Unchanged.
• Core 3: In addition to what this already does, you also gain +3 Remove Disease Charges and your Remove Disease now applies Greater Restoration to your target.
• Core 4: In addition to what this already does: Sealed Life: Immunity to Energy Drain.
• Core 5: Unchanged.
• Core 6: In addition to what this already does: Your Aura of Courage now grants allies a +3% Sacred Bonus to melee and ranged damage. Blessed Purpose now stacks up to 25 times.

Tier 1:

• Extra Turning: Removed, added to Tier 4.
  
  • Replaced With: Holy Combatant: +1 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons.
  
  
• Extra Smite: MOVED but otherwise unchanged
• NEW: Shieldbreaker: +1/2/3 to Sunder DCs. (Sunder DCs are now used in Holy Retribution).
• Extra Remove Disease: Removed, Added to Core 3
  
  • Replaced With: Knight's Authority: Multiselector: Active that debuffs Will, Fortitude, or Reflex. (This is a copy of Swash's Insults with different flavor, multiselector that lets them debuff enemy saves.)
  
  
• Attack Boost: Removed, made multiselector with Power Boost in Tier 2
  
  • Replaced With: Knight's Command: +1/2/3 to Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Concentration. Rank 3: +1 to Fortitude Saves

Tier 2:

• Improved Turning: Removed, added to Tier 4.
  
  • Replaced With: Adept Combatant: +1 to hit and damage with all weapons. Longswords, Battle Axes, Heavy Maces, Morningstars, and War Hammers are considered as favored Weapons regardless of your religion.
  
  
• Divine Might: Unchanged
• Rally:Unchanged
• Exalted Cleave: Reduced to 1 rank at 2AP (with third rank's effects)
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged attack version.
  
  
• Melee/Ranged Power Boost: Unchanged
  
  • MOVED: Multiselector: AB Attack

Tier 3:

• Improved Restoration: Removed, added to Core 3
  
  • Replaced With: Holy Combatant: +2 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. Greatswords are considered as favored Weapons regardless of your religion.
  
  
• Divine Sacrifice: Add +2[w], add in Passion's effects (upgraded): On damage: gain +15 Temporary SP and +10 Melee and Ranged Power for 10 seconds if you strike an Undead or Evil Outsider with this attack.
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged attack version.
  
  
• Vigor of Life: REMOVED, rolled into T4 and T5.
  
  • Replaced With: Lead the Charge: +2/3/5[w], sprint forward toward your target and deliver a single-target blow. 6 second cooldown. (1ap per rank). This works like Vanguard's Shield Charge, but it's single-target and works with any Melee weapon.
  
  
• Exalted Smite: Rolls in Empowered Smite: Your Smite Evil and Exalted Smite abilities increases Melee Power by 5 for 10 seconds.
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged attack version.
  
  
• Ability Score: Unchanged

Tier 4:

• Passion: Removed, added to Divine Sacrifice.
  
  • Replaced With: Knight's Training: +1 to hit and damage with all weapons and +1 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. You gain the Knight's Training feat.
  
  
• Censure Demons: Unchanged (shifts right in the tree)
• Vigor of Life: Now +30 Positive Healing Amp and -30 Negative Healing Amp.
  
  • NOTE: Vigor of Life now actually reduces Negative Healing Amp, as opposed to reducing Negative Vulnerability as it was doing before.
  
  
• Empowered Smite: Removed, rolled into Exalted Smite
  
  • Replaced With: Improved Turning: You gain +1/2/3 use of Turn Undead per rest. You also count as 1/2/3 level higher when turning undead and add 2/4/6 to the number of hit dice turned. Finally, your Turn Undead ability now also deals 6d6/12d6/18d6 light damage to nearby undead. Scales with 200% Melee Power.
  
  
• Ability Score: Unchanged

Tier 5:

• Sealed Life: Removed, added to Core 4.
  
  • Replaced With: Ascendant Training: +2 to hit and damage with all weapons. An additional +2 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. Whenever you attack an undead or evil outsider with a Favored Weapon, you gain a stack of Blessed Purpose: +3 Sacred Bonus to Melee and Ranged Power that lasts for 6 seconds. You can acquire up to 15 stacks by continuing to attack Undead or Evil Outsiders. Switching to a non-Favored Weapon will reset your stacks.
  
  
• Censure Outsiders: Bonus changes to +10 Melee and Ranged Power. Also adds "All other Evil creatures are instead Dazed for six seconds". Shifts right in the tree.
• Vigor of Life: Now +30/-30, as the previous tier.
• Avenging Cleave: Reduced to 1 rank at 2AP (with third rank's effects).
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged attack version.
  
  
• Holy Retribution: Holy Retribution: No longer takes Turn Undead charges. Now only 1 Rank. "Melee Channel Divinity: Executes a powerful holy cleave against nearby targets that deals +5[W] damage, 100 extra holy damage that scales with 200% Melee or Ranged Power, -6 to all ability scores for ten seconds, and recharges one Smite Evil charge to you. On Damage: Evil creatures may be forced to make a Will save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Sunder Bonuses) or be destroyed. Evil creatures under 1000 HP must always make this save or die. Evil creatures between 5000 and 1000 HP have a 50% chance to be forced to make this save or die. Evil creatures with more than 5000 HP have a 33% chance to be forced to make this save or die." 30 second cooldown.
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged version

Spell Changes:

• Bless: Now scales with caster level - 1 debuff/buff level per 5 levels
• Angelskin Now grants +1 Sacred bonus to AC and +1 Sacred bonus to PRR per caster level.
• Prayer: Now scales with caster level - 1 debuff/buff level per 5 levels
• Stalwart Pact: Delete current functionality: This now grants you +1 Sacred bonus to Melee and Ranged power per caster level for its duration.
• Zeal: Added 10% Doubleshot

Known Issues

• N/A

Paladin's roles Tank, Support, DPS.

Pallys and THFighter sure seem to get some interesting responses in deepReap.

Tanks are welcome in non-raids, if you can't get cc's as cc's are preferred for their helpless/debuff power, constancy and reliability.

Paladin are not DPS in R6-10.

Paladin are the weakest support characters in the game.

So we the players are left with 1 niche spot for pally raid tank or if no cc's sometimes tank reap.

The alternative is to make 1 of the options top tier while reducing others in this case 1 as support is already weak.

So how to lower defense while increasing offense, simply give massive power to Knight of the Chalice Enhancements Core abilities 5 and 6 make them cost 4-6 points each, this will lock out the exact amount of Defense necessary to Make Paladin Great Again.

[droid327]

on that note, a option for divine might to benefit ranged paladins somehow would be nice; since its one of the major factors in paladins damage, and its ability to deal with being so multi attribute dependent.

Ranged FvS says "ha good luck with that" They specifically disallowed the FvS trances from working with ranged - even though the only ranged favored weapon at the time was Longbow...

Ostensibly, you could take Bow Strength for Longbow and then regular DM would give you a benefit (though that'd make you DEX to hit STR to dmg and CHA trance, not ideal). So its only really a question for Xbow in Inqui, and I really doubt they're going to add a trance just for that.

[Ziggypaper2]

I am surprised we are not seeing an enhancement pick that acts like FvS Grace or Knowledge of Battle for the KotC. Honestly I find Divine Might as a weak option considering what is available via feat or enhancement trees. Perhaps an Enhancement called Crusader's Gusto that uses CON for attack/damage? CON doesn't get alot of love and this could be a good way to enhance the front liner model of the tree.

[Carpone]

^^^ Yes please, this. ^^^
I think of BSword + board as being more classically Paladin-ish than any other weapon.

+1

Watch Strimtom's video with SteelStar, who talks about why BSword isn't a favored weapon for paladins.

[Carpone]

EDIT: As a tier five ability, replace this with the option of using Charisma for to hit and damage with favored weapons.

Ooooh. Love this idea.

[Khurse]

Maybe a stupid question... But do sacred bonuses stack? A lot of the "plus melee power" bonuses are sacred.. So there seems to be a lot of... Redundancy..
Unless I'm not remembering correctly and they do stack..

[Kilgrave]

Holy Retribution: No longer takes Turn Undead charges. Now only 1 Rank. "Melee Channel Divinity: Executes a powerful holy cleave against nearby targets that deals +5[W] damage, 100 extra holy damage that scales with 200% Melee or Ranged Power, -6 to all ability scores for ten seconds, and recharges one Smite Evil charge to you. " (30 second cooldown.) WHY? IF YOU HAVE TO WAIT 30 SECOND COOLDOWN NO ONE WILL USE IT

[Pizzaiolo]

I am surprised we are not seeing an enhancement pick that acts like FvS Grace or Knowledge of Battle for the KotC. Honestly I find Divine Might as a weak option considering what is available via feat or enhancement trees. Perhaps an Enhancement called Crusader's Gusto that uses CON for attack/damage? CON doesn't get alot of love and this could be a good way to enhance the front liner model of the tree.

Indeed. The focus of this update seems to give more dps to paladins, but still lack a 'cha to hit/dmg'. Can we get this?
Maybe a core of KoTC, paladin min lvl or even as a feat or a tree like a harper/falcon?

[palladin9479]

Well why would a Paladin want a Charisma to whatever? Divine Might adds your Charisma bonus to your Strength as an Insight bonus, this makes Paladin universally a Strength based job. Paladin doesn't have any offensive spells that would use CHR for DC's, Turn Undead is universally a really bad ability past mid heroics and is instead used to fuel other Divine abilities. DM alone gives +36~40 Strength, highest item based insight bonus is +9/10 so there ya go.

Just trying to see why on earth you'd want Paladin to use Charisma for it's melee? Bard, Sorc, FVS and Warlock I can understand, but not Paladin.

On another note, any word on increasing the light damage dice on the cores? Currently they are too low to be worth much of anything.

[Zites]

Paladin's roles Tank, Support, DPS.

Pallys and THFighter sure seem to get some interesting responses in deepReap.

Tanks are welcome in non-raids, if you can't get cc's as cc's are preferred for their helpless/debuff power, constancy and reliability.

Paladin are not DPS in R6-10.

Paladin are the weakest support characters in the game.

So we the players are left with 1 niche spot for pally raid tank or if no cc's sometimes tank reap.

The alternative is to make 1 of the options top tier while reducing others in this case 1 as support is already weak.

So how to lower defense while increasing offense, simply give massive power to Knight of the Chalice Enhancements Core abilities 5 and 6 make them cost 4-6 points each, this will lock out the exact amount of Defense necessary to Make Paladin Great Again.

Purpose change to Core abilities 5 and 6 through a toggle option offering choice between capstone cores per ap cost

Slayer of Evil IV and Champion of Greater Good

Slayer of Evil III: currant cost AP Cost: 1/ Slayer of Evil IV ap cost: 4
You now gain +4 to hit evil and undead creatures.
Your attacks now deal 5d6 additional Light damage/8d6 additional Light damage
You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +4 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by evil creatures.
Your vorpal hits against undead do an additional 500 damage/Your vorpal hits do an additional 100 damage and 500 damage against undead

Champion of Good: currant cost AP Cost: 1 /Champion of Greater Good ap cost: 6 prerequisite Slayer of Evil IV
You gain +4 Charisma and 10 Melee Power. /You gain +8 Charisma and 20 Melee Power.
The bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven are increased by an additional +2.
You deal 7d6 additional Light damage. /12d6 additional Light damage.
Weapons you wield Good aligned bypassing damage reduction. /Considered Good aligned and Flametouched, Cold Iron.
Aura of Courage grants allies a +3% Sacred Bonus to melee/ranged dmg./Grants you +7% Sacred Bonus to damage.
Blessed Purpose now stacks up to 25 times

edit: This would require a total AP cost of 51 to fill-out Champion of Greater Good.
2nd edit: Also these numbers might be off but even if you double the cost or reduce the benefit its a cool option for players.