U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

[0ldschool]

The problem was that IPS was killing 100% of the mobs before the melee could slowly waddle into range to swing their pathetic weak swords at it and do a tiny amount of damage.

The problem is solved now because IPS will only kill 80% of the mobs before the melee can slowly waddle into range to swing their pathetic weak swords at it and do a tiny amount of damage before getting one-shotted.

And now melee will feel like they are contributing.

OK, thanks. This is so far outside of my experience that I don't really know what to say. Are you talking about Mechanics and bow users killing 100% of the mobs, or was this an inquisitive specific problem? I'm not a high reaper player obviously, and don't raid much at all, so that may explain my ignorance. It's becoming clear to me that I'm really bad at this game.

[DRoark]

Seeing the impact this is going to have on the NON-Inquisitor underpowered ranged player base, I want to see how fast they backpedal
when they realize this only happened after that tree went live, and they can't fix it with a blanket ranged DPS nerf-a-palooza. IPS feat didn't
"sneak up on them" as being an issue for over a decade, but suddenly it's an OMG!! ISSUE!! with the design team? Yeah, suuuure.

Start backpedaling, we want apologies in the form of DDO points (not SSG stock) for broken stuff even casual players knew about.

Oh, and we've already seen poison cleave crits in melee with the alchemist over 5k... with a STAFF.... but you nerf arrows. Good job.

[ahpook]

Something that should be added to all ranged damage ... damage reduction over distance...


The further away you are the less damage you do... the whole 10 mile ranged full dps is pretty much bs... for players and mobs..

This. Adding ranges would give a lot of options to tweak ranged weapon styles. It must be nearly impossible for the devs to implement as they keep ignoring this rather obvious requirement for ranged weapons.

The other thing they should look at is the speed at which characters can run backward while firing a ranged weapon. The kiting certainly helps make ranged viable. With the IPS nerf now I just have to run backwards 20% longer.

It would have been interesting to watch the dev meetings where they discussed how to make ranged fixes. Did they only allot 10 minutes because it seems that they avoided doing anything that adds complexity.

I should add that I am happy to see some Inquisitor nerfs and these are "fine" but they could have done better and not impacted Bow users as much.

[barecm]

Ok, so maybe I am going to change my tactics. I just decided when talking about his dumpster fire with some guildies… I am going pure fear arrows and will annoy the **** out of all the melee folks this change is supposed to help. Have fun chasing things. But hey, it has an instakill mechanic and is crowd control.

Remember how easy it was when your AA could paralyze everything for you to hit, without being hit... no more of that. Fear arrows it is!

Who is with me?!?!

[Krell]

I think some clarification on the design objectives would help. I see “Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?” and you’re “Looking in the context of ranged combat vs. melee combat”. But what isn’t clear is if the goal is for a ranged build that primarily just brings dps to have around the same damage output as a melee build that also primarily just brings dps, or is the goal for ranged to have less dps? If so a little less or a lot less? What is the target for ranged vs melee? The way the post reads, Inquis needs to be reduced a lot to be balanced with melee, gxbow needs to be reduced some, and repeater a little. But in high reaper I only see Inquis usually but not always out performing dps focused melee builds. I don’t see gxbow performing half as well as well built melee dps builds and the few times I saw repeaters, they were worse than gxbow. When in game experience doesn’t align with the proposed changes here, it makes me question if we are making invalid assumptions regarding the design objectives and if some additional clarification could help reconcile how these changes align with those objectives.

[Ausdoerrt]

Ok, so maybe I am going to change my tactics. I just decided when talking about his dumpster fire with some guildies… I am going pure fear arrows and will annoy the **** out of all the melee folks this change is supposed to help. Have fun chasing things. But hey, it has an instakill mechanic and is crowd control.

Remember how easy it was when your AA could paralyze everything for you to hit, without being hit... no more of that. Fear arrows it is!

Who is with me?!?!

This is actually hilarious, good job. I'd also suggest stocking Grease scrolls or splashing caster to cast stuff like obscuring mist / sleet storm etc while you use fear arrows. Especially in raids.

Oh, and don't forget to use Dispelling Arrow every chance you get - both CC and DPS casters will LOVE that (I believe it STILL isn't fixed and removes dots, debuffs and CC).

P.S. Disclaimer: also easy way to get blacklisted from ever grouping on the server you play, ever.

They are trying to fix a mistake with another mistake. It won’t end well for anyone unless they are willing and able to accept this change is indeed a mistake and rework it before it goes live.

To be fair, they could come back with a good "ranged pass" to follow up. But the time in between (anywhere from months to years) will likely be miserable for bow users.

[barecm]

To be fair, they could come back with a good "ranged pass" to follow up. But the time in between (anywhere from months to years) will likely be miserable for bow users.

I am fine with that. My only point is to wait to do these nerfs until that pass is ready. I do not think it is unreasonable actually.

[Zistra]

I'm completely opposed to the IPS nerf. Even if you know how to do it properly, getting mobs decently lined up and targeting the furthest mob is not an easy thing to pull off in combat. Add the requirements to get the feat in the first place (2 prereq feats, 11 BAB and a rather high stat requirement.. that isn't even the primary stat used by most ranged users anymore), and it deserves to provide every bit of DPS it currently does. At an absolute, final, bare minimum, it should do 100% damage to the targeted mob and 80% damage to all others. I think that's a ridiculous nerf for one of the most challenging AoE damage processes in-game, but additionally forcing ranged users to change stances when facing a boss adds (considerable) insult to already considerable injury.

Likewise, the proposed Archer's Focus changes are useless nonsense. At 1 stack per second (aside from special attack stacks), nobody's ever going to get a decent AF stack going if it resets to zero when you change targets. Have it lose 2-3 stacks, fine. And lose a stack every few seconds with no attacks, too. But start from zero? Ridiculous.

[ahpook]

2. IPS is a feat with steep requirements. IMO it's fair for a player to expect a feat that you acquire in a series and with increasing requirements (Precise Shot, then Improved Precise Shot) doesn't actually penalize you for using it versus the earlier feat in the series. You can adhere to that sort of rule if you apply the 20% penalty only to the 2nd..nth mobs that are hit. First mob still takes full damage. For players who aren't as adept with swapping stances fast and so on, this would hit them less harshly. They could leave IPS on and not be penalized when they're attacking one target. I think that's a better design than having the latter feat/stance end up being frequently worse than the earlier feat/stance.

This is along the lines of what I was going to pitch but I was going to be a little harsher. Full damage on target, 80% on 2nd, 60% on 3rd, ... Puts a max of 5 damaged mobs per shot. If this is harsh it could be -10% or -15% per. Much better than having to mess with the stance all the time.

[ahpook]

... on the other end IPS takes great skill ....

you still are rarely able to hit more than 2 mobs at a time.

The first half of that is marketing. It takes a bit of skill to target the guy in the back and maneuver but certainly not "great" skill.

As for the 2nd part, you can often only hit 2 mobs but that is because the other ones are dying so fast. At the start of finding a gang to attack you will usually be hitting more than 2 up until they are dying off.

But you are right, that hard data should be used. I would assume that SSG was doing such but I may be optimistic.

[FuzzierSage]

I'm completely opposed to the IPS nerf. Even if you know how to do it properly, getting mobs decently lined up and targeting the furthest mob is not an easy thing to pull off in combat. Add the requirements to get the feat in the first place (2 prereq feats, 11 BAB and a rather high stat requirement.. that isn't even the primary stat used by most ranged users anymore), and it deserves to provide every bit of DPS it currently does. At an absolute, final, bare minimum, it should do 100% damage to the targeted mob and 80% damage to all others. I think that's a ridiculous nerf for one of the most challenging AoE damage processes in-game, but additionally forcing ranged users to change stances when facing a boss adds (considerable) insult to already considerable injury.

Likewise, the proposed Archer's Focus changes are useless nonsense. At 1 stack per second (aside from special attack stacks), nobody's ever going to get a decent AF stack going if it resets to zero when you change targets. Have it lose 2-3 stacks, fine. And lose a stack every few seconds with no attacks, too. But start from zero? Ridiculous.

At this point they'd be better off just removing Archer's Focus entirely, bake a little bit of its buff into the feat, have IPS remove that buff, and then have people just toggle IPS on and off to go from "AoE" to "single-target".

It'd accomplish the same thing but would slightly cut down on the button bloat.

[ahpook]

... not just really clear why IPS is suddenly a problem now, after 14 years ...

A lot of people have being saying something such as this. I think IPS has always been a problem but the low effectiveness of ranged builds has hidden it. Inquisitor has made it far more obvious. But if you look back at any viable ranged build (monkcher, paralyzing AA) IPS was always one of the most significant factors in its success. It is essentially a feat that more than doubles the DPS (or the effectiveness of paralyzing arrows). Perhaps it should have been a single shot with a cool down (much like Cleave) rather than a stance. I don't have a problem with toning down IPS but the 20% blanket reduction doesn't seem all that great as it makes one have to mess with the stances more than desirable especially if the cool downs and activation times haven't been removed.

[Andoir]

Improved Precise Shot is not the problem. No Holds Barred and Endless Fusillade being action boosts. That is the problem.
I haven't seen anyone complaining about Manyshot coupled with Improved Precise Shot. With an uptime of 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, I wouldn't expect to either.

Having 12 or 15 (you can get more) action boosts between shrines and the uptime of those action boosts being 18 seconds out of every 30...coupled with Improved Precise Shot?
Nobody but Casters can come close to competing with that kind of On-Demand A.O.E. burst. It's ridiculous.

You just made a new manyshot feat for simple throwing weapons. Uptime? 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes.
Why not turn Endless Fusillade and No Holds Barred into the same feat with ALL crossbows? Hell, you could turn into one Feat then.

Having Inquisitive Rogues being able to stack two types of scaling (Sneak Attack & Law) damage per bolt..that turned out a tad obscene too, didn't it?

The issue with Archer's Focus losing stacks when switching enemies...That seems complicated. Both to code and to manage as a ranged player.
If you want to promote single target damage while ranged, completely revamp Archer's focus into 5th Edition's Hunter's Mark.
"Activate Hunter's Mark on a single Enemy: While attacking this enemy you add stacks of damage every X seconds. When you stop attacking this enemy, stacks decrement every X seconds." Something like that.

Regards,
Watts

[barecm]

Can we just limit the nerfs to inquisitive for the time being and have the understanding that we will come back around to IPs when you are ready to roll out ALL the ranged changes including whatever is planned for bows? I think most, if not all, of this vitriol will go away as a result of just using some sensibility here. Leaving bows broken for an indefinite timeline just is not sitting well with the community. Even if that means that inquisitive/ xbows aren't quite where you want them, at least you are not breaking one thing to fix another.

[MistaMagic]

I don't suppose having all of the past lives and 115 Reaper points has anything to do with how easy your Inquisitive had it?

I guarantee that the VAST majority of players aren't getting zappy's results.

Well you know me and how good my toons are and NO I do not get these results. So unless I am missing something this guy is actualy telling Porky Pies

[OfElectricMen]

Let me know when I can attack as many times in a 6-second period with a long or short bow as any melee fighter can with any melee weapon without having to use Manyshot, doubleshot, or some other clicky or special effect.

Until that happens, you're doing bows wrong. no matter what you nerf or boost with regards to ranged combat.


Standard Actions

Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.

Melee Attacks
With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).

Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity
Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).

"Armed" Unarmed Attacks
Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

Unarmed Strike Damage
An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character’s unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of damage, while a Large character’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

Dealing Lethal Damage
You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.

Ranged Attacks
With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.

[MistaMagic]

So as IPS is the route of all ranged OP dps are you now going to reverse the munkcher nerfs as it was obviously IPS that caused them to be so OP?

[PsychoBlonde]

Casting a spell doesn't interrupt the stacks, don't worry.

Testing stuff out on Lamannia is very important to us, we appreciate firsthand feedback quite a bit

Yeah, I tested it. It was literally impossible for me to ever get more than one stack because the target would be DEAD before I got a second one.

Like I said, this is dumb, and it's OBVIOUSLY dumb, and testing backs that up 100%.

[Xgemina]

A lot of people have being saying something such as this. I think IPS has always been a problem but the low effectiveness of ranged builds has hidden it. Inquisitor has made it far more obvious. But if you look back at any viable ranged build (monkcher, paralyzing AA) IPS was always one of the most significant factors in its success. It is essentially a feat that more than doubles the DPS (or the effectiveness of paralyzing arrows). Perhaps it should have been a single shot with a cool down (much like Cleave) rather than a stance. I don't have a problem with toning down IPS but the 20% blanket reduction doesn't seem all that great as it makes one have to mess with the stances more than desirable especially if the cool downs and activation times haven't been removed.

Yep, I've been one of them. It's not a feat it's 3 of them + BAB 11 + Dex 19. If it was just a feat, then sure, I'd say it's too powerful, but it's not, it's an investment of 3 of 7 feats you get (leaving aside 11 levels of Ranger or fighter/artificer with extra feats).

Oh, any viable ranged build has it? Well yeah, just like nearly every THF build has PA and Cleave or every nuker has maximize or every DC caster has heighten. The idea that IPS has always been OP is ridiculous.

[PsychoBlonde]

Let me know when I can attack as many times in a 6-second period with a long or short bow as any melee fighter can with any melee weapon without having to use Manyshot, doubleshot, or some other clicky or special effect.

DING DING DING we have a winner!

This has been the problem since I started playing the game in 2010 and it has led to endless ill-advised tweaks that have *never done any good*. The ultimate problem with ranged is that THE BASIC ATTACK SPEED IS TOO LOW FOR NO GOOD REASON.

A fighter picking up a bow with zero ranged feats or special abilities should attack with that bow EXACTLY as fast as they attack when they pick up a sword with zero feats and special abilities. Crossbows and thrown weapons should require either the Rapid Reload or Quickdraw feat to reach this parity if you're sticking with some semblance of the D&D rules, but in the pen and paper game *you can shoot a bow just as fast as you can attack with a weapon*. Requiring an extra feat for thrown/crossbow to reach parity is reasonable, crossbows because they're simple weapons, (great crossbows and repeaters come with their own bonuses that make them Exotic), and thrown weapons because they are one-handed, enabling you to hold something in your offhand and get the bonuses from it. Once you have that basic condition set, it becomes a simple matter to balance the benefits of feats and class abilities from there. For instance, you could make Manyshot do what it ACTUALLY does in pnp, which, in terms of this game, would be a toggle that you can turn on, it gives you a penalty to hit and an always-on bonus to doubleshot based on your BAB. So simple.

Also in pnp IPS isn't some kind of god feat that lets you hit multiple enemies with the same shot. Granted, that one's harder to translate because there isn't cover in this game, and since it's a high-level feat with so many requirements it should do SOMETHING good. I'd say it would probably translate best as a universal bypass: gives you fort, PRR, and dodge bypass based on your BAB, and increases your sneak attack range (since your shots are more precise).

Even with that, ranged would still have low-ish attack speed because they only get a 20% boost from Rapid Shot, 15% from haste, and then whatever doubleshot you have on top of that, as opposed to Greater Two Weapon Fighting or the new Strikethrough which can effectively give you 100% (or more!) attack speed increase. Single weapon fighting also gives a big fat speed increase that would well outpace what's currently available to ranged. The only benefit ranged would still have attack-speed wise would be that doubleshot currently wraps and doublestrike does not, so in theory you can get a third proc.

Now that you have the basics set, you can go out and fiddle with how the various things like Thousand Star Throw or Shuriken Mastery or Whirling Wrists or multitude of missiles work. But if you guys would do THIS, you'd establish a solid foundation where it's easy to compare the effectiveness of melee and ranged and they are in the same functional universe where it comes to attack speed.

The whole problematic ranged-burst-damage model only EXISTS because of the incredibly arbitrary attack speed hole the initial game developers created. Get rid of this hole, and you don't NEED the crazy business with burst damage, and if you want to keep vestiges of it they can be much milder in scope and much less problematic to balance. AND it opens up options for my beloved build diversity because you won't be locked in to "you need every single ranged feat that exists to do ranged combat, PLUS an entire enhancement tree that's devoted to ranged combat on top of that".