U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

[Assassination]

Rapid Reload adjusts every Crossbow style individually, which in turn affects overall fire rate. Dual Crossbow's boost from that is now much lower than the other Crossbows. As I said above, Great Crossbows also took a nudge in this change (5%), and nothing else about Rapid Reload is changed.

How about Rapid Reload does not work with Inquisitive Tree?

[rabidfox]

I'm neither here nor there on most of these changes. But I'm sad for what'll do to my Elven Arcane Archer & FvS bow builds. There were already in a weakish place and now the IPS change is gonna hit them hard. I wish there was some kind of stop gap tossed in for all bow setups (not just deepwood) until bows get the work being mentioned for later this year.

[Yamani]

[*][*]Multitude of Missiles: Requires Point Blank Shot and +6 Base Attack Bonus: For the next 20 seconds, while wielding a Simple Thrown Weapon add 120 to your Doubleshot and 4x your Base Attack Bonus to Ranged Power. Shares a cooldown with Manyshot.

Why not make this a 1 minute cooldown to match 10k stars at least (although 10k stars is up for 30 seconds instead of 20)

[Steelstar]

Does the new Heavy Draw intentionally not stack with Shadow Arrows from the Arcane Archer tree? While the -5 Attack penalty being removed is nice, the bonus to critical multiplier does nothing for a bow user heavily invested in both the Arcane Archer and Deepwood Stalker trees.

I wouldn't particularly care if it were not for the proposed 20% damage reduction on IPS. As a bow user, these changes are just a straight 20% damage reduction, which is pretty massive, and I do not think the 10% ranged alacrity does much of anything to make up for it. Assuming it stacks on top of other speed bonuses, this only results in a few percent faster fire rate.

I would be interested in trying out the new Archer's Focus, especially with the movement and manyshot restrictions now removed. However, resetting stacks on hitting another target makes it virtually useless. I like hit_fido's suggestion in just removing a stack or two when hitting a new target. Ranged combat is pretty great for clearing trash, and having a "boss mode" stance is great, but I can't imagine the new Archer's Focus being good for either of these things.
When running through a quest, you won't reach very many stacks. The current version of AF would work more effectively for this. Of course, it would be ideal to use IPS most of the time, but 20% is still a huge reduction.
AF is already useful during boss fights. Just stand there and deal extra damage to the boss. With the new AF, when adds come into a boss fight, your options are to either not help your party members kill them, or help and have to start your focus all over again.
I don't think these are great options and AF is better left alone than having to deal with resets. Dropping stacks instead of resetting them is a better happy medium.

I also agree with what some others have said, that if inquisitors are too powerful, then the changes to IPS should apply to crossbows and not to longbows. I don't know what kind of logical sense that makes. Maybe longbows arrows have more momentum behind them than crossbow bolts and pierce through bodies better. Who knows... but I do know this is not fair to bow users.
As an aside, I do think Shadow Arrows and Heavy Draw should stack their bonuses to Critical Multiplier, especially with the changes to IPS. Otherwise, the 20% damage reduction is the real big issue here. I don't think this is a good change.

But those are just my thoughts. I hope they made sense.

Yes; it'd take a 63AP+ split to be there, and stacking them would drive that exact split into being optimal in a way that other bow builds (present or future) could not compete with.

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

[Steelstar]

How about Rapid Reload does not work with Inquisitive Tree?

That'd put them lower than they should be in terms of DPS. We don't want to nerf them that hard. The current set of changes keeps them competitive without invalidating other builds.

[Xgemina]

Yes; if you read the OP, the reasoning for this was explained under the heading "Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?"

I did read it and the fact remains that until Inq, no one was complaining about how Mech GXB, AA Ranger (heh) or any ranged build (for that matter) were over powered. Inq comes along with it's dual xbow, gunslinging play and now all the sudden IPS needs nerfed after being around for 13 years. Never mind that Inq gets +1 threat/crit multiplier at lvl 12 where any other tree (other than Vistani with daggers) you get one or the other. Or all the debuffs in the Inq tree, but no, it's IPS needs to get nerfed...along with the other dual xbow nerfs.

I get that Inq and dual xbows needed some work, but you're already reducing the law damage, doubleshot and reload speed, I think y'all are using too big of a hammer with the changes to IPS along with those.

[Assassination]

That'd put them lower than they should be in terms of DPS. We don't want to nerf them that hard. The current set of changes keeps them competitive without invalidating other builds.

Some of us thinks they should be nerfed much harder... Yes we do... 9 out of 10 melee players agree...

[ideal_insomnia]

I really don't like this whole "stick to damaging one target" thing. Inquisitives were in need of a nerf, no argument here, but these nerfs hit way too many other builds, and having less viable builds is never a good thing. I would very much appreciate a way to nerf Inquisitives that won't carpet bomb a dozen other builds.

[Gregen]

Yes; it'd take a 63AP+ split to be there, and stacking them would drive that exact split into being optimal in a way that other bow builds (present or future) could not compete with.

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

Ah, okay. That makes sense. Thanks for the response. I just hope the overall hit isn't too hard when the update goes live.

[Drwaz99]

3) We've done extensive internal testing with these changes already, but we'll also be keeping an eye on Lamannia and make changes where needed.

You said virtually the exact same thing when INQ was initially released and then ignored all the Lam (and subsequent regular forum) feedback that it was too much and yet here we are today. You reap what you sow.

[DRoark]

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

You're not going to able to sell that horse, it's already half-dead. There were no issues for a decade, about ranged doing damage in a line,
which isn't as effective as actual AOE builds, until we tossed in Inquisitor metas. Our BARD does more damage than our IPS ranger, because
he hits harder and in a cone. You may as well make it a blanket nerf-all-multiattack-to-anything parade of server bonfires.

From what we've seen so far, our guild arti's going melee cleave, and we lost all our rangers. Waiting a decade to murder a feat that made playing non-spell AOE builds tolerable is pitiful.

[Fedora1]

Okay, this here is not an improvement to Archer's Focus, this is a HUGE, HUGE nerf and means that Archer's Focus is basically ONLY useful for killing boss mobs that you fight EXCLUSIVELY by themselves. Currently, MOVING is what resets your stacks, so as long as you hold still you can DPS an entire room of mobs at full stacks to really get the damage in. When dealing with trash you should be switching targets frequently, which means you'll never get more than a stack or two before it goes away. And what if you have to switch targets to heal someone or cast a spell or something?!

This is dumb and I can TELL it's dumb without even TESTING it. If you want to improve Archer's Focus just REMOVE the "goes away when you move" limitation. Remove ALL "goes away" except from stacks EXPIRING. That would make it actually competitive with IPS, particularly in situations where it's quite hard to line mobs up.

Not only that, but it means no one will be using paralyzing arrows anymore either, which previously benefited from archer's focus, but was still sub-par dps, the trade off being CC on a room of trash mobs. Now you've further limited dps from an already sub-dps tactic.

[Arkat]

Really?!? So casters who hold monster / instakill their way through content is not completely op vs everything else in this game?

You say that as if DC spellcasters get to do that with no effort.

Believe me, getting the high DCs necessary to "instakill their way through combat" takes a HUGE amount of time and effort.

[droid327]

There were no issues for a decade, about ranged doing damage in a line,
which isn't as effective as actual AOE builds, until we tossed in Inquisitor metas.

Indeed! All aoe is not the same and linear aoe isn't nearly as useful as circular or cone. It wasn't an issue until inqui could actually do damage with a ranged build.

The addition of strikethrough finally looks like it's carved out rolespace nicely for the styles...twf is ST, thf is AOE cone, SWF is ST with easier restraints or hybrid thf with bsword, and ranged is linear aoe. Feels like you're solving the problem twice by nerfing ips while you're adding strike through.

Adjust the damage on ranged builds individually as needed, but the geometry of IPS is not itself a problem.

[barecm]

You say that as if DC spellcasters get to do that with no effort.

Believe me, getting the high DCs necessary to "instakill their way through combat" takes a HUGE amount of time and effort.

And yet still very prevalent and never addressed when we talk about OP combat styles. By effort I am assuming you mean wearing a bunch of gear that boosts your main stat and Appropriate DC items? Maybe it takes proper planning, but effort? Every well made character requires the right gear so....

[Lonnbeimnech]

[*][*]Improved Precise Shot now reduces Ranged Damage by 20% while active.[*][*]Rapid Reload now increases the reload speed of Great Crossbows, Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual Light Crossbows by less than before.[*][*]Dual Crossbow combat style now only uses 66% of your Doubleshot.[*][*]Inquisitive Law Dice now scale with 150% Ranged Power (was 200%)[*][*]"Improved Law" and "Greater Law" in Inquisitive now grant +1 Law Die (previously +2).

you guys really don't go for half measures, do you.

[Kaboom2112]

Nerfing IPS because Inquisitive is brokenly OP is insanely stupid.

[Ausdoerrt]

Gonna drop my opinion here, my main character has been AA for more lifes than i can count, this update is a big letdown on long/shortbows... Deepwood sniper is fine... But you need to boost AA! AA is the main archer class! Come on! Deepwood will be better than AA? i mean, Deepwood was suposed to be quite good on ranged as much it is on melee, and AA was suposed to be the best archer!


Can you guys think about it?

Man, you're dedicated, I've stopped playing my archer and moved to a new main ages ago. Feels nice to have a vaguely competent toon for a change. Bows are just not worth it - not now, not five years ago.

Also problem is, there's nothing much wrong with AA and DWS as such. The problem is with bows as part of ranged / as compared to other ranged styles. And it's not AA / DWS getting nerfed, it's bows (as part of ranged). So until they do something about bows, minor handouts to ranger trees aren't gonna offer much comfort.


P.S. I came to this thread excited at the thought of playing a ranged-focused Silver Flame paladin. Now I'm at a loss :/

[Clemeit]

The nerf to IPS is horrible. IPS was one of those very few abilities in DDO that added a tactical angle to the game. It was a decent feat as-is, but when used by a skilled player that could line up mobs correctly, it was devastatingly good. It made ranged builds fun to play, and it gave an advantage to players who really knew how to use it. Now? It still will, but the kick to classic ranged-typed builds is devastating. Inquisitive needed to be nerfed, but not rangers. They're bad enough already.

The new Archer's Focus is a joke. It will be useless in practically every situation except for bosses (which let's be honest, in 99% of content bosses are a joke anyways). At the very least, "Once per second" needs to go. Mobs are dead in less than a second in most content.

Archer's Focus should be kept as-is, except remove the "stationary" aspect. Making the stacks reset every time you hit a new mob is going to make for a useless feat.

[Ausdoerrt]

And yet still very prevalent and never addressed when we talk about OP combat styles. By effort I am assuming you mean wearing a bunch of gear that boosts your main stat and Appropriate DC items? Maybe it takes proper planning, but effort? Every well made character requires the right gear so....

Dude, I'm starting to build a DC-focused favored soul, and it's not nearly as easy as you say or think. Even forgetting the gear part of the equation (which is relevant for any build, but, shockingly, also takes effort), you're not getting a competent (let alone no-fail) DC caster without multiple past lives - as many as you can stomach, really - which is a ridiculous time investment. It takes years to where you get to just "dance in and clear the room".

Bottom line - if it were so easy, everyone would be doing it. In reality, competent DC casters per server are in low double if not single digits.

So maybe try to actually roll a first-life DC caster and take him to EEs - and then report back on how well you do