U45 Preview 1: Balance Changes Main Thread

[Atreyu]

A bit of a preview of a couple of changes we're tentatively planning for Lamannia Round 2:

Two Handed:

• The Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
• The Improved Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2.5x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
• The Greater Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 3x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.

Does this apply to Bastard Swords and Dwarven Waraxes? The previous preview (previewious?) didn't apply the 2X to those weapons, which will need something to compensate for the loss of glancing blows, if I understand these changes correctly.

As a S&B THF player (on the tanky side of things) I'm not seeing how the strikethrough changes will help a tank hold agro on multiple things that glancing blows now provide. Instead of hitting (and generating threat) on the 4-6 targets in front of me, I'd only get that on 1-2 targets. Two targets isn't that great for AOE damage. This would make THF feel more like TWF or SWF fighting, which I'm not a fan of the drill one target down then hit the next playstyle. I like the mini cleave playstyle that THF brings. I like to damage everything in front of me, even if its less damage per hit than strikethrough would bring.

The glancing blows also allow for a greater distribution of threat generation while tanking. In the THF strikethrough model I may be hitting 2 of the 6 targets, but the second hit will randomly be one of the 5 non targeted mobs in front of me rather than all of them. Granted the damage per hit may be greater, but if I'm not hitting them I'm not building threat on them. There's plenty of stuff out there still that can't be intimed and it's already hard enough to pull threat on groups off of DPS.

At what threshold does the number of mobs favor the glancing blow model or the strikethrough model? Most discussion I see on here is about using it while moving and improving single target DPS, which isn't what I take THF for. I take it for melee AOE dps, not single target. If I want single target DPS I'll go with a different weapon fighting style.

I know you guys are good at what you do so I'm hoping its just me missing something.

I'm still a bit shaken up after seeing Artax die so I might be missing it.

[Kinerd]

I encourage you to google the term hyperbole and consider the possibility that there are people who understand the implications of changes on what passes for endgame content better than you do.

i'm not sure how to parse this reply. if we agree that even at endgame THF will be mostly hitting 2 targets, whereas casters will still get CC checks on as many targets as they can get in the circle, what "implications" concern you?

[Khurse]

I like the changes mentioned, and wehre this seems to be going.
And I like the idea of moving Divine Insight to Battle Trance to group everything together.

But..

It is a (very small) nerf to KOTC for anyone at endgame.
Given a 50 Charisma. (Easily doable ). With divine might you gain 20 points to your strength. So +10 damage. Plus I can slot an insightful deadly 8 item. For 18 damage.
Now, with 50 Charisma , I get 10 damage, I can't slot an insightful deadly item. but I can slot insightful strength 10, for 5 extra damage. So 15 damage total.

For a built with 70 Charisma, I would have added 30 to strength, for 15 damage, plus the deadly for 23 total.
Now I get 15 damage, plus 5, for 20.
So it's about 3 points of damage.

This (to me) is OK, as long as the rest of the KOTC stuff works well, I don't mind this, there are some players that will though.

The real issue is- going forward, what kind of insightful deadly vs insightful strength items will we see? I suspect insightful deadly 10, 12, 15 will arrive before we see insightful strength 10-20.
Which will increase the "nerf" to KOTC a little more with each new item.

I don't know what an answer is offhand, as changing it to something that stacks with insightful deadly would be power creep to the extreme, but right now it is a minor nerf, but it's going to be bigger with each new endgame gear release.

[palladin9479]

Now take that +20 Insightful Strength and realize that your getting a 50% bonus on it's effect, so instead of +10 it's actually +15. That +30 gives a +22 effect instead of +15. The higher the stats grow the larger the nerf is, and at cap it's not a small nerf. All the +damage from the KoTC tree is being wiped out due to the Divine Might nerf, and yes it's a nerf. I've mentioned before that it should give +3/4 instead of +1/2, possibly being favored weapon exclusive or something.

[bloodnose13]

last lamaland visit i did try to work those two new defender enchanements in, and they made tree cost go up considerably to 51 ap for just essentials, that is a lot considering that the tree gives nothing more than defence bonuses and some utility, i would love to see some of the bloated effects from defender merged and removed and replaced with something fitting the theme that would balance the tree itself, to have something for attack defence and utility. maybe something non stacking based on shield, frankly i never liked vanguard and i think that it should be an universal prestige for pdk favor or something, for all other classes that want to use shield, and defender should be based around shield. i always saw it as vanguard small and heavy shield bonuses, defender non stacking heavy and tower. frankly current defender tree design is more useful and easy to use for someone who just wants extra defence boost and does not treat it as a main tree, and not fo the one who focuses on it.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Boulder's Might is a Cleave if I recall correctly, and won't work with Strikethrough.

I do like where this 2hf change is taking us with one notable exception: no cleave/enhancement synergy. Yes the increased stat multiplier will work, but 2hf enhancements boosting strike through, they will be worthless on cleaves. I don't anticipate ever investing in them again as long as they add nothing to cleaves.

V
Did I mention that I would like to see 2hf enhancements help with cleaves?

[CaptainSpacePony]

Do the revised THF feats Ability Score Modifier increase apply to Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sward?

Has this been answered? I assume it should be at least 0.5 less than is listed to keep it in line with live. Full bonus would be an unintended buff.

[DRoark]

I like the changes mentioned, and wehre this seems to be going.
And I like the idea of moving Divine Insight to Battle Trance to group everything together.

For a built with 70 Charisma, I would have added 30 to strength, for 15 damage, plus the deadly for 23 total.
Now I get 15 damage, plus 5, for 20.
So it's about 3 points of damage.

For STR domains and FvS builds, yeah the DAMAGE is similar, but now I can't open doors. Not really a great trade.
I really wish they'd stop "improving" everything, they're passively destroying EVERY niche some of us enjoyed.

[Baahb3]

Now take that +20 Insightful Strength and realize that your getting a 50% bonus on it's effect, so instead of +10 it's actually +15. That +30 gives a +22 effect instead of +15. The higher the stats grow the larger the nerf is, and at cap it's not a small nerf. All the +damage from the KoTC tree is being wiped out due to the Divine Might nerf, and yes it's a nerf. I've mentioned before that it should give +3/4 instead of +1/2, possibly being favored weapon exclusive or something.

Was just thinking the same thing, that DM is a nerf with the new changes to THF feats.

Example:
Str: 80 (+35)
Cha: 50 (+20)

Currently DM would get you a 100 STR, so with the new GTHF you would have +135 to damage, +45 to Hit

New DM would keep it at 80 STR, so with the new GTHF you would get +105 (Str), +10 DM, so +115 to Damage, +45 to Hit.

You could slot Insight Str (+10) I suppose for +15 more damage which would put you pretty close but then that is another gear slot you have to find. This new damage and to hit from DM will not stack with Insightful Deadly, Insightful Accuracy or Insightful Combat Tactics, since they are now clarified as Insightful boni.

I guess my question would be, is the tactical inclusion worth the gear/stat shuffle and the difference in damage?

[Wizza]

Nerfs, buffs, introduce something OP, nerfs, rinse and repeat forever.

[Ballrus]

A bit of a preview of a couple of changes we're tentatively planning for Lamannia Round 2:

Two Handed:

• The Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
• The Improved Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2.5x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
• The Greater Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 3x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.

This is a change from the last Lamannia, where Greater Two Handed Fighting was pushing this to 2x. Our goal here is to push single-target Two Handed DPS past what it currently does on Live, to compensate for the loss in single-target damage from Glancing Blows and to push them closer to other styles. Across the several THF builds we've tested with this change, a small number broke even with their Live damage numbers, but most pushed ahead of their Live damage numbers.

Will this apply to bastard swords and dwarf axes? (maybe 1.5/2/2.5x, remember these weapons need a feat to use)

Two Handed, Continued:

• Most single-target special attacks should allow you to Strikethrough, hitting two to three targets.
  
  • Smite Evil has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
  • Exalted Smite has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
  • Hamstring has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
  • Sap has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
  • Slicing Blow has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
  • Sunder has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
  • Improved Sunder has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
  • Trip has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
  • Improved Trip has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
  • Stunning Blow has been modified to allow Strikethrough.

With this change, Strikethrough should work on most attacks that aren't already AOE. (AOE attacks will act as they currently do, which in most cases should be better than overriding that for Strikethrough). One notable exception is Falconry attacks, which will not Strikethrough because multiple clone birds, while hilarious, aren't something we're aiming for. We'll have ears out on Lamannia for any attacks we've missed, as well as how the balance looks in this environment.

Apply to Momentum Swing, Volcano Edge, Anvil of Thunder, Lightning Mace (LD) and Smite the Wicked (DC)?

Off topic: Any chance to use this new Strikethrough mechanic on Shield bash / Shield attacks? (scaling with shield mastery/ISM/improved shield Bash, etc).

Thanks!

[Zites]

last lamaland visit i did try to work those two new defender enchanements in, and they made tree cost go up considerably to 51 ap for just essentials, that is a lot considering that the tree gives nothing more than defence bonuses and some utility, i would love to see some of the bloated effects from defender merged and removed and replaced with something fitting the theme that would balance the tree itself, to have something for attack defence and utility. maybe something non stacking based on shield, frankly i never liked vanguard and i think that it should be an universal prestige for pdk favor or something, for all other classes that want to use shield, and defender should be based around shield. i always saw it as vanguard small and heavy shield bonuses, defender non stacking heavy and tower. frankly current defender tree design is more useful and easy to use for someone who just wants extra defence boost and does not treat it as a main tree, and not fo the one who focuses on it.

+1

[palladin9479]

Was just thinking the same thing, that DM is a nerf with the new changes to THF feats.

Example:
Str: 80 (+35)
Cha: 50 (+20)

Currently DM would get you a 100 STR, so with the new GTHF you would have +135 to damage, +45 to Hit

New DM would keep it at 80 STR, so with the new GTHF you would get +105 (Str), +10 DM, so +115 to Damage, +45 to Hit.

You could slot Insight Str (+10) I suppose for +15 more damage which would put you pretty close but then that is another gear slot you have to find. This new damage and to hit from DM will not stack with Insightful Deadly, Insightful Accuracy or Insightful Combat Tactics, since they are now clarified as Insightful boni.

I guess my question would be, is the tactical inclusion worth the gear/stat shuffle and the difference in damage?

Yeah the most I do the math the more obvious that you never come out ahead. Divine Might shouldn't of ever been insightful anything and instead should be a sacred or divine bonus in the first place. This nerf really does wipe out many of the benefits the KoTC tree got.

[Fedora1]

Yeah the most I do the math the more obvious that you never come out ahead. Divine Might shouldn't of ever been insightful anything and instead should be a sacred or divine bonus in the first place. This nerf really does wipe out many of the benefits the KoTC tree got.

Agree. I hope the devs will listen and do their own testing to see this so that it can be changed. The last time they did a pally pass all it did was change things up, the net result was no stronger than before. Looks like something similar is happening here this time.

[Ahwaric]

A bit of a preview of a couple of changes we're tentatively planning for Lamannia Round 2:
Two Handed:

• The Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
• The Improved Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2.5x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
• The Greater Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 3x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.

Might have been asked already, but in any case, would be nice to know.
Will it work for Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe? The original increase for preview 1 was excluding the two.
If it won't, you have just nerfed both weapons out of existence - Longsword and Battle Axe with Knight's Training Feat will be far superior. With just 1 feat instead of 3 or 4 (if you do not get the BS/DW proficiency for free)
Please reward the investemnt - either add full bonus to one and a half weapons, or at least a reduced one.

[palladin9479]

Agree. I hope the devs will listen and do their own testing to see this so that it can be changed. The last time they did a pally pass all it did was change things up, the net result was no stronger than before. Looks like something similar is happening here this time.

Well it ~was~ going to be good, then the cosplayers got involved and cried that they wanted to use a Charisma based Paladin. The dev's capitulated and viola nerf that wipes out most of the gains from the KoTC upgrade.

Right now the strongest Insightful Strength item is +10, meaning +5~7 damage. Insightful Deadly is +8 so immediately without any other consideration it's a nerf. But wait there's more.

Charisma around 70 isn't hard to reach and provides a +30 bonus. The original Divine Might would transfer that into +30 Insightful Strength that would then converted to +15 * 1.5 = +22 damage. The results with the above deadly is +30 damage.

The *new* nerfed Divine Might would translate that +30 into +15 Damage. The Insightful Strength is giving +7 damage for a net result of +22 damage. The more Charisma you get the worse off the gap becomes, run the math at 90 or 100 Charisma, a like value once the cap goes up, and it gets really bad.

Again the center issue was that Paladin was already getting a 50% bonus to damage from Strength and the Dev's just took that away.

[palladin9479]

Might have been asked already, but in any case, would be nice to know.
Will it work for Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe? The original increase for preview 1 was excluding the two.
If it won't, you have just nerfed both weapons out of existence - Longsword and Battle Axe with Knight's Training Feat will be far superior. With just 1 feat instead of 3 or 4 (if you do not get the BS/DW proficiency for free)
Please reward the investemnt - either add full bonus to one and a half weapons, or at least a reduced one.

KT with Long Sword and Battle Axe are already superior damage, nothing about this changes them. Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axes were for AoE's, mostly AoE hate with Glancing Blows. I believe StrikeThrough is still working on both those weapons so you can still build an AoE hate tank around them.

[Alcides]

For most builds using Divine Might, this change comes out to the same Attack and Damage numbers. For Two Handed Weapons, it comes out somewhat lower but should be compensated for in the above Two Handed changes. (If it isn't offsetting that well enough, we can make further changes before U45 goes Live). One concern expressed by players who have already seen the above THF changes was that the existing Divine Might would become nearly mandatory on THF builds, including Barbarians/Fighters/etc, since the bonus to Strength would be amplified considerably further than it used to. We wanted to ensure that this wouldn't cause anyone to lose Attack, so we've added that to Divine Might and Divine Will. This makes those slightly stronger than Know the Angles and Deadly Instincts in those respects, but we are alright with the class-based versions granting Attack while the Universal-tree-based Trances do not. This should be a buff for many characters using alternate to-hit and to-damage stats, as well as to Divines who use skills that scale with Tactical Feats (Sunder, Trip, etc, which now work with Strikethrough as above).

I think all trances should give hit damage and tactical dc. Lack of hit is another aspect of THF that has caused it to fall out of favor. While I'm all for the paladin buffs it should not be at the expense of druid, fighter and barbarian builds losing out. Those classes only have access to trances on the general enhancement trees. It will keep this part of the DPS meta constant down the road.

[Zites]

Well it ~was~ going to be good, then the cosplayers got involved and cried that they wanted to use a Charisma based Paladin. The dev's capitulated and viola nerf that wipes out most of the gains from the KoTC upgrade.

Right now the strongest Insightful Strength item is +10, meaning +5~7 damage. Insightful Deadly is +8 so immediately without any other consideration it's a nerf. But wait there's more.

Charisma around 70 isn't hard to reach and provides a +30 bonus. The original Divine Might would transfer that into +30 Insightful Strength that would then converted to +15 * 1.5 = +22 damage. The results with the above deadly is +30 damage.

The *new* nerfed Divine Might would translate that +30 into +15 Damage. The Insightful Strength is giving +7 damage for a net result of +22 damage. The more Charisma you get the worse off the gap becomes, run the math at 90 or 100 Charisma, a like value once the cap goes up, and it gets really bad.

Again the center issue was that Paladin was already getting a 50% bonus to damage from Strength and the Dev's just took that away.

This is like when they upgraded Van Guard and told us it was a improvement to Shield Champion: shield bash stuns 10% of the time from it's 5% as it was intended to be originally, when it was at 50% for 5YEARS!!!

So far I'm not buying on the KOTC and Defender trees sorry. THF, strike-through,spring atk changes will see, so far its a maybe and Paladin is just discouraging 2 steps forward and three back.

[Ahwaric]

KT with Long Sword and Battle Axe are already superior damage, nothing about this changes them. Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axes were for AoE's, mostly AoE hate with Glancing Blows. I believe StrikeThrough is still working on both those weapons so you can still build an AoE hate tank around them.

It was demonstrated that the changes in preview 1 nerfed 2-handed weapons when it comes to single target damage, and AOE damage is a minor thing compared to it. That is why the changes for preview 2 were implemented.
1.5-handed weapons were affected the same way - lost single target bonus from glancing blows. As you said, KT already on live makes longsword and battle axe better than 1.5-weapons when it comes to single target. And AOE is weak. So I stand by my opinion - if the change in preview 2 does not apply to 1,5 weapons, it significantly nerfs them even compared to live. While the aim of the balance changes was to improve 2-handed fighting. And there will be no point in using 1.5-handed weapons after the update.
Also, makes them completly different than other weapons using 2-handed feat line - so it will be confusing.
It should be adressed - I do not say bastard sword and dwarven waraxe should get full bonus (though it would be hardly OP considering the investment), but should get something.