U45 Preview 1: Balance Changes Main Thread

[reywas]

Re: Defender stances.

Honestly, I think I would prefer them to be 5-15% and stacking with EDF than 20% and overlapping. Reduce all the competence in all abilities that give such a bonus to a lower amount and change EDF to an Epic bonus, stacking with all other sources of +%HP.

[Carpone]

[*]Dragon Breath in Draconic Incarnation now has a 60 second cooldown

Could you at least have it benefit from Breath Focus DCs like Dragonborn does?

[0ldschool]

Our changes focus on two major areas: all-seeing/tremor sense visibility and range, and movement speed while sneaking.

Stealth Movement Speed

• All Sneak Speed enhancements are now on the Enhancement channel, and therefore will not stack. We've also fixed the Antirequisite flags on these abilities to more reliably prevent players from taking more than one.
• Shadow Training II in Shadowdancer now gives a 150% Enhancement bonus to Stealth Movement Speed instead of setting you to the normal base movement.

Stealth Mechanics

• Monster's sight detection of stealthed players has been decreased by 28% (was 25 meters, now 18) if their Stealth score exceeds the monster's spot skill. This includes bosses and monsters that can see normally through stealth (All-Seeing).
• When the player is Stealthed, they now see a visual purple eye VFX over any monster that pierces Stealth (All-Seeing and All-Hearing/Tremorsense).
• Hearing range on "All-Hearing" monsters (aka monsters with Tremorsense) has been reduced by 10% (from 20 meters down to 18).

Known Issues

• N/A

First, thank you for fixing Shadow Training II (see edit below, I am mistaken this is not a fix). I understand moving all Sneak speed enhancement to one type, but it sadly results in a nerf for some/many from where we are now. I also think that I understand the change to Scion of Ethereal, you are trying to reward players who truly invest in stealth and not just those who slot items and have high DEX (and I hope this trend continues in the future to distinguish and reward true stealth from invis-zerging in quest). The problem is that for basically all of us stealth types, this is a nerf to sneak attack damage (assuming that max ranks = 23, or do epic levels count?). Would you consider 2x instead of 1.5x?

However, all of this will be well worth it to me if the attempts to improve stealth play actually do just that. I'll reference nokowi's thread again.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...led-Play/page3
It looks like you're taking a stab at the detection radius problem. I don't quite understand the change as described, but I'll be anxious to test it out. To me, the absolute worst part of the aggro system is the shared auto-detection as detailed in that thread. I very much hope that these stealth changes address that problem to some degree, or that you are at least aware of this issue and have plans to address it. Decreasing the sight detection radius on all mobs doesn't help much if one mob can instantly let the entire dungeon know exactly where I am.

EDIT: I was confused RE Shadow Training II. The problem that I mis-remembered did not have to do with movement speed, it was that the extra to-hit, SA die, Hide and MS bonuses that were broken (don't stack properly with other bonuses). Sorry about that. I'll hope that those are being addressed since its being touched anyway. See my post here. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Thread/page60

[janave]

Our changes focus on two major areas: all-seeing/tremor sense visibility and range, and movement speed while sneaking.

This is a relatively large nerf to ninja / stalker / rogue assasin stealthy combos, as if they werent already double feet stomped completely in the past, now they are ... cant believe you guys spent time nerfing something like this.

The range reduction would be supercool if the aggro mechanics would work. As long as the satellite chain aggro is in place, these arent helpful, the nerf is still hurtful however across all levels of its utility.

U45 feels like you guys went out of way to go against what players actually want to have working well, and what good design sense would suggest, further nerfing tank builds, further nerfing bows the far ahead number one ranged archetype and pop cult. reference...

When you are about to make these changes are you guys do a check how your audience will react? Or just really into griefing this much?

[Gilga1]

Percentage HP

• Enlightened Spirit level 20 capstone stays at 20% Sacred

ES capstone is competence on live, right? And lama description still says "competence"... typo?

Stalwart and Sacred defender bonuses should be increased to 25% to match EDF.

+1

[HuneyMunster]

First, thank you for fixing Shadow Training II. I understand moving all Sneak speed enhancement to one type, but it sadly results in a nerf for some/many from where we are now. I also think that I understand the change to Scion of Ethereal, you are trying to reward players who truly invest in stealth and not just those who slot items and have high DEX (and I hope this trend continues in the future to distinguish and reward true stealth from invis-zerging in quest). The problem is that for basically all of us stealth types, this is a nerf to sneak attack damage (assuming that max ranks = 23, or do epic levels count?). Would you consider 2x instead of 1.5x?

However, all of this will be well worth it to me if the attempts to improve stealth play actually do just that. I'll reference nokowi's thread again.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...led-Play/page3
It looks like you're taking a stab at the detection radius problem. I don't quite understand the change as described, but I'll be anxious to test it out. To me, the absolute worst part of the aggro system is the shared auto-detection as detailed in that thread. I very much hope that these stealth changes address that problem to some degree, or that you are at least aware of this issue and have plans to address it. Decreasing the sight detection radius on all mobs doesn't help much if one mob can instantly let the entire dungeon know exactly where I am.

Thanks for listening to us!

Changing Shadow Training II make turns it into just a clicky to add 2d6 SA from how it's currently used. The only time I ever used it was when I needed to make an escape after either a botch or move around a corner and have a Reaper auto spot me and agro an entire pack. Though with 160+ H&MS I did started to notice Reapers have Question Marks over their heads when not too close to them. I would prefer to see the damage part removed and the ability changed to a speed boost while Sneaking. This could either be a clicky with short duration and cooldown or adds stacking permanent 15-25% Sneak speed. It can get tedious either spamming the space bar or turning Sneak on and off every 8 seconds just to keep up with the rest of the party without losing Measure the Foe.

One of the biggest issue still remains in that after about 30 seconds monsters still auto zone in on you no matter how far away you moved away. I don't see investing 23 skill points into hide is truly rewarding players that invest into the skill to use a Legendary Feat. Scion of Arborea is now the only feat worth taking for melee while Scion of the Astral Plane is decent on a monk, but that Dodge Cap in useless for anyone that's not unarmored as you restricted more by you Max Dex Bonus. The extra Assassinate DC maybe worth considering now on an Assassin. Scion of the Ethereal Plane is now just an expensive Blur feat.

It seems like Hide skill becomes less important now, but still worth it unlike how Bluff changes a few years ago made the skill useless for Rogues in Legendary content. No way is any Rogue gonna be hitting around 120+ DC without having to sacrifice 2 or 3 gear slots.

[TheFakeVolo]

This is only kind of related to tanks, but will you be looking at docent AC / adamant body. My understanding is docent AC scaling hasn't kept up with the equivalent plate armour. So just by going non-fleshy you lose out on base 20-30AC

[Zer0AcmE]

Why was Aasimar singled out and received Sacred bonus to HP instead of Racial, makes no sense, feels very heavy handed.

[SerPounce]

Why was Aasimar singled out and received Sacred bonus to HP instead of Racial, makes no sense, feels very heavy handed.

None of them are typed "racial" any more. Aasimar is "sacred" while most of the others are "quality." If anything Aasimar's sacred seems to stack with more class stuff, it just doesn't play nice with paladin defender core 5 or es core 6. That's fine by me, despite the thematic similarity, Aasimar really isn't a good candidate for paladin anyway. Stacking with falconry and monk are more important IMO which the other racials don't.

[SerPounce]

[*]Renegade Mastermaker goes to 10% Quality down from 20% racial

I imagine this is about cutting down on the top end HP for multiclass tank builds. Which seems like a reasonable change in itself, but I would consider giving RMM back the other 10% in the lvl 18 core or capstone. More-or-less all-in RMMs aren't over performing defensive builds.

[janave]

Spring attack could use a square (active ability) icon, it has 2 passive icons right now. Also, inside the description the length of the jump could be specified, it is a relatively good distance but best to have the info right there so nobody expects to leap thru half the map with it :P. Its cleave range / hitbox is decent.

Large cooldown, it could be specified in its description as well. 18-20 seconds now?


Edit: It costs quite a bit in feats, so it would be nice if Barbarians could get some help here, maybe offer for a high enough barb levels, eg: 17?.
Edit2: If you are too close it overjumps the target quite a bit. This is either a feature or a bug depending on who plays it :P

[Alcides]

Reworked suggestions...

[Valerianus]

delete epic defensive fighting and apply that %hp to combat styles passively.

[Qeistalan]

[QUOTE=Cocomajobo;6281674]Disclaimer Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

Hello, all! Update 45 is expected to contain a large amount of changes to systems balance in DDO. These are being done in preparation for Hardcore Season 2.


Why do game updates (touted as "improvements" and/or "game-balance changes"), more often than not, ultimately result in detrimental nerfs to the whole of DDO gameplay?

WHY are you changing THE ENTIRE GAME to modify gameplay for ONE PART-TIME SERVER that a FRACTION of player base will use?

SSG: Is your business model designed to cater solely to minoritarians that can NEVER be pleased, and to the Abyss with everyone else?

STOP selling players - YOUR CUSTOMERS - a bill of goods: STOP consistently penalizing/punishing the bulk of players by making the game worse. MAKE IT BETTER!

[Livmo]

Individual Changes

• Dragon Breath in Draconic Incarnation now has a 60 second cooldown
• Draconic Fury in Draconic Incarnation now has a 90 second cooldown
  

Please don't make these changes. These items are very useful on 1st life toons when grouping with folks that have many past lives to feel like I can contribute as the PUG zergs through content. A few kills is better than no kills when hitting epics for the 1st time on a new toon. Allot of classes start in Draconic and it feels good on a new toon being able to help the party kill a little bit.

[Zer0AcmE]

The bonuses from the racial trees should be a racial bonus and not a quality bonus. It should be differentiated from the other "quality" bonuses and stack with them so that it is an actual bonus for building your tank from that race.

Stalwart and Sacred defender bonuses should be increased to 25% to match EDF.

Perfectly said, agree 100%.

[slarden]

Will EDF remain a Competence bonus? If it doesn't, there's options; if it does, AFAIK here's the new tier list for %HP for Epic content:

• Warlock 20: 70% bonus HP (EDF, US, Falconry)
• Zombie T5: 65% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar, Falconry) - requires Wizard 5 and T5
• Paladin 18: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Falconry/BF/Dwarf)
• Artificer T5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Artificer 5 & T5
• Barbarian T5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Barbarian 5 & T5
• Monk T5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Monk 5 & T5
• Other: 55% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar, Falconry)

Why are Warlock and Wizard the two top-tier options?

]

If you are talking martial builds - warlock and wizards are weaker to begin with due to their trees. If you are talking casters I don't see EDF fitting in.

[Zretch]

question about the new SA and Hide method. For me, I have 102 hide, so this actually calculates better for me. I play a monk, and choose ethereal but I am not wondering if I should go to arborea or back to astral plain.

My question is, is 34.5 SA damage better than 8% Double Strike, or +20 Melee Power. I'm going with the best, so any suggestion is worth it to me.

Thanks!
Nico

It depends on your current melee power, I would think.

34.5 SA damage is going to be scaled by your current melee power by 150%, so the more melee power you have, the higher that 34.5 scales up. If you have low melee power, the +20 melee power is a no-brainer, IMO. If you've got high melee power, then doublestrike will be a straight 8% damage increase, however if you're close to doublestrike cap (100%), then you water down its impact.

It also depends on how often you're getting SA. Do you run with a tank 100% of the time? Are you a rogue who can break SA immunity on undead and constructs? Do you have deception/improved deception weapons/gear?

So yea, I hate to say it, but it depends. Honestly, though, I don't think you can go wrong with 20 melee power or 8% doublestrike. If you're swimming in melee power and at the doublestrike cap, however, then go SA as you can no longer get it to ramp up with gear, buffs, and Sneak of Shadows.

[mikarddo]

Well, there are certainly a lot of things to consider here.

I play ranged, casters and healers - never melee or tanks - so I will limit myself to mostly commenting on generel stuff and changes to ranged/casters.

Nerfs I find somewhat reasonable:
- Sharn pass (the insta cast was just too good - **** I will miss it, but I understand why its changed. It never should have been fast casting)
- Cargo hold resist buffs (I will very much miss these but they are far too good from level 1)
- Dragon Breath (I love it on my sorc but have to admit its too good)
- Ratcatcher (I admit that using the same weapon from 1 through 25/28 is telling, a nerf had to happen)
- Inquisitive (some nerf was warrented, but the list of proposed nerfs is just too long - activation time on NHB, Rapid Reload, Law Dice twice and Doubleshot on top of the major IPS change. Making this many changes at once its way overkill go slower and reevaluate after a while. Most importantly reconsider the activation time change as that makes the build unfun)
- IPS (This one really surprised me. Most IPS builds are far from powerful at this time and IPS is not an easy form of AoE. A 20% reduction is huge. This one is far out of touch with the reasonable).
- Archers Focus (presented as a buff, but as several posters have clarified its more of a nerf as it results when changing targets. Reconsider, so it is actually a buff rather than a nerf, please)

As said I cannot comments on the changes to melee (some nerfs, some buffs as I never play melee - but I will say that I am happy that there are some melee buffs as that was needed).

[Zretch]

Will EDF remain a Competence bonus? If it doesn't, there's options; if it does, AFAIK here's the new tier list for %HP for Epic content:

• Warlock 20: 70% bonus HP (EDF, US, Falconry)
• Zombie T5: 65% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar, Falconry) - requires Wizard 5 and T5
• Paladin 18: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Falconry/BF/Dwarf)
• Artificer T5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Artificer 5 & T5
• Barbarian T5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Barbarian 5 & T5
• Monk T5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Monk 5 & T5
• Other: 55% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar, Falconry)

Why are Warlock and Wizard the two top-tier options? Why does Monk get more %HP than Fighter after level 20?

Pretty sure they're not changing Warlock ES to Sacred from Competence, that's just a typo. Warlock ES capstone doesn't stack with EDF, nor does it stack with Aasimir, so warlocks won't be coming anywhere close to 70%.

Zombie looks like the highest theoretical hitpoints, but at a pretty large cost to their ability to be healed. The tanking sets all carry positive healing amp, and zombie cuts positive healing by 50%. Also, Aasimir hitpoint boost is a stance, just like zombie form, so you can't stack them, which puts you down at 60%, equal to a paladin 18, but with fewer options for being healed. You'll also need to figure out how to fit negative heal amp and nullification spellpower into your gear while still maintaining your tank set, resists, natural armor bonuses, etc, etc. Sure, you can have a high hitpoint tank that gets hit REALLY HARD, can't be healed well by anyone in the group, and struggles to hold agro, but...what's the point in that?

Monk needs to be centered to get that HP bonus, so they'll be sporting a PRR significantly lower than a fighter/paladin tank, and an MRR that's even lower than that. This one, however, doesn't have the self healing that a cleric or pale master hybrid tank would have.

I think you're underestimating the impact of Warpriest core 4 addition of 10% quality hitpoints. Favored Soul at level 7 ( I think ) has the option to take d10 hitpoints per favored soul level, and cleric animal domain has a bundle of hitpoints at level 9 or so. There's already a shift towards tanks that can also heal in the META, so I would bet that you're more likely to see people pulling out of 5 arti RM but keeping their 11 to 17 levels of cleric or favored soul rather than trying to be a warlock, wizard, or monk tank. Just my opinion.