U45 Preview 1: Balance Changes Main Thread

[Avocado]

15% decrease in renegade mastermaker tier split's hp? They aren't going to be happy. Not a bad change, it was silly to see that renegade was the only way to get max hp. I was hoping for a bit more in defenses for bear tanks as they lack the ability to use combat expertise and shield mastery which is already 50 per less then a fighter. Which is a large chunk of prr.

Also on regards to scion of ethreal plane, my sa jumps from 50 sa to 225 sa with 150 hide? That is hugely rediculous. Maybe just 1 per rank and not 1.5?

[Kielbasa]

This is a huge nerf, I don't think people will catch onto yet. Pay attention to wording, they are basing it off your RANK now instead of your MODIFIER. My assassin rogue is crying.

Lets just hope they worded things poorly. I hope the intention is to make sure you get bonus sneak attack for every point of hide rather than only getting it when you increase the skill 3 points. I think it means your bonus sneak attack total stays the same and in some instances people will get 1.5 to 3 more sneak attack if they did not have a multple of 3.

[Rauven]

Individual Changes

• Scion of the Ethereal Plane now adds 1.5 Sneak Attack Damage per rank of Hide you have, instead of 1 for every 3 points of your total Hide score.

Is this a buff or a nerrr... I mean, balance adjustment to Ethereal Plane? First, if I'm understanding this correctly, "per rank of Hide you have" means points spent in the skill, yes? Which means max of 23 points + tomes (if they apply), which max at 5. That means 23*1.5=34.5 bonus sneak attack damage, or 28*1.5=42 bonus sneak attack damage if tomes apply. If you currently have a hide score over 104, or 126 if tomes apply, then this is a nerf and you're losing some sneak attack damage. Am I understanding this correctly or does "per rank of Hide you have" mean something else?

[SpartanKiller13]

Is this a buff or a nerrr... I mean, balance adjustment to Ethereal Plane? First, if I'm understanding this correctly, "per rank of Hide you have" means points spent in the skill, yes? Which means max of 23 points + tomes (if they apply), which max at 5. That means 23*1.5=34.5 bonus sneak attack damage, or 28*1.5=42 bonus sneak attack damage if tomes apply. If you currently have a hide score over 104, or 126 if tomes apply, then this is a nerf and you're losing some sneak attack damage. Am I understanding this correctly or does "per rank of Hide you have" mean something else?

If it's actually "per rank" it's a nerf. Rule of thumb cutoff for Ethereal vs Arborea is like 130-140 Hide, and it's pretty reasonable to have 160+ on a Dex-max endgame toon.

Also stuff like Sneak of Shadows is also getting indirectly nerfed if it's "per rank" not "per Hide modifier".

[Assassination]

this is a huge nerf, i don't think people will catch onto yet. Pay attention to wording, they are basing it off your rank now instead of your modifier. My assassin rogue is crying.

this sucks!!!!

[Kinerd]

This is a huge nerf, I don't think people will catch onto yet. Pay attention to wording, they are basing it off your RANK now instead of your MODIFIER. My assassin rogue is crying.

if it counts Epic Skills as ranks and assuming SpartanKiller13's 160 number is good it seems like we'll pretty much break even, 34 * 1.5 = 51, * 3 = 153. does anyone know of anything else that uses only ranks in its calculation? that could be a helpful test

[Avocado]

if it counts Epic Skills as ranks and assuming SpartanKiller13's 160 number is good it seems like we'll pretty much break even, 34 * 1.5 = 51, * 3 = 153. does anyone know of anything else that uses only ranks in its calculation? that could be a helpful test

160 is a little high its reasonably more like 140

[Rauven]

if it counts Epic Skills as ranks and assuming SpartanKiller13's 160 number is good it seems like we'll pretty much break even, 34 * 1.5 = 51, * 3 = 153. does anyone know of anything else that uses only ranks in its calculation? that could be a helpful test

As I was driving to retrieve the goblins from school I thought about epic levels. If those do apply then I'd consider this a buff. 23 ranks + 10 epic levels, for 49.5 equates to a current hide score of 149. The closest thing I can think of right now is perform for bards. Do epic levels apply for perform requirements?

[Zer0AcmE]

As part of U45 we're reshuffling where percentage HP can be found, as well as cleaning up and polishing the Tier 5s and late cores of Stalwart and Sacred Defender. We hope these changes open up a lot of new Tank builds and ease some of the pressure to multiclass for dedicated Tank players.

Stalwart Defense

• Stand Fast (Core 12): Instead of an Action Boost that ends Fear and Knockdown, this is now Fear and Knockdown immunity passively
• Defensive Sweep (Core 18): No longer an active. Now passively adds +15% Exceptional bonus to Armor Class , +50% threat, and +25 PRR.
• Against All Odds (Fills empty T5 Slot): +5 AC, taking damage adds a stacking +2 AC, stacks 10 times
• Reprisal: replaced with: The Thick of Battle (Tier 5): Striking enemies adds +10% Melee Threat. Max 10 stacks, 10 second timer, all stacks fade when timer runs out.

Sacred Defender

• Glorious Stand (Core 18): No longer an active. Now passively adds +10% Sacred Bonus to Max HP, +25 Healing Amp, +3 Lay on Hands charges
• Eternal Defender (Core 20): 250 Unconsciousness Range instead of 40.
• Faith Shield (Fills empty T5 Slot): +10% Armor Class (same channel as EK), you are considered Shielded versus magic missiles, and have +12 SR.
• Reprisal: replaced with: Divine Revelation (Tier 5): Improves your Aura of Courage. +4 Additional SR, +3 additional AC, +2 Additional Saves. You personally also gain +100 HP.

Percentage HP

• Stalwart and Sacred Defender: remain at 20% Competence
• Nature's Protector: remains at 25% Competence
• Unyielding Sentinel: remains at 20% Insightful
• Aasimar stays typed as Sacred, goes to 5% down from 10%
• Bladeforged gains 5% Quality in a new Tier 4 (2 AP) in their Racial Tree.
• Paladin 18th core gains 10% Sacred HP (this is also in the above notes for clarity)
• Enlightened Spirit level 20 capstone stays at 20% Sacred
• Occult Slayer t5 Bond of Destruction gains 10% Quality
• Renegade Mastermaker goes to 10% Quality down from 20% racial
• Upgraded Zombie in t5 Palemaster goes to 10% Profane
• Shintao t5 gains 10% Quality in meditation of war earth stance (up from 3% untyped)
• Falconry t3 goes to 5% Quality (already 5% just adds a channel)
• Dwarf goes from 4% stacking to 5% Quality
• Warpriest core 4 (level 12) gets 10% Quality

Thoughts? First impressions? Complaints about the removal of Reprisal? We're very much hoping that these changes make building a tank more of an exciting experience, and look forward to seeing what you all can come up with!

Known Issues

• N/A

So you just made it to where no one will make an Aasimar Paladin, well done..do you actually think before you make this junk up???

And is it me or is Fighter getting way more PRR and AC then Paladin?

[GoldyGopher]

As part of U45 we're reshuffling where percentage HP can be found, as well as cleaning up and polishing the Tier 5s and late cores of Stalwart and Sacred Defender. We hope these changes open up a lot of new Tank builds and ease some of the pressure to multiclass for dedicated Tank players.

Stalwart Defense

• Stand Fast (Core 12): Instead of an Action Boost that ends Fear and Knockdown, this is now Fear and Knockdown immunity passively
• Defensive Sweep (Core 18): No longer an active. Now passively adds +15% Exceptional bonus to Armor Class , +50% threat, and +25 PRR.
• Against All Odds (Fills empty T5 Slot): +5 AC, taking damage adds a stacking +2 AC, stacks 10 times
• Reprisal: replaced with: The Thick of Battle (Tier 5): Striking enemies adds +10% Melee Threat. Max 10 stacks, 10 second timer, all stacks fade when timer runs out.

Sacred Defender

• Glorious Stand (Core 18): No longer an active. Now passively adds +10% Sacred Bonus to Max HP, +25 Healing Amp, +3 Lay on Hands charges
• Eternal Defender (Core 20): 250 Unconsciousness Range instead of 40.
• Faith Shield (Fills empty T5 Slot): +10% Armor Class (same channel as EK), you are considered Shielded versus magic missiles, and have +12 SR.
• Reprisal: replaced with: Divine Revelation (Tier 5): Improves your Aura of Courage. +4 Additional SR, +3 additional AC, +2 Additional Saves. You personally also gain +100 HP.

Percentage HP

• Stalwart and Sacred Defender: remain at 20% Competence
• Nature's Protector: remains at 25% Competence
• Unyielding Sentinel: remains at 20% Insightful
• Aasimar stays typed as Sacred, goes to 5% down from 10%
• Bladeforged gains 5% Quality in a new Tier 4 (2 AP) in their Racial Tree.
• Paladin 18th core gains 10% Sacred HP (this is also in the above notes for clarity)
• Enlightened Spirit level 20 capstone stays at 20% Sacred
• Occult Slayer t5 Bond of Destruction gains 10% Quality
• Renegade Mastermaker goes to 10% Quality down from 20% racial
• Upgraded Zombie in t5 Palemaster goes to 10% Profane
• Shintao t5 gains 10% Quality in meditation of war earth stance (up from 3% untyped)
• Falconry t3 goes to 5% Quality (already 5% just adds a channel)
• Dwarf goes from 4% stacking to 5% Quality
• Warpriest core 4 (level 12) gets 10% Quality

Thoughts? First impressions? Complaints about the removal of Reprisal? We're very much hoping that these changes make building a tank more of an exciting experience, and look forward to seeing what you all can come up with!

Known Issues

• N/A

After looking at several builds on Lamannia, in general I think these changes are okay and can live with them.

I would like to make a request (or two).

Can the AC bonus from Reinforced Armor (Tier 4 - Sacred Defender) be changed to 25, 50 75 (or 20, 40, 75). In comparison to the current 14/5/1 builds you I lose roughly 20 points of AC, this adjustment brings add 18 or 19 points back, depending on rounding. Being it is in Tier 4 and requires quite an investment in points to take I think it makes sense balance wise.

I am pretty sure Stalwart Defender is in the same place.

Thanks

[Saekee]

Our changes focus on two major areas: all-seeing/tremor sense visibility and range, and movement speed while sneaking.

Stealth Movement Speed

• All Sneak Speed enhancements are now on the Enhancement channel, and therefore will not stack. We've also fixed the Antirequisite flags on these abilities to more reliably prevent players from taking more than one.
• Shadow Training II in Shadowdancer now gives a 150% Enhancement bonus to Stealth Movement Speed instead of setting you to the normal base movement.

Stealth Mechanics

• Monster's sight detection of stealthed players has been decreased by 28% (was 25 meters, now 18) if their Stealth score exceeds the monster's spot skill. This includes bosses and monsters that can see normally through stealth (All-Seeing).
• When the player is Stealthed, they now see a visual purple eye VFX over any monster that pierces Stealth (All-Seeing and All-Hearing/Tremorsense).
• Hearing range on "All-Hearing" monsters (aka monsters with Tremorsense) has been reduced by 10% (from 20 meters down to 18).

Known Issues

• N/A

I appreciate the first effort here, thank you

If I am floating as a wraith or in PM wraith form, shouldn’t that eliminate tremor sense?
I see 18 meters is the magical new number, will need to test it to see how it is.

please allow faster sneaking to continue stacking. I have links to my wiki page in which Sev states WAI—why change this now? It is a big cost to an assassin to drop a level or two (essentially the capstone DPS and DCs boost) just to sneak fast

The link is here from Sev:

Ability: sneak speed buffs in assassin, DWS and Ninja spy
Description: +25/+35/+50% movement speed while sneaking. Assassin to 75%.
Example: https://www.twitch.tv/qualdrion/v/102792967.
Question: are these supposed to stack? Because they do stack. And is assassin not currently giving 75% (my tests showed it was the same as the other two). Also, SD gives a sneak speed boost that makes one move extremely fast in stealth, faster than anyone can run. Is this WAI?

WAI, except the SD sneak speed boost shouldn't stack faster than maximum run speed.


Sev~

[ValariusK]

So you just made it to where no one will make an Aasimar Paladin, well done..do you actually think before you make this junk up???

And is it me or is Fighter getting way more PRR and AC then Paladin?

Thinking that protector is getting nerfed considerably relative to fallen type. If you made a aasimar paladin, fallen type is now kind of a no brainer.

[Fedora1]

Percentage HP

• Stalwart and Sacred Defender: remain at 20% Competence
• Nature's Protector: remains at 25% Competence
• Unyielding Sentinel: remains at 20% Insightful
• Aasimar stays typed as Sacred, goes to 5% down from 10%
• Bladeforged gains 5% Quality in a new Tier 4 (2 AP) in their Racial Tree.
• Paladin 18th core gains 10% Sacred HP (this is also in the above notes for clarity)
• Enlightened Spirit level 20 capstone stays at 20% Sacred
• Occult Slayer t5 Bond of Destruction gains 10% Quality
• Renegade Mastermaker goes to 10% Quality down from 20% racial
• Upgraded Zombie in t5 Palemaster goes to 10% Profane
• Shintao t5 gains 10% Quality in meditation of war earth stance (up from 3% untyped)
• Falconry t3 goes to 5% Quality (already 5% just adds a channel)
• Dwarf goes from 4% stacking to 5% Quality
• Warpriest core 4 (level 12) gets 10% Quality

Thoughts? First impressions?

How about the Epic Defensive Fighting feat? Currently a Competence Bonus that does not stack with Greater Stalwart Defense.

[LeoLionxxx]

Individual Changes

• Falconry: Coordinated Strike's cooldown has been reduced to 25 seconds from 60 seconds

I've noted on live that this attack's blindness effect doesn't make the enemies helpless. Is it supposed to?

If not, could the tooltip be updated to clarify this, since the other 2 bird attacks make enemies helpless.

[Ganak]

This is a huge nerf, I don't think people will catch onto yet. Pay attention to wording, they are basing it off your RANK now instead of your MODIFIER. My assassin rogue is crying.

My Hide on my tempest was about 120, which resulted in 40 damage sneak attack damage.

Now it will be 34.5.

Not a huge change, but I made sure to slot a hide item and hide bonuses of many sorts had an attractive appeal. I think build/gear diversity takes a hit with this change, and is this feat really overperforming in relation to devaluing hide bonuses outside of rank?

[J1NG]

Bugged, said in Lamannia, and now on here too:

Aasimar Healing Hands is either not WAI, or has a cap that was changed.

In notes, supposed to be:

Character Level (Max of 20) x Wisdom Modifier

In Lamannia, it is functioning as:

Character Level (Max of 10) x Wisdom Modifier

So either Aasimar will get a huge nerf to their Healing Hands healing, or we only get a partial nerf; depending on how the Devs intend the change that is.

:: edit ::

Has been reported by a Dev to have been fixed. So it's believed to be the original Max 20 instead of the Max 10, otherwise there would have been nothing to change.

J1NG

[HuneyMunster]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane now adds 1.5 Sneak Attack Damage per rank of Hide you have, instead of 1 for every 3 points of your total Hide score.

Is still dividing by total rank by 3 instead of multiplying by 1.5. So currently gives only 7 Sneak Attack Damage and the change seems to now remove the incentive of investing in your hide skill. If the Sneak Attack damage from this feat was too high and needed to be reduced I would have preferred it to have been changed to 1 for every 4 points of your total Hide score. This would result in those that have invested would still have around the same value as that of the current flat amount based on Ranks spent.

On a side note; due to the fact no matter how many points you've invested into hide and move silent monster will still zone in on you after about 30 seconds. Once spotted if you move 100 to 300 yards away, leaving them swing at air they will somehow have an Eureka moment and automatically know your exact location and run straight for you. They don't even have the eye icon or any other tell that they now know you location, they were looking in complete opposite direction to where you moved to. This is with 165 in both Hide and Move Silent and with Hiding in Plain Sight Feat that gives them penalties to their Spot.

[SerPounce]

EDF has significant, playstyle warping tradeoffs that 3 levels of Fighter do not.

That are mostly irrelevant to basic fighter and paladin builds. With EDF non-stacking those stances are interesting options for ranged/healing/caster builds, but pretty pointless to your standard melee that traditionally defined the classes.

[SerPounce]

If it's actually "per rank" it's a nerf. Rule of thumb cutoff for Ethereal vs Arborea is like 130-140 Hide, and it's pretty reasonable to have 160+ on a Dex-max endgame toon.

Also stuff like Sneak of Shadows is also getting indirectly nerfed if it's "per rank" not "per Hide modifier".

SoE becomes weaker in it's maximized form, but much less stringent on build/gear requirements. When silent avenger was hands down BiS this would have felt like a nerf, now it seems more like a lateral change.

[Fedora1]

So you just made it to where no one will make an Aasimar Paladin,

So no Aasimar paladin and no Aasimar warlocks.