U45 Preview 1: Balance Changes Main Thread

[Ladywolf]

Both Healing Hands and Lay on Hands had a behind the scenes bug for Preview 1 that erroneously capped your healing at roughly 33% of what it should be. This is fixed internally, thanks for the feedback

My point is it was at 23.9% not 33% so maybe something else needs internal fixing?

[chipotle47]

Sacred Defender

• Faith Shield (Fills empty T5 Slot): +10% Armor Class (same channel as EK), you are considered Shielded versus magic missiles, and have +12 SR.

Forgive me if someone asked this already and I missed it but just confirming. Same channel means that Faith Shield and the AC bonus from Mage Armor SLA will not stack correct?

[FuzzierSage]

You should have seen them before they nerfed helpless damage. ***shakes fist angrily*** Again, I'm just showing context to what real AoE dps for leveling looks like for reference to melee and ranged builds.

So, since they're nerfing Ranged builds and barely-buffing/mostly-nerfing Melee builds (in various flavors), what's your estimation on how long before we get a Caster nerf to "bring them in line" with the "vision"?

Since obviously, the solution to one fighting style (Melee) being underpowered relative to the current content is to nerf one of the other styles that can deal with the content (Ranged) while leaving the third style completely alone (Casters).

[SirValentine]

If they stacked, the 3 levels of paly and fighter would be mandatory in any melee dps build and make capstones inferior.

That would happen approximately as much as it used to happen when the stances used to not overlap with EDF, which was, occasionally, but not at all mandatory. I.e, just one valid build option. People made plenty of their melee Rogues, Barbs, Rangers, Monks without taking 3 levels of Fighter or Paladin.

I don't necessarily agree with saying they should stack (though that is one approach), but investing in the defensive trees should be a better benefit than what everyone gets for free. Why would you even bother taking +20% for AP when you get +25% for free? There's no point in such a thing even existing.

[Iriale]

So, since they're nerfing Ranged builds and barely-buffing/mostly-nerfing Melee builds (in various flavors), what's your estimation on how long before we get a Caster nerf to "bring them in line" with the "vision"?

Since obviously, the solution to one fighting style (Melee) being underpowered relative to the current content is to nerf one of the other styles that can deal with the content (Ranged) while leaving the third style completely alone (Casters).

Bah. The problem is that the problem is being focused poorly. As always, the focus is on the dps and it is not where the problem really is. Removing comparisons with the inquisitive, I tell you that the real problem of the melees is not the dps. I do not tell you to give him a buff, but I group with good melees very frequently and I already tell you that they have no less dps than a repeater build (certain melee builds have as much dps as the inquisitive, but require a greater investment than the inquisitive, they are not so easy to do, hence they are not so popular). The problem is rather that with reaper the cost of defenses to make a melee with good survival has grown a lot. And yes, there are characters who have enough investment (past lives, excellent gear, many reaper points) to overcome this increased cost, but for the average player (and let's not say the mediocre player), this is an important barrier. And if these toons change dps for more defenses, obviously their damage decreases.

So devs can destroy all ranged styles from orbit if they want, that those problems are not going to be solved like this.

And of course, with an approach as poor as what is being done now, the next step will be nerf the caster builds, although they have just been improved. Sometimes I have the feeling that in a matter of design direction, this game advances like a man with closed eyes: without direction and stumbling

[janave]

Percentage HP

• Stalwart and Sacred Defender: remain at 20% Competence
• Nature's Protector: remains at 25% Competence
• Unyielding Sentinel: remains at 20% Insightful
• Aasimar stays typed as Sacred, goes to 5% down from 10%
• Bladeforged gains 5% Quality in a new Tier 4 (2 AP) in their Racial Tree.
• Paladin 18th core gains 10% Sacred HP (this is also in the above notes for clarity)
• Enlightened Spirit level 20 capstone stays at 20% Sacred
• Occult Slayer t5 Bond of Destruction gains 10% Quality
• Renegade Mastermaker goes to 10% Quality down from 20% racial
• Upgraded Zombie in t5 Palemaster goes to 10% Profane
• Shintao t5 gains 10% Quality in meditation of war earth stance (up from 3% untyped)
• Falconry t3 goes to 5% Quality (already 5% just adds a channel)
• Dwarf goes from 4% stacking to 5% Quality
• Warpriest core 4 (level 12) gets 10% Quality

This HPs change is not yet helpful for primary tanks, and definitely removes viable builds for off-tanking.

• Sacred and Stalwart defender are the main tanky stances, they ought to perform as good as the DPS stance at least while armored. 25% is what makes sense on the low end, maybe up to 40% c5 / capstone investments.
• Aasimar is a far reach bonus, keep this at 10%, let off-tanks be a thing if they spend all those action points, the typing takes care of its overall usefulness, Paladins can completely skip it, very good change.
• Barbarians getting some is a very good change, they should be able to step in for a tank role when no main tanks are available. I would suggest to remove the buggy and little use Vampiric Bond which conflicts with One Spirit anyway, and add the Quality Hitpoints 3/6/10 and extra DR 1/2/3 % in its spot same 3 ranks spread for a much better enhancement. Elemental Defense could trigger a little more temp hitpoints too (Alchemist uses too so a little proxy buff there as well). Maybe up to 50 temp hps.
• Falconry typing, yes good change.
• Dwarf, 2x5% (spread in higher row) bonus would make sense, they are the toughness race after all.
• Warpriest, very good, they need to stay in melee and rely on much softer defenses compared to the tankier builds.

Others in the list look alright.

[chipotle47]

when the stances used to not overlap with EDF, .

We may be saying the same thing but IIRC those stances have never stacked with EDF since it's inception. They have always overlapped.

[Nickodeamous]

I am not one for handouts, but I think in the case where you are dramatically changing a Legendary Feat, we should get a free token to change out Ethereal, especially if you are heavily invested in Hide and all of the sudden, you have been nerfed.

Better yet, I think Legendary Feats, which are only available at 30, should be able to be swapped a la Twists of Fate at cost of Plat. Only Legendary Feats though.

Just a thought.
Nico

[Fedora1]

I am not one for handouts, but I think in the case where you are dramatically changing a Legendary Feat, we should get a free token to change out Ethereal, especially if you are heavily invested in Hide and all of the sudden, you have been nerfed.

Better yet, I think Legendary Feats, which are only available at 30, should be able to be swapped a la Twists of Fate at cost of Plat. Only Legendary Feats though.

Just a thought.
Nico

Actually anyone with an iquisitive, ranger, THF build should get a free +20 heart.

Less likely, but I also think Aasimars should get a way to change their race as well.

[DRoark]

They stopped listening awhile ago, because this patch is going to murder a huge percentage of Rangers. They won't admit it's a horrible
update and just fix the only main issue in balance. When a large chunk of the ranged Reaper/HC ubernaughts are ONE TREE.... Derp.

There were minimal issues, until that went live, and now they can't backpedal. Their "fix"? Nerf a decade old feat that's never been broken.

Tanks: Yay! We're awesome!
Casters (AOE): Look, the room just exploded!
Casters (Instakill): Look, the room just died!
Casters (CC): There yah go, melee!
Rogues: Yay! *STAB*
Healers: Business as usual!

Rangers: Looks at current IPS changes. *Burns a bow collection*. /Reroll Caster.
"Well, if they THINK I'm an AOE class, I may as well be an actual AOE".

I hope this is all wrong by the time this actually goes live, but they have a horrible track record of fixing anything that already hit test.

[Lynnabel]

I hope this is all wrong by the time this actually goes live, but they have a horrible track record of fixing anything that already hit test.

Worth noting that we've posted about this in a separate thread right here

[DRoark]

I read it, thank you, but I see nothing about them leaving IPS damage alone (unless I missed it) so I stand by my own testing.
The IPS feat doesn't make ranged builds "AOE", it requires positioning and having other feats, and changing that feat to fix the
universal tree issue, is just a poor choice, since it doesn't address the main Meta issue at all, it just hurts mechanics and rangers
disproportionally.

Based on what I've actually played (including the INQ builds), there were simpler solutions.

This is akin to claiming fireball hits too many kobolds, so you incease cast time, add a longer cooldown, and drop it's damage by 20% unless it only hits ONE target.

[charlieman]

Our changes focus on two major areas: all-seeing/tremor sense visibility and range, and movement speed while sneaking.

Stealth Movement Speed

• All Sneak Speed enhancements are now on the Enhancement channel, and therefore will not stack. We've also fixed the Antirequisite flags on these abilities to more reliably prevent players from taking more than one.
• Shadow Training II in Shadowdancer now gives a 150% Enhancement bonus to Stealth Movement Speed instead of setting you to the normal base movement.

Stealth Mechanics

• Monster's sight detection of stealthed players has been decreased by 28% (was 25 meters, now 18) if their Stealth score exceeds the monster's spot skill. This includes bosses and monsters that can see normally through stealth (All-Seeing).
• When the player is Stealthed, they now see a visual purple eye VFX over any monster that pierces Stealth (All-Seeing and All-Hearing/Tremorsense).
• Hearing range on "All-Hearing" monsters (aka monsters with Tremorsense) has been reduced by 10% (from 20 meters down to 18).

• #1. The new sight detection is ok but it wasn't much of a problem beforehand because if you played properly you could avoid it anyways - I like the All-Seeing aspect though
  #2. The new purple VFX is also a nice adjustment
  #3. Tremor sense change is nice but I don't think that 2% will have much of an effect at all.

Some other changes I was thinking about was possibly making move silently have some effect - maybe make wraith form turn tremor sense into a move silently roll and monsters SEARCH the area for you instead of automatically know where you are, OR Certain thresholds of move silently reduce the range of tremor sense up to a certain cap?

Another idea would be to have specifically reapers not automatically alert everyone where you are. Just aggro the reapers themselves until they do something to alert others - similar to how the kobold scouts currently function.

[Souless]

Good job not talking about the points I raised at all. SSG nerfs impact epic+ levels far more than heroic. Reduction in doubleshot and reduction in ranged power scaling have a far lesser impact in heroics than they do in epics and especially at cap. So your response is to say "look at this heroic damage output!". Golf clap.

Also, go ahead and ask for a screenshot that compares melee or ranged sustain with caster burst? What? What kind of screenshot is going to show the difference between a sorc throwing chain lightning and an inquisitive triggering No Holds Barred for 18 seconds into a red name after popping a reaper +30% doubleshot boost?

Screenshots don't prove anything.

Yes they do....It proves that u have a caster that u would rather remain in the background (or out) of this dumpster fire of a nerf fest!

Triggering NHB w/an animation (lag) only gives u casters the time u need to clear the field, thereby making my participation pointless.

And who cares about pumping a stream of arrows into the RED name. If u think that is so much fun I say u should post to have sorc single target dps increased (if they stand still) and reduce all AOE damage and instakills by 20%.

I want to lead the kill count! Just like u do!

The Bytcher~

Souless/Spectyr/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Xindao
Ascent

[Saekee]

Indeed, re the rationale: What problem was this intended to fix? Rogues beating barbs to the puzzles in Old Baba’s Hut?

As a trapper, I’m often behind groups after I’ve stopped to deal with a trap, and it’s a useful way to catch up.

And Saekee’s gang of folks having fun with these get hammered, but boy, I don’t know how they got so high on the hit list of the fun police.

I have expected the bug in SD super stealth speed clickie to be fixed but I have NO IDEA why they are against stacking sneak speeds from enhancement trees, especially since Sev wrote that it was WAI. The strongest stealthed toon is a pure rogue assassin; by multiclassing, you are giving up a powerful capstone and assassinate DCs. There are advanced players for which this will not matter since they have acquired tomes, gear, reaper pts etc but they are outliers. For the rest of us, we are sacrificing for the faster sneak movement.

It also happens to make the slow plodding nature of stealth play a lot funner.

As an aside, this does not affect my main who has 1 barb level for fast movement, not 2 ranger or 1 monk for faster sneaking. However, I will eventually do a 1 monk splash for other reasons. So this is not purely selfish but it saddens me to see our shrinking stealth community further diminished.

[Emerge2012]

• Reprisal: replaced with: The Thick of Battle (Tier 5): Striking enemies adds +10% Melee Threat. Max 10 stacks, 10 second timer, all stacks fade when timer runs out.

Alright so Reprisal was pretty pointless and all but Thick doesn't seem to be any better all said and done. 100% threat that you need to keep stacked by attacking is really next to nothing considering a tier 1 enhancement gets you 180%, not to mention the bonuses from stance. Any chance Thick could just be added to Against All Odds and then replaced by a Quality hp buff? Even just 5% would be nice seeing as fighter based tanks were already behind a paladin equivalent in just about every way.

Also any chance that Last Stand could cop a buff? The d10 heal on attack is nothing and the 100% extra hp don't mean much when the ability itself doesn't even heal you to that new max anyways. 2d20 heal on attack, Unyielding Sovereignty effect on cast, and 2 minute cooldown would be nice. Probably sounds like a lot but the reality is that fighter tanks are fun to play but far less effective than other options. All the extra feats for armor-based prr/mrr are washed by paladin's Harbored by Light, the DPS is washed by Divine Might (pally gets better attack bonus to boot), and the self/party healing and buffing is obviously not even close. Angel Skin change is just icing on a already superior cake.

I'd like to rebuild my fighter tank post update, and the fighter tree changes were much needed no doubt, but as it stands it looks like running paladin will simply be superior in just about every way.

[Zretch]

Yes they do....It proves that u have a caster that u would rather remain in the background (or out) of this dumpster fire of a nerf fest!

Triggering NHB w/an animation (lag) only gives u casters the time u need to clear the field, thereby making my participation pointless.

And who cares about pumping a stream of arrows into the RED name. If u think that is so much fun I say u should post to have sorc single target dps increased (if they stand still) and reduce all AOE damage and instakills by 20%.

I want to lead the kill count! Just like u do!

The Bytcher~

Souless/Spectyr/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Xindao
Ascent

This is such a horrible attitude. So the half second windup before NHB is going to cost you so many kills that you think you're now worthless in a group? If you don't lead the kill count, then you're worthless, so by extension, the people who run with you who don't lead the kill count (because you do), are all worthless. Stop looking at the kill count, seriously, it's a crappy metric and it causes ranged people to do some really bad and not group friendly things.

Obsessing over the kill count is what leads inquisitives to shoot over everyone's heads at mobs that are halfway across the map that no one else can even touch. It causes them to kill things before they even get in range of anyone, and the mobs that do actually make it to the group are all strung out and running past the melees, who now have to turn around and chase them.

This is the problem with the escalating pace of play that had combat resolve in a matter of seconds. It means there can only be one winner, and if you're not that winner, then call for nerfs until you are. Do you not see the progression here?

Melee were too strong, particularily monks and dog druids, so let's nerf them! (Oh, and while we're at it, let's throw in some changes that also nerf fighters because...hey....why not?)
But we're not stopping there, we'll also jack up spell damage because no one is playing a DPS casters in higher difficulties. We'll solve the mana effeciency problem by increasing spell damage which just destroys heroic and low difficulty balance rather than deal with it by making spells cost less mana as difficulty scales up because....reasons.
Let's not stop there, let's introduce Inquisitive with a massive boost to ranged DPS.
Then we'll go ahead and re-do Epic Destinies to add a bunch more ranged power, DCs, and Spell crit damage into the cores, while subtly nerfing monks again.
And finally we'll go ahead and change the reaper damage modifier to increase spell and ranged damage even more in reaper mode.

So here we are, with both ranged and casters just face-rolling low difficulty content, but also being far more useful in higher skull content and the community calling for nerfs once again. Why were ranged targeted and not casters? Because of that obsession with the kill count. You can't kill things before melee can even get to them and expect melee to not say anything. Once these changes go through, I'm positive that the torch and pitchfork crowd will turn to sorcs next and nuking builds will be back to where they were before...nonviable for anything but low difficulty (R3 and below) and everyone will go back to casters doing CC and insta-kill while melee chew up helpless mobs, deathwarded mobs, and bosses.

Golf-clap for the nerf-mongers.

[DYWYPI]

Stealth Mechanics

Cocomajobo, I get the impression none of the DDO Developers are regularly playing Assassins in the stealth player sense.

[...] Monster's sight detection of stealthed players has been decreased by 28% (was 25 meters, now 18) if their Stealth score exceeds the monster's spot skill. This includes bosses and monsters that can see normally through stealth (All-Seeing). ...

Since the change of monster 'visual detection' range dropping from: 25 metres to 18 metre (metre is the correct spelling for a unit of length) is mostly irrelevant. Because it's quite easy to get well within 18 metre of a 'hostile' and not get detected by a generic mob. I presume you mean an 18 metre Spot Radius?

Even on a first life default path 'The Dark Blade' Rogue using random gear. Refer to any of my posts within the thread: R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players!, e.g. [Post #428]. I'm using a default path first life Rogue and mostly using random equipment to partly illustrate that point.

That was a rather mediocre run and it could have gone more smoothly but that's mainly due to the flipping annoying dark-purple shadowfell (plane) visuals nonetheless it was done during Preview U45.

I play Assassins exclusively when on my home server. I don't tend to have much difficulty sneaking past most regular type mobs regardless of whether they are moving around. Although I do prefer to silently neutralise and thin out certain targets due to the current malfunctioning chain reaction aggravation.

Therefore I'm not a stealthy full mob avoidance player albeit even I can manage those "R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre" quests that require "mostly zero or minimal kills" without too many hiccups. I can inform you it's not generally a 25 or 18 metre distance that's a problem with potentially being detected. It's trivial to get much closer and not be noticed.

I assume you've mainly made the changes for people who are carelessly rushing through wilderness zones (with a Character without ranks in Hide and Move Silently). Or perhaps in quests where the stealthy player is already at imminent risk of getting rained down upon by arrows or spells, i.e. from already; active and highly aggravated mobs.

Spot distance was never the problem with Rogue Stealth play: Post Reaper mode, anyway. It's faulty chain reaction aggravation that's the problem, not spot proximity. Any Assassin worth their salt can easily approach a generic mob to Assassinate and not get detected and Spot range was never the main issue with the current faulty stealth mechanics (from the players perspective).

I don't know what I've seen, was it all an illusion? All a mirage gone bad.

It's fair enough about the updated "Purple Visual Effect" Eyes for "Tremor Sense" mobs. For example; if you get random Champion or Caster combinations that maybe be able to detect stealthy players' via 'True Seeing', etc. Although to be honest you'll typically know long beforehand if a concealed but none directly visible Ooze or Spider is already close by when in Sneak via your Listen skill.

[...] Hearing range on "All-Hearing" monsters (aka monsters with Tremorsense) has been reduced by 10% (from 20 meters down to 18). ...

So you'd decided approximately a "body length" reduction in their 'audible detection range' is going to be a game changer when faced with an Ooze, I'm really not following how you are coming to these conclusions. The problem isn't the distance from the monster before it detects you, it's the fact once detected they are hard to shake off...

Let's take an example: the Oozes (Ochre Jelly) in 'Garl's Tomb' and 'The Troglodytes' Get' are some of the best "trackers" in the game! It's amazing how far they will faithfully travel to reach you. The early ones will go around corridors, climb up stairs continue following on, out of the room, along the passages... their range is crazy. All that time they are "locked on" to your position. They'll likely travel well over a few hundred metres in the hopes of digesting you.

It suggests you haven't been actually testing the stealth system using Sneak and playing through quests. To be honest it's looking more like you picked some figures at random to reduce both: Spot and Listen type checks. In the hopes it would look as though you were doing something greatly beneficial. Does reducing the Spot and Listen range reduce monster chain reaction aggravation from spreading; if the player is detected?

Reducing monster Spot and Listen distance was never asked for; just like removing the requirements for needing Sneak attack condition to Assassinate - certainly wasn't asked for by the Stealth enthusiasts. :-/

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to how you think those new reduced monster's "perception" distance values are highly beneficial to "balance" (or a major improvement) with regards to Stealth and Sneaking. I'm sure the stealth enthusiasts would [look] forward to hearing your response, with a clear explanation of how you were conducting the tests. :-)

[o2t4f]

I wanted to test this but didn't have time while lam was up. Didn't find anyone mentioning it either.

From what I read, strikethrough seems like a really good change for THF on fury of the wild. Is that really the case? A good extra chance for vorpals with the extra hits when fighting groups of enemies.

Did anyone test how it performed?

[Torrun_McScaly]

if your touching up stalwart defender can something be done about it cap last stand. as its very lack luster for being a cap. like maybe get rid of the active part of it and make it all passive. keep the +2 str, +6 con and +2 tactic DCs. drop the 100% hp buff to 50% passive, make the prr and mmr 30 passive and make the heals on being hit 2d10 as 1d10 is just pathetic for being really the only "self healing" a fighter gets and does almost nothing in reaper. stalwart defender is a tank tree make it more TANKY. EDF shouldn't grant more HP then the tank trees.