U45 Preview 1: Balance Changes Main Thread

[Carpone]

With U45's focus on realigning ranged damage so it no longer overshadows melee dmg, there's something that hasn't been mentioned: Making Project Nemesis more accessible to melee.

Melee are currently redheaded stepchildren in Project Nemesis:
1. Cannot effectively DPS Irk or Zulkis.
2. Increased chance of dying from Rudus' superman jump due to the ever present lag in the raid.

I would have added a third about the DPS loss of running in and out of battery room circles that are cast every 3 seconds, but I think that's been largely addressed by the welcomed "Charge" changes.

Because of these two issues, ranged are currently preferred over melee in Project Nemesis. With the U45 range damage adjustments, ranged is much less desired than pre-U45. However, there's still a disincentive to bring melee because of #1 and #2. Instead the post-U45 meta will shift to bring more nukers to replace the inferior ranged toons.

[Sythe777]

I'm fine with Draconic Fury going up to a 90 second cooldown, people should be treating it like a boost for longer/harder fights. However, a 60 second cooldown for dragon breath is pretty rough. Why not just make Dragon Breath and Energy burst the same cooldown at 40 seconds? They both do roughly the same damage so they should both have roughly the same cooldown.

[count_spicoli]

Epic defensive fighting and the pally and fighter stances should 100% stack. These 2 classes need a buff and this would help to some extent. If you worried about only the 3 levels of fighter or pally being abused then moving them into the cores at around 12 or so. That way you still have to put more of an investment into the class to get the benefit.

[krimsonrane]

"
Stealth Movement Speed
All Sneak Speed enhancements are now on the Enhancement channel, and therefore will not stack. We've also fixed the Antirequisite flags on these abilities to more reliably prevent players from taking more than one.
Shadow Training II in Shadowdancer now gives a 150% Enhancement bonus to Stealth Movement Speed instead of setting you to the normal base movement."


So are you saying that to increase stealth speed you get ONE enhancement that doesn't stack with anything else until epic levels and then you HAVE TO use the shadowdancer ED to improve it?

[CeltEireson]

As part of the pass of balance changes for Hardcore Season 2 we are giving Melee builds the ability to quickly close the gap with enemies. We're doing this in the form of opening up the availability of "Charge" attacks that allow melee characters to quickly get into melee range with enemies and improving the reliability and feel of charge attacks across the board.

Changes

• The Feat "Spring Attack" has been redesigned to be an active charge attack that causes you to "Leap forward striking a target enemy and all those around them. Requires a visible target and that you are holding a melee weapon."
• As part of the Knight of the Chalice revamp that enhancement tree now has an active charge attack ability in tier 3 called "Lead the Charge"
• All "targeted" charge abilities (the fast movement attacks that require you to target a specific enemy to use) will now get you to the enemy faster than previously.
• All "targeted" charge abilities now handle turning more gracefully.
• All "targeted" charge abilities now have had their animation smoothed out (the strange hitch when charging should now be gone).
• All "targeted" charge abilities will more easily handle changes in elevation (charging at enemies up ramps and the like).

Known Issues

• N/A

Just to clary - the new spring attack applies to monks with handwraps as well?

[Montegue]

I really enjoy playing my Ranger.

I feel like I will no longer even be able to solo on Epic Elite with him, which is the majority of how I play this game (Solo, since our server pop is low and everyone's on the TR chain. If you're off their usual cycle, you don't get groups in certain level ranges).

The tempest nerf feels really excessive, and I'm afraid my Ranger is going to become too frustrating to play. Sigh.

Please reconsider.

[Itchybeard]

...

• All "targeted" charge abilities now have had their animation smoothed out (the strange hitch when charging should now be gone)....

Does this include "charging" animations like Leap of Faith and Abundant Step-like stuff? I know you said 'targeted' but was hoping these might not feel hitched anymore as well. Thanks

[SpartanKiller13]

So if you have max ranks in hide, and a hide score of 103 or less, it's a buff... but if you have a hide score of 104 or higher, it's a nerf.

question about the new SA and Hide method. For me, I have 102 hide, so this actually calculates better for me. I play a monk, and choose ethereal but I am not wondering if I should go to arborea or back to astral plain.

Every time I do the math I've shown Arborea to have better DPS than current Ethereal until a bunch higher than 104 Hide (between 120 and 160 depending on build/gear etc). Also it's not limited by stuff immune to SA, and scales all your other effects (active attacks etc) which I didn't factor in the previous calculations.

I guess where I'm at is if you're only hitting 100 Hide, just take Arborea and save yourself the hassle.

Astral could be worth on Monks, the Dodge & Cap is pretty nice in conjunction with the 8% DS; but if you're near DS cap or use DS boost, it's fairly doable to overcap so I haven't run numbers on that. My instinct is outside of Monks it's not worth considering next to Arborea, but please run some numbers

Pretty sure they're not changing Warlock ES to Sacred from Competence, that's just a typo. Warlock ES capstone doesn't stack with EDF, nor does it stack with Aasimir, so warlocks won't be coming anywhere close to 70%.

ES stance doesn't stack with EDF, which totally nukes that idea - good thing probs. Will post updated list at bottom.

Zombie looks like the highest theoretical hitpoints, but at a pretty large cost to their ability to be healed. The tanking sets all carry positive healing amp, and zombie cuts positive healing by 50%. Also, Aasimir hitpoint boost is a stance, just like zombie form, so you can't stack them, which puts you down at 60%, equal to a paladin 18, but with fewer options for being healed. You'll also need to figure out how to fit negative heal amp and nullification spellpower into your gear while still maintaining your tank set, resists, natural armor bonuses, etc, etc. Sure, you can have a high hitpoint tank that gets hit REALLY HARD, can't be healed well by anyone in the group, and struggles to hold agro, but...what's the point in that?

Why bother with negative healing? Just itemize Healamp a bit more and move on lol, especially with so many sources of healamp these days; positive healing a PM is like self-healing in R1, except even less of a penalty (50% off instead of 60%). Zombie form not stacking with Aasimar is news to me, and doesn't help their percentages - but they can use Cleric Core 4, which I didn't factor.

Monk needs to be centered to get that HP bonus, so they'll be sporting a PRR significantly lower than a fighter/paladin tank, and an MRR that's even lower than that. This one, however, doesn't have the self healing that a cleric or pale master hybrid tank would have.

Monk is for avoidance tanking - Evasion and hilarious Dodge goes a long ways; not relevant for THTH or PN as much, but my point is that Monk can have more HP than Fighter.

I think you're underestimating the impact of Warpriest core 4 addition of 10% quality hitpoints. Favored Soul at level 7 ( I think ) has the option to take 10 hitpoints per favored soul level, and cleric animal domain has a bundle of hitpoints at level 9 or so. There's already a shift towards tanks that can also heal in the META, so I would bet that you're more likely to see people pulling out of 5 arti RM but keeping their 11 to 17 levels of cleric or favored soul rather than trying to be a warlock, wizard, or monk tank. Just my opinion.

True, my brain glossed right over that. Note that FvS uses War Soul tree though, they're not identical. Potentially it also will give that buff, but it's not listed where I can see.

My tank is already Animal Cleric 11 (and an off-healer), so might as well go for it. It just doesn't really stack with the other Quality HP options, but not requiring a T5 does put you ahead of the curve (as you can drop that into a useful tree).

Still, I'm not arguing which is the most optimal tank all around (that'll be another day); I'm arguing that it's ridiculous that a Wizard can have more HP than a Fighter, assuming they're willing to play melee range only (like an entire Wizard tree was designed around).

Updated Tier List:

• PM T5, Warpriest Core 4: 65% bonus HP (EDF, US, Warpriest) - requires Wizard 5 and T5, Cleric 12
• Artificer T5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Artificer 5 & T5
• Barbarian T5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Barbarian 5 & T5
• Monk T5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Monk 5 & T5
• Paladin Core 5: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Falconry/BF/Dwarf)
• Warpriest Core 4: 60% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar) - requires Cleric 12
• Other: 55% bonus HP (EDF, US, Aasimar, Falconry)

So, Wizard/Cleric is the highest %HP option (possibly highest total HP too, given Con bonuses and Animal Domain?). Even has 3 levels left to throw at Paladin/Fighter for 25 PRR/MRR, +6 Con etc.

Cleric, Monk, and Artificer all have better %HP than Fighter if they're willing to run EDF, which seems odd. Barbarian/Paladin I don't mind as much.

[J1NG]

Just to clary - the new spring attack applies to monks with handwraps as well?

Yes, it applies.

Practice its use to get a better feel for its application.

J1NG

[Nickodeamous]

It depends on your current melee power, I would think.

34.5 SA damage is going to be scaled by your current melee power by 150%, so the more melee power you have, the higher that 34.5 scales up. If you have low melee power, the +20 melee power is a no-brainer, IMO. If you've got high melee power, then doublestrike will be a straight 8% damage increase, however if you're close to doublestrike cap (100%), then you water down its impact.

It also depends on how often you're getting SA. Do you run with a tank 100% of the time? Are you a rogue who can break SA immunity on undead and constructs? Do you have deception/improved deception weapons/gear?

So yea, I hate to say it, but it depends. Honestly, though, I don't think you can go wrong with 20 melee power or 8% doublestrike. If you're swimming in melee power and at the doublestrike cap, however, then go SA as you can no longer get it to ramp up with gear, buffs, and Sneak of Shadows.

Yeah more info woulf be helpful for sure. So here is what i have. I play a monk and i hit SA pretty often. I use deception items at cap. 14% and i have either insightful or quality deception. Cant recall which right now. My Melee Power is a standing 190 and my doublestrike is 72%. In reaper, my MP is 208 standing (unbuffed) and if i use reaper doublestrike i hit 100% DS.

Does this help? Thanks again!!
Nico

[Zretch]

Still, I'm not arguing which is the most optimal tank all around (that'll be another day); I'm arguing that it's ridiculous that a Wizard can have more HP than a Fighter, assuming they're willing to play melee range only (like an entire Wizard tree was designed around).

Remember, wizards are a base d4 hitpoint class, fighters are d10. In order to get 25% EDF, you're not just given it for free, it costs 4 feats. Last I checked, clerics/FvS and wizards weren't exactly swimming in feats, so you should probably check to see what feats you need to give up and make sure they're not things like the shield mastery line, shield deflection, insightful reflexes and/or force of personality, etc, etc. Also, while you can certainly build a pale master for positive healing amp, I'm not sure how that's going to work for your self heals. You get the self healing penalty stacked on top of the 50% reduction and you've got lower caster levels to boot. I'm still dubious that the game is going to be overrun by 12 Cleric, 3 Fighter, 5 Wizard zombie tanks. That class mix won't be good at anything other than tanking, and I don't think it would be top of the heap at that job either.

Wizard tanks are more likely going to be upwards of 15-17 wizard with a small splash of paladin for proficiencies and the defensive toggle. Screw EDF, take 3 paladin, get the 20% hitpoint bonus out of Sac Def, and have spellpower / DC swap gear for when tanking isn't required, trading off theoretical max hitpoints for a HUGE increase to self healing. Again, just my opinion.

[Zretch]

Yeah more info woulf be helpful for sure. So here is what i have. I play a monk and i hit SA pretty often. I use deception items at cap. 14% and i have either insightful or quality deception. Cant recall which right now. My Melee Power is a standing 190 and my doublestrike is 72%. In reaper, my MP is 208 standing (unbuffed) and if i use reaper doublestrike i hit 100% DS.

Does this help? Thanks again!!
Nico

I think your reaper boost will take you to 102% doublestrike, which is over cap already, so if you have lots of reaper points that give you plenty of charges of that boost, then I'd probably avoid Astral. +20 on top of 190/208 is a good 6.8% damage boost, so that's not bad. 34 SA damage at 150% melee power would be an extra ~99 damage per hit. If you're hitting harder than ~450 damage front number per hit currently, then I'd go with Arboria. Also, if you have a good amount of crit die, I'd also go Arboria as sneak attack damage can't crit.

[Unsinful]

Currently in the game tanks have extremely crazy standing HP due to stacking percentile bonuses. The "change" to HP is not a nerf imo but more of a balance change that is healthy for the game. While I am fine with these HP changes it is important to note that the other changes are more impactful than people losing their HP.

Currently in game there are several good tank builds:
11 Fvs/5 Arty/4 Fighter
14 Fighter/5 Arty/1 Wizard
15 Arty/4 Pally/1 Wizard
14 Fighter/5 Pally/1 Wizard
12 Wiz/4 Barb/4 Fighter

with pure pally (on live and lam) and pure fighter (on live not lam) coming nowhere close.

With the current proposed changes to HP these aforementioned tanks are all still usable but are all going to lose some HP from either falconry, their race or arty.
My big concern is the fact that Paladins who take 18 levels or 20 levels are still falling behind these weird split tanks.
They are getting 5% more HP but from not splitting they are losing:
Double Dip AC enhancements, potential HP and mass amounts of PRR.

For pally to have a chance, their 18 core needs more fluff, their capstone needs something better and they need even more HP to stand out more from other builds. Also being so heavily feat starved makes it so they are less likely to take feats for Epic Defensive Fighting which means they are on par for HP with a fighter or they lose feats for more defense so either way its a loss.

Now lets shift to Fighter...
As a pure fighter you still miss out on that double dip AC BUT they are getting 15% exceptional AC in tier 5 which is a 5% gain over a wiz split or a pally.
They also gain 25 flat AC while being hit (which is bugged on lamannia atm and doesn't work). They also gain 50% threat from core 18 and 25 PRR from that core. Fighters also get up to 100% more threat from tier 5 (also bugged on lamannia atm) which puts them just 50% short of paladin and the paladin requires a boost that is limited by the number of turns you have (around 30 on a pure pally in my testing).
To round it out Fighter gets a feat every 2 levels (3 more than a 14 fighter split) and their feats allow them to take the 30 PRR/MRR defensive mastery feats that a paladin will never see which separates them even further from pure Pally.
Finally, going pure fighter gets you the capstone that gives flat PRR/MRR as well as an action boost (that doesn't share cooldowns) that essentially doubles your hit points for 30 seconds every 3 minutes. I REALLY like this capstone and think its great and going pure should be rewarded but pally needs something to compete.

Tanks went from being versatile and fun to build and test splits to being "BE THIS ONE BUILD OR BE WORSE" which is really a disappointing change in my opinion. I don't think pure fighter needs a nerf, but rather i think that pure pally needs to come up some and maybe think about not lowering the arty HP so that those tanks can still exist as an option. It's uninteresting to have every tank be pure fighter because nothing will ever touch it and I know its tough to balance because pure SHOULD be the best tank but i think that other tanks are falling much too far behind atm with all the potential HP changes and the fact that Pally isn't getting as much love.

tl:dr Bring Pally up to Fighter level by making it more unique somehow (perhaps massive MRR?) and maybe bring Arty back up to 20% hp so that those split tanks can still have more HP than a fighter but be options for when you don't need crazy PRR.

[Zretch]

tl:dr Bring Pally up to Fighter level by making it more unique somehow (perhaps massive MRR?) and maybe bring Arty back up to 20% hp so that those split tanks can still have more HP than a fighter but be options for when you don't need crazy PRR.

Honestly they could probably manage this FAR more simply by doing the following:

All hitpoint % bonuses in a class tree are typed Competence. Fighter and Paladin get 25% plus an additional 10% in their 18/20 cores, RMM and Bear get 20% plus an additional 10% in their 18/20 cores, Warlock and Wizard get 20% (or something like that).
All hitpoint % bonuses in universal trees are typed Quality.
All hitpoint % bonuses in racial trees are typed Racial.

Keep EDF the same.

There, now goofball class splits don't matter because none of it stacks. Going strong fighter or paladin gets you 10% more hitpoints than EDF without needing the EDF feats. Splashing fighter or paladin on DPS classes can still be done, but you lose capstone in your class and you're still not ahead of where you'd be with EDF anyway. Pick a tanking race, dip into falconry, and viola!

[Tilomere]

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

Draconic tree dragon breath moved from 25 seconds to 60 seconds is a terrible idea - dragon breath is resisted by a great number of mobs in legendary content, and if you can make it hit, it is free which allows the sorc or wizard in that destiny to quest and dps without needing to shrine every other room. If you must nerf this to hit that hallucinated dps gameplay target how about making it like energy burst and force storm, on a 30 seconds timer that costs 20 mana, that way you don't force sorcs and wizards out of legendary groups for being out of mana tag alongs.

Unless your goal is to require wizards and sorcs to purchase hundreds and hundreds of supreme mana pots from the DDO store for real money, in which case why not move dragon breath to a 2 minute timer or 3? Why not just remove it all together and replace it with a skill 'dance with the dragons,' where the wizard or sorc dances for the group of 10 legendary mobs that rush to one-shot her/him.

[MeliCat]

Every time I do the math I've shown Arborea to have better DPS than current Ethereal until a bunch higher than 104 Hide (between 120 and 160 depending on build/gear etc). Also it's not limited by stuff immune to SA, and scales all your other effects (active attacks etc) which I didn't factor in the previous calculations.

I guess where I'm at is if you're only hitting 100 Hide, just take Arborea and save yourself the hassle.

Astral could be worth on Monks, the Dodge & Cap is pretty nice in conjunction with the 8% DS; but if you're near DS cap or use DS boost, it's fairly doable to overcap so I haven't run numbers on that. My instinct is outside of Monks it's not worth considering next to Arborea, but please run some numbers

My guildie just concluded that Ethereal is dead now too - he has 160 hide. Oh well. It was interesting while it lasted. Back to boring old basic damage.

[HungarianRhapsody]

What spell did you cast and care to share the combat log?

[0ldschool]

Sorry if already mentioned but Scion of Ethereal is ticking across the screen every time I move or stop. Guessing that this is caused by the changing Hide score due to In The Weeds from Shiradi. Obviously this needs to invisible.

[Tilomere]

What spell did you cast and care to share the combat log?

Soundburst off the 44 wis, followed by ball lightning off the 44 charisma. I don't play with a combat log.

See, staff builds OP yo! Nerf Henshin!

Edit ball lightning, chain lightning is here.