U45 Preview 1: Balance Changes Main Thread

[J-mann]

Attack bonus is not analogous to spell penetration.

Mob crowd control immunities are not the same between melee and casters.

You are only right in that to hit always applies whereas SR does not. Otherwise it functions EXACTLY the same. Mob cc immunities are exactly the same for the exact same cc type. Hold is not a stun, even then I can think of many mobs I can hold but not stun, not so many of the reverse. Maybe casters need spell aoe capped at 200% just like 2hf huh?

[palladin9479]

Hold is technically a paralyze which is not the same as stun. Anything immune to mind effecting abilities should also be immune to hold, though this game doesn't seem to implement that completely. Stun is a stronger version of daze that isn't interrupted from taking damage.

Stuning Blow / Fist / Trip would be nice until reaper, then it's Dire Charge or bust. Dire Charge is already AoE so no real change there. Ear Smash is the real winner as that thing has no save and renders stuff helpless and thus useful all the way to R10.

[J-mann]

Ah. Its Bluff effect is AOE, but the damage is single-target. We can take a look into that one.

Any thoughts on making cleaves scale? Attack speed, double strike, and adrenaline should effect them.

[J-mann]

Hold is technically a paralyze which is not the same as stun. Anything immune to mind effecting abilities should also be immune to hold, though this game doesn't seem to implement that completely. Stun is a stronger version of daze that isn't interrupted from taking damage.

Stuning Blow / Fist / Trip would be nice until reaper, then it's Dire Charge or bust. Dire Charge is already AoE so no real change there. Ear Smash is the real winner as that thing has no save and renders stuff helpless and thus useful all the way to R10.

But its not supposed to except on a vorpal hit. Otherwise it should just be a sleep effect which is interrupted on damage. They just need to fix ear smash and done.

[Kinerd]

Anyone playing thf who isn't a moron is going to take whatever enhancements are reasonably available to get to 3 targets per swing.

they don't exist

i encourage you to read the changes thoroughly, you would be much happier

[Capricorpus]

they don't exist

i encourage you to read the changes thoroughly, you would be much happier

I encourage you to google the term hyperbole and consider the possibility that there are people who understand the implications of changes on what passes for endgame content better than you do.

[Tobril]

A bit of a preview of a couple of changes we're tentatively planning for Lamannia Round 2:
All instances of Divine Might (Cleric, Fvs, and Paladin) are now: "Battle Trance: You gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage, and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds."

These changes seem like problematic for a few reasons:

1) Many popular gearsets for the near future will have insightful damage and insightful accuracy
2) Using the same bonus type may create problematic item design in the future
3) This is a bit of a nerf...there are several insightful damage 8 items...breaking even would require insightful 16 to the character's damage stat...most work in a 9/10 insightful stat already
4) Reiterating on #1, it seems more appropriate to place these new bonuses in a separate and unique "type" reserved for battle stances

If the real goal is to prevent strange combinations of classes from stacking battle stances, preserve the option to make interesting items with insightful damage/attack, and provide compelling reasons to consider splashing for a battle stance vs. staying pure for capstones...I would recommend looking at #4 and slightly dial back the overall battle stance benefit.

[Mindos]

Insightful Strength: Given that this will no longer provide any bonus to Strength, equip away.

Huh? This statement doesn't make any sense. Insightful strength items will no longer increase your strength? So why are you telling us to equip it? Isn't strength the attack/damage mod? So wouldn't insightful strength increase damage dealt?

I'm so confused.

[RS-Makk]

Lynn

As far as the DoD changes, could you clarify what’s different now?

Prior preview changes were that other than the timer, the mechanic would go to strike through, you would ha w to be still to activate, and there would be a max of 3 targets as well as special attacks / effects would only apply to first target and not apply to other targets.

Is the only update the timer stays and it’s ok to move?

What about special attack/effects?

Thank you

[Lynnabel]

you would ha w to be still to activate

This was never true - even on Lamannia. This ability never required you to be still, even with the change to Strikethrough. I had naively assumed players would have assumed as much or at the very least would have tried the ability out for themselves, and that's on me.

[Fedora1]

Huh? This statement doesn't make any sense. Insightful strength items will no longer increase your strength? So why are you telling us to equip it? Isn't strength the attack/damage mod? So wouldn't insightful strength increase damage dealt?

I'm so confused.

The new Divine Might now provides insightful hit/damage/tactics dc, and will no longer provide an insightful strength bonus, so there will be no conflict with an insightful strength item, so you can equip the item just fine.

[Mindos]

The new Divine Might now provides insightful hit/damage/tactics dc, and will no longer provide an insightful strength bonus, so there will be no conflict with an insightful strength item, so you can equip the item just fine.

Ok thank you, now it makes sense. Steels "this" wasn't referring to Strength Insightful items, but to Divine Might.

[palladin9479]

Huh? This statement doesn't make any sense. Insightful strength items will no longer increase your strength? So why are you telling us to equip it? Isn't strength the attack/damage mod? So wouldn't insightful strength increase damage dealt?

I'm so confused.

It's giving Insightful Deadly instead, which is kinda a nerf to anyone running Strength builds as +8 insightful Deadly is worth more then +10 Insightful Strength and the Deadly bonus doesn't get the percentage increase the stats got.

[J-mann]

Huh? This statement doesn't make any sense. Insightful strength items will no longer increase your strength? So why are you telling us to equip it? Isn't strength the attack/damage mod? So wouldn't insightful strength increase damage dealt?

I'm so confused.

If you used divine might insightful strength was useless as divine might would overwrite it. This is no longer the case as they switched it to the 1/2 attack, damage, and dcs version.

[RS-Makk]

This was never true - even on Lamannia. This ability never required you to be still, even with the change to Strikethrough. I had naively assumed players would have assumed as much or at the very least would have tried the ability out for themselves, and that's on me.

Thanks Lynn - what about the effects (like exposing strike). Do those now only work on first target or will they apply to all targets hit?

[droid327]

It's giving Insightful Deadly instead, which is kinda a nerf to anyone running Strength builds as +8 insightful Deadly is worth more then +10 Insightful Strength and the Deadly bonus doesn't get the percentage increase the stats got.

Its also a nerf to niche builds like Strength Domain that used the actual Strength attribute for things besides damage and tactical DCs.

[Monkey_Archer]

A bit of a preview of a couple of changes we're tentatively planning for Lamannia Round 2:

Two Handed:

• The Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
• The Improved Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2.5x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
• The Greater Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 3x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.

This is a change from the last Lamannia, where Greater Two Handed Fighting was pushing this to 2x. Our goal here is to push single-target Two Handed DPS past what it currently does on Live, to compensate for the loss in single-target damage from Glancing Blows and to push them closer to other styles. Across the several THF builds we've tested with this change, a small number broke even with their Live damage numbers, but most pushed ahead of their Live damage numbers.

I'm interested in which builds were tested... This is obviously a very large buff (relative to the previous iteration) for Fighters and Barbarians, but it still doesn't address the main problem with removing glancing blows. Effects based builds (Rogues, EK, Alchemist, KOTC, etc.) don't need more attribute/crit scaling, they need effects scaling (which they partially had with glancing blows).

This aside I have a few questions:
- Do bastard sword and dwarvern axe gain the full 2-3x attribute?
- Has the greataxe swing speed (bug?) been addressed/fixed?
- Are my concerns about effects builds being considered or should THF players stick to fighters and barbs only?

For most builds using Divine Might, this change comes out to the same Attack and Damage numbers. For Two Handed Weapons, it comes out somewhat lower but should be compensated for in the above Two Handed changes. (If it isn't offsetting that well enough, we can make further changes before U45 goes Live). One concern expressed by players who have already seen the above THF changes was that the existing Divine Might would become nearly mandatory on THF builds, including Barbarians/Fighters/etc, since the bonus to Strength would be amplified considerably further than it used to. We wanted to ensure that this wouldn't cause anyone to lose Attack, so we've added that to Divine Might and Divine Will. This makes those slightly stronger than Know the Angles and Deadly Instincts in those respects, but we are alright with the class-based versions granting Attack while the Universal-tree-based Trances do not. This should be a buff for many characters using alternate to-hit and to-damage stats, as well as to Divines who use skills that scale with Tactical Feats (Sunder, Trip, etc, which now work with Strikethrough as above).

While I do support making class based trances stronger, I'm a bit concerned that the now non-stacking insight bonus is effectively a double nerf to most effects based builds that used it. (Int based rogues/EK/alchemist, wisdom q-staff monks, etc...)

[DRoark]

Its also a nerf to niche builds like Strength Domain that used the actual Strength attribute for things besides damage and tactical DCs.

I had a much higher STR than using a INS +10 item. This would drop his STR by a huge amount. I'm losing over 25 STR, which is insane.
They just can't leave things alone, it's like giving the remote control to a 3-year-old while you're trying to watch the Superbowl.

I have zero reasons to stay with a domain healer now, STR was his "thing", and he usually opened the doors. Now what, become a "tactical trip cleric"? Thanks.

[Jerevth]

I don't see much likelihood of 3 target hits being more than a statistical anomaly (Correction- as pointed out with a sane but specific build you might achieve a third target every fourth swing.) unless the Devs increase strike through chances or introduce an additional slot mechanic (crafting or gem) to achieve the cap of three.

Fireball/acid burst/ etc don't have a cap beyond the density of the mobs in a space.

I'd like to see Lammania open for at least a week, bookended by both weekends, so people can get some real play testing in.
The Devs are open to input and constructive feedback, most of the players who do this asked for Lam to be open on the weekend. Additionally, a longer period allows for those epiphany moments to test niche cases*. Three or four days will see the obvious aspects tested. Nine days would allow for a more thorough validation. The release isn't likely to come out until the end of next month... use that time.

*Niche cases such as the one Droid327 and DRoark are discussing. Significant ramifications there that may not have been anticipated.

[Dimz]

As part of U45 we're reshuffling where percentage HP can be found, as well as cleaning up and polishing the Tier 5s and late cores of Stalwart and Sacred Defender. We hope these changes open up a lot of new Tank builds and ease some of the pressure to multiclass for dedicated Tank players.

Stalwart Defense

• Stand Fast (Core 12): Instead of an Action Boost that ends Fear and Knockdown, this is now Fear and Knockdown immunity passively
• Defensive Sweep (Core 18): No longer an active. Now passively adds +15% Exceptional bonus to Armor Class , +50% threat, and +25 PRR.
• Against All Odds (Fills empty T5 Slot): +5 AC, taking damage adds a stacking +2 AC, stacks 10 times
• Reprisal: replaced with: The Thick of Battle (Tier 5): Striking enemies adds +10% Melee Threat. Max 10 stacks, 10 second timer, all stacks fade when timer runs out.

Sacred Defender

• Glorious Stand (Core 18): No longer an active. Now passively adds +10% Sacred Bonus to Max HP, +25 Healing Amp, +3 Lay on Hands charges
• Eternal Defender (Core 20): 250 Unconsciousness Range instead of 40.
• Faith Shield (Fills empty T5 Slot): +10% Armor Class (same channel as EK), you are considered Shielded versus magic missiles, and have +12 SR.
• Reprisal: replaced with: Divine Revelation (Tier 5): Improves your Aura of Courage. +4 Additional SR, +3 additional AC, +2 Additional Saves. You personally also gain +100 HP.

Percentage HP

• Stalwart and Sacred Defender: remain at 20% Competence
• Nature's Protector: remains at 25% Competence
• Unyielding Sentinel: remains at 20% Insightful
• Aasimar stays typed as Sacred, goes to 5% down from 10%
• Bladeforged gains 5% Quality in a new Tier 4 (2 AP) in their Racial Tree.
• Paladin 18th core gains 10% Sacred HP (this is also in the above notes for clarity)
• Enlightened Spirit level 20 capstone stays at 20% Sacred
• Occult Slayer t5 Bond of Destruction gains 10% Quality
• Renegade Mastermaker goes to 10% Quality down from 20% racial
• Upgraded Zombie in t5 Palemaster goes to 10% Profane
• Shintao t5 gains 10% Quality in meditation of war earth stance (up from 3% untyped)
• Falconry t3 goes to 5% Quality (already 5% just adds a channel)
• Dwarf goes from 4% stacking to 5% Quality
• Warpriest core 4 (level 12) gets 10% Quality

Thoughts? First impressions? Complaints about the removal of Reprisal? We're very much hoping that these changes make building a tank more of an exciting experience, and look forward to seeing what you all can come up with!

Known Issues

• N/A

A big suggestion I have and have had it for awhile is change the Dwarf tree around a little bit. Mainly the Throw Your Weight Around enhancement. As it currently reads: "You may use your Constitution modifier to determine the damage you deal with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, greataxes and throwing axes. (or picks etc)". Make the change to Constitution modifier to damage and to hit...!

~Dimz