There is no Bait and Switch in DDO, let me explain.

[dragondragondragon]

This game is too complicated for that. Yes it does happen in a lot of MMO's, just the way it is. For this particular game I find it highly unlikely. I agree with Lynnabel I don't think they have meetings where they discuss the latest bait and switch strategy to milk the masses, that just seems weird considering the complexity of this game. So I play Mechwarrior Online, MWO. They have in the past released mechs with superior hardpoint locations, quirks, etc., only to nerf them weeks or months later. One could argue that Piranha Games is using a bait and switch tactic. That is entirely possible. They do not communicate with anyone on their forums hardly at all. That, it seems, reinforces their bait and switch. SSG communicates with the player-base exponentially more. You have to stop and realize that a lot of MMO's do use bait and switch to some degree, and that others are just trying to balance their mistakes, whatever they may be. With that being said, I don't think Inquisitives should be nerfed, nor should sorcerers, or that one build or that other build, unless it is exploitive. They have to read through literally millions of lines of code to try and fix this stuff, and gather tons of data, it's not super easy.
So this brings me to the champion, one above all. Someone who claims that their Necro wizard has more Negative energy DPS than a sorcerer. Let the games begin.

Meet me in the tavern because that is where we spend all of our time, talking to the bartender. It's good that we have that line of sight to the bartender so we can order a drink. You know, the taverns are so full of people (thousands of players), like most of the server is in the tavern, right? Yea exactly, and on the airship also, so many people on the airship. Like hundreds if not thousands of people on the airship, but at least they got that "Line of Sight" so they can talk to the banker, oh man where would we be without it!!!!! (line of sight)

[kelavas]

This game is too complicated for that. Yes it does happen in a lot of MMO's, just the way it is. For this particular game I find it highly unlikely. I agree with Lynnabel I don't think they have meetings where they discuss the latest bait and switch strategy to milk the masses, that just seems weird considering the complexity of this game. So I play Mechwarrior Online, MWO. They have in the past released mechs with superior hardpoint locations, quirks, etc., only to nerf them weeks or months later. One could argue that Piranha Games is using a bait and switch tactic. That is entirely possible. They do not communicate with anyone on their forums hardly at all. That, it seems, reinforces their bait and switch. SSG communicates with the player-base exponentially more. You have to stop and realize that a lot of MMO's do use bait and switch to some degree, and that others are just trying to balance their mistakes, whatever they may be. With that being said, I don't think Inquisitives should be nerfed, nor should sorcerers, or that one build or that other build, unless it is exploitive. They have to read through literally millions of lines of code to try and fix this stuff, and gather tons of data, it's not super easy.
So this brings me to the champion, one above all. Someone who claims that their Necro wizard has more Negative energy DPS than a sorcerer. Let the games begin.

Meet me in the tavern because that is where we spend all of our time, talking to the bartender. It's good that we have that line of sight to the bartender so we can order a drink. You know, the taverns are so full of people (thousands of players), like most of the server is in the tavern, right? Yea exactly, and on the airship also, so many people on the airship. Like hundreds if not thousands of people on the airship, but at least they got that "Line of Sight" so they can talk to the banker, oh man where would we be without it!!!!! (line of sight)

I agree/argue with your points that this isn't a bait and switch. It happens all the time. Like with other previous classes it was useful for an amount of time then it was nerfed. Technically it isn't a bait and switch, but most players feel the exact opposite because something they enjoyed is being taken away without notice because the developers felt it was an unbalance. It is, and all classes have been. They don't take time in Lammania or give enough time for players to test or develop builds in Lammania before determining a nerf. With that being said, they have proposed seeking changes to inquisitives way before they decided to nerf them, it just took a while to get to the point.

I am here to argue your points. Inquisitives have the ability to solo/"duo" reaper 10, given that they need the help of a bard to self-heal. They made Doom Reapers to stop the ability to solo, and inquisitives have the ability to destroy them, and fast. Sorcerers only gain their power from ED. I just think that Meteor Swarm needs to be nerfed or removed because four meteors do just as much damage as one Thunderstroke but in an AoE like effect. I've seen the massive destruction of Sorcerers in Epics, and it's disgusting. With that being said, about your Necro Wizard, nifty -udu

I've done multiple runs, data collections, and various tests. Even using The Screamshatter. I have the ability to solo any kind of reaper, especially with Nerve Venom, that's the absolutely most overpowered ability for inquisitives since you have the ability/chance to shoot up to 6 bolts/fire. I do not agree with this playstyle needing to be overpowered, but do like the idea of it being versatile for all classes.

With that being said, can I have my monk back? I want my 2.5[W] and +40MP back. Thanks.
Or maybe revert the wolf changes? I liked that one the most.

[kmoustakas]

This game is too complicated for that. Yes it does happen in a lot of MMO's, just the way it is. For this particular game I find it highly unlikely. I agree with Lynnabel I don't think they have meetings where they discuss the latest bait and switch strategy to milk the masses, that just seems weird considering the complexity of this game. So I play Mechwarrior Online, MWO. They have in the past released mechs with superior hardpoint locations, quirks, etc., only to nerf them weeks or months later. One could argue that Piranha Games is using a bait and switch tactic. That is entirely possible. They do not communicate with anyone on their forums hardly at all. That, it seems, reinforces their bait and switch. SSG communicates with the player-base exponentially more. You have to stop and realize that a lot of MMO's do use bait and switch to some degree, and that others are just trying to balance their mistakes, whatever they may be. With that being said, I don't think Inquisitives should be nerfed, nor should sorcerers, or that one build or that other build, unless it is exploitive. They have to read through literally millions of lines of code to try and fix this stuff, and gather tons of data, it's not super easy.
So this brings me to the champion, one above all. Someone who claims that their Necro wizard has more Negative energy DPS than a sorcerer. Let the games begin.

Meet me in the tavern because that is where we spend all of our time, talking to the bartender. It's good that we have that line of sight to the bartender so we can order a drink. You know, the taverns are so full of people (thousands of players), like most of the server is in the tavern, right? Yea exactly, and on the airship also, so many people on the airship. Like hundreds if not thousands of people on the airship, but at least they got that "Line of Sight" so they can talk to the banker, oh man where would we be without it!!!!! (line of sight)

I agree. Yet I know they will nerf inquisitors the moment I find the storm shard, so I think you have a few months to go. Which is why I can't find the SoS shard, they nerfed that already

[HungarianRhapsody]

This game is too complicated for that. Yes it does happen in a lot of MMO's, just the way it is. For this particular game I find it highly unlikely. I agree with Lynnabel I don't think they have meetings where they discuss the latest bait and switch strategy to milk the masses, that just seems weird considering the complexity of this game.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this.

I know for sure that Lynnabel and the rest don't have meetings where they discuss the latest nefarious plot to bait and switch to grab up our money with deceptive practices. It isn't a nefarious plot.

BUT...

It's also super obvious that SSG knows that people will be more likely to buy a "hot new class/race/tree/whatever" if it performs at least as well as current top tier builds, so they work to make sure that the new stuff is cool and exciting and high-powered. Not *too* high powered, but they also don't want it to come in as a "meh" option like melee currently feels like in today's environment. People will buy "WOW!" but they aren't as likely to buy "meh".

Zero of the last half dozen new class/race/tree/whatever have come in underpowered and needing a boost to get them up to where they should be. More than half of them have needed nerfs to stop them from overperforming so much. (And they're still solid even after the nerfs.)

It isn't a nefarious plot, but it is certainly a theme for SSG development to make sure that the new stuff they make is AWESOME! (which is good - we want stuff that's awesome, right?), but that also means that they're going to keep making things that are overpowered and then have to nerf them. And then the new thing that they're selling is the NEW AWESOME SHINY!!! and that's the top of the pack... again.

It isn't a nefarious bait and switch. But it is a development cycle that pushes the player base to buy and run the new thing by making it overpowered and continually de-powering the previous things. That isn't evil. That isn't "bait and switch". But it is their current business model even if they don't acknowledge it to themselves.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I agree. Yet I know they will nerf inquisitors the moment I find the storm shard, so I think you have a few months to go. Which is why I can't find the SoS shard, they nerfed that already

There's an Inquisitive nerf coming to Llama today.

[Fivetigers33]

For this particular game I find it highly unlikely.

A few years ago when Warlock was still in it's OP form, they put it on sale in the store for a discount price and then 1-2 weeks later they nerfed it. The nerf was in such close proximity to the sale that the devs had to know about the upcoming nerf while selling warlock to people at a discounted price. What exactly would you call that?

[Chai]

There is a pattern of buff+nerf and release+nerf in DDO that far exceeds mere coincidence.

The part that people debate is the intentions.

I dont believe there is a meeting every week/month/time period where company employees twirl the handlebar ends of their proverbial mustaches while they plot and scheme on how to milk big spenders. It is already well known what big spenders will/wont purchase anyhow, so this would not be needed anywhere in the industry. All the marketing team needs to understand is how the general knowledge of what can/cant be sold to players fits the context of the game they work for.

No one at MechWarrior (a game we see often cited on these forums) has these meetings internally either. Companies send employees to attend seminars hosted by some of the pioneers who made hundreds of millions in microtrans, then apply that knowledge to the context of their own game. (I'm not saying SSG attends these same seminars, I'm merely outlining how that knowlede is passed down, and its not by weekly meetings in some villain lair cackling gleefully at the new method of p2w that was just schemed up).

Many of these have been recorded and a cursory search of social media will pull them up.

I've always found arguments of "someone else does this by worse degree than the entity we are currently discussing so that makes what we are currently discussing OK" to be mere excuses, as anyone who understands how the timeline of this all works, understands that supporting a lower degree of it is precisely what begets the degree being ramped up over time. It shows that the strategy is working.

This serves to change the feedback culture as it results in monetizing items that are being asked for, which were not provided previously due to reasons other than lacking resources to make it happen. It also results in situations where we see monetized classes released at the top of the power ladder. We've seen many occasions where the pendulum swings too far in the other direction in this game, but can anyone point out an occurrence where monetized character power was released when UNDERperforming? Even Harper, the one example which was not released top of the meta, had abilities the meta player community felt were a "must have" at the time for optimization purposes.

Its not some unproven conspiracy to say that if youre going to monetize character power through AP lines and classes, that making sure that situations where the pendulum swings too far in a direction, to make sure that directionality points to the top of the meta, and not the bottom of the meta.

[DrowsworD]

Where is the explanation? What I see is each of you admitting that there is a bait-and-switch; sell something high powered and then switching it to something less than what was paid for.

On many occasions when a new class or tree is previewed in Lamm, people discuss how powerful it is, sometimes how OP it is. The devs are smart people. They know that what they are creating is over the top. And, that at some point, they will have to nerf those abilities to make the class/tree less than what it was. They KNOW this.

If there was not a bait-and-switch plan in place the devs would make changes before the class/tree was made live, based on what they and the players see in Lamm.

It is a conscionable effort by the devs to sell something that they KNOW will have the stats reduced later. Bait-And-Switch

I have yet to purchase any class or tree that is marketed this way. I will wait for the inevitable nerf and then buy at a reduced price, if at all. I still don't own Warlock or Inquisitive and have no plans to purchase them even if on sale.

[myliftkk_v2]

There is a pattern of buff+nerf and release+nerf in DDO that far exceeds mere coincidence.

The part that people debate is the intentions.

I dont believe there is a meeting every week/month/time period where company employees twirl the handlebar ends of their proverbial mustaches while they plot and scheme on how to milk big spenders. It is already well known what big spenders will/wont purchase anyhow, so this would not be needed anywhere in the industry. All the marketing team needs to understand is how the general knowledge of what can/cant be sold to players fits the context of the game they work for.

No one at MechWarrior (a game we see often cited on these forums) has these meetings internally either. Companies send employees to attend seminars hosted by some of the pioneers who made hundreds of millions in microtrans, then apply that knowledge to the context of their own game. (I'm not saying SSG attends these same seminars, I'm merely outlining how that knowlede is passed down, and its not by weekly meetings in some villain lair cackling gleefully at the new method of p2w that was just schemed up).

Many of these have been recorded and a cursory search of social media will pull them up.

I've always found arguments of "someone else does this by worse degree than the entity we are currently discussing so that makes what we are currently discussing OK" to be mere excuses, as anyone who understands how the timeline of this all works, understands that supporting a lower degree of it is precisely what begets the degree being ramped up over time. It shows that the strategy is working.

This serves to change the feedback culture as it results in monetizing items that are being asked for, which were not provided previously due to reasons other than lacking resources to make it happen. It also results in situations where we see monetized classes released at the top of the power ladder. We've seen many occasions where the pendulum swings too far in the other direction in this game, but can anyone point out an occurrence where monetized character power was released when UNDERperforming? Even Harper, the one example which was not released top of the meta, had abilities the meta player community felt were a "must have" at the time for optimization purposes.

Its not some unproven conspiracy to say that if youre going to monetize character power through AP lines and classes, that making sure that situations where the pendulum swings too far in a direction, to make sure that directionality points to the top of the meta, and not the bottom of the meta.

The devs continually refuse to admit there is a pattern, whatever the causation.

[Xyfiel]

The devs continually refuse to admit there is a pattern, whatever the causation.

Because there isn't a pattern. How many nerfs have the following received?
Vistani
Aasimar
Scourge
Tiefling
Scoundrel
Falconry

Only one that comes to mind is Vistani power swap was changed to daggers only.


Some things are released under powered - protection tree, original EK tree, Primal Avatar, etc. Even the original divine sphere was reworked when Crusader came out.
Some are balanced and need few to no changes.
Some are over powered and need nerfed later - Warlock, Inquisitive.

People who want to believe there is a pattern ignore all the other things that don't fit.

[lyrecono]

The devs continually refuse to admit there is a pattern, whatever the causation.

The devs have feignted ignorance before......



Here is a small indication that shows ssg only cares about cash grabs:
They have known for years their engine benifits ranged/casting over melee, they also know more players enjoy playing that way, hence they cater to them more, more caster and ranged options then pure melee ones, also, store mana pots, yet no (reaper capable) healing pots.
Thus it makes sence to do all the bait and switches in order to keep selling the latest cookie cutter tools without having to reballance the content all the time.

I guess not enough people still play real melees ( no gishes or splashes), forr ssg to consider selling some massively broken 2hf universal tree.
Then again, those 2-3 players won't have to be dissapointed 3 montsh down the line.

[TedSandyman]

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this.

BUT...

It isn't a nefarious bait and switch. But it is a development cycle that pushes the player base to buy and run the new thing by making it overpowered and continually de-powering the previous things. That isn't evil. That isn't "bait and switch". But it is their current business model even if they don't acknowledge it to themselves.

I agree with you that it isn't intentional. But I would argue that there really isn't any other way for it to work.

The new thing has to be more powerful. If they introduce anything under-powered, not only will they get tons of grief over it, no one will buy it and all of that work will have been for nothing.

If they introduce something that is about the same, people will go "meh, not worth farming new gear for".

If they make something that knocks down walls and stomps mobs into the dirt, however, then everyone talks about it and everyone tries it and they make money. People buy the thing in question. People start gearing the thing in question. People start buying removers, xp pots, feat changes, and reincarnation stones to try out new aspects. It really is the only thing that makes sense from a business perspective.

(And as an aside, before any of you get your tail feathers bent out of shape about my use of everyone above, understand that in many, MANY cases, (I would say most cases) everyone does not actually mean each and every person without exception. The expression "on everyone's lips" is often used and means A LOT of people are talking about something, and it definitely does NOT mean every single human being on the planet is talking about the thing. I would put forth that if you read a post that says everyone and you are getting angry just thinking how much it doesn't apply to you, it is probably, almost definitely, being used in the same mode as "on everyone's lips" to mean most people and you should probably just not bother posting about it. I could talk on this for hours. Thank you for listening.)

The only curious and weird part to this process to me is the people who think this new, hot thing will be allowed to stay this overpowered. It is going to be nerfed so just understand that when you start buying into it. It is in the best interest of the game that the new "it" eventually be brought in line with the other aspects of the game. And especially don't wait a couple of months before you try it because it will be nerfed soon after you purchase said update.

It makes sense to leave inquisitive out there for a bit. But it also makes sense to reel it in at some point. But it will not be reeled in so far as to make it the worst thing in the game, that wouldn't make sense either.

So, inevitably, some older classes/play options are going to fall out of favor over time if being the most powerful is all you care about. A good solution would be to add new classes, races, enhancements and then next, do a pass on the oldest class, race, enhancement, to keep things balanced.

Of course this will only lead to more power creep and more bored ubers.

[Chai]

Because there isn't a pattern. How many nerfs have the following received?
Vistani
Aasimar
Scourge
Tiefling
Scoundrel
Falconry

Only one that comes to mind is Vistani power swap was changed to daggers only.


Some things are released under powered - protection tree, original EK tree, Primal Avatar, etc. Even the original divine sphere was reworked when Crusader came out.
Some are balanced and need few to no changes.
Some are over powered and need nerfed later - Warlock, Inquisitive.

People who want to believe there is a pattern ignore all the other things that don't fit.

Just because the pattern doesnt include every single thing does not mean there is not a pattern.

EDs are sold as a whole, not separately.

[Chai]

The only curious and weird part to this process to me is the people who think this new, hot thing will be allowed to stay this overpowered. It is going to be nerfed so just understand that when you start buying into it. It is in the best interest of the game that the new "it" eventually be brought in line with the other aspects of the game. And especially don't wait a couple of months before you try it because it will be nerfed soon after you purchase said update.

It makes sense to leave inquisitive out there for a bit. But it also makes sense to reel it in at some point. But it will not be reeled in so far as to make it the worst thing in the game, that wouldn't make sense either.

Get in early and use often.

Where have we heard that before?

[Xyfiel]

Just because the pattern doesnt include every single thing does not mean there is not a pattern.

Just because you twist the words around to push a narrative doesn't make it true either.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Just because you twist the words around to push a narrative doesn't make it true either.

I would believe the "there's no bait and switch" narrative more if there were any examples of things being introduced too weak and needing a power up. Of the options listed, even the ones that didn't need a nerf to fix game balance are still on the high end of the power curve. The only option that is "merely" good is Scoundrel. And that's just because it forces you to take a level in Bard and misses out on some of the overpowered Tiefling tree.

[Chai]

Just because you twist the words around to push a narrative doesn't make it true either.

Everything you pointed out was released on the upper end of the META. The fact that it didnt receive a nerf doesnt mean it doesnt fit the pattern.

There are no words being twisted here, whatsoever. I'm not pushing a narrative. I'm observing a pattern, and citing the observance. Others agree, and also cite the pattern (with no input or help from myself).

You pointed out some EDs. Does anyone objectively believe people were going to choose to NOT buy EDs, because a few of them were less powerful than the ones which were OP, did get nerfed eventually, and did carry the sales?

Id like to see some examples of items released near the bottom of the meta. When the pendulum swings too far in a direction, thats one thing, but when that direction is always or almost always the same direction thats not simply coincidence.

Q: Where are the oopsie daisys on the other side?

A: They dont exist.

[Xyfiel]

Everything you pointed out was released on the upper end of the META. The fact that it didnt receive a nerf doesnt mean it doesnt fit the pattern.

There are no words being twisted here, whatsoever. I'm not pushing a narrative. I'm observing a pattern, and citing the observance. Others agree, and also cite the pattern (with no input or help from myself).

You pointed out some EDs. Does anyone objectively believe people were going to choose to NOT buy EDs, because a few of them were less powerful than the ones which were OP, did get nerfed eventually, and did carry the sales?

Id like to see some examples of items released near the bottom of the meta. When the pendulum swings too far in a direction, thats one thing, but when that direction is always or almost always the same direction thats not simply coincidence.

Q: Where are the oopsie daisys on the other side?

A: They dont exist.

Simple explanation...due to power creep newer or reworked things are better. The older something is the higher chance it is behind the curve. Deep Gnome, Dragonborn, Aasimar, and Tiefling are all newer and comparable to each other more so than older races. Although there was some racial changes a few years ago that put some up to par like Half Orc, some need varying levels of help. Make Drow great again!

I am not ignoring your response on EDs. While they have some relevance I agree they aren't similar enough to continue discussing them.

Edit: I just did a capstone/tier V falconry build and it is underpowered. Sure the other stuff is great for a lot of builds but the top sucks. So that is at least one example if only partial.

[Chai]

Simple explanation...due to power creep newer or reworked things are better. The older something is the higher chance it is behind the curve. Deep Gnome, Dragonborn, Aasimar, and Tiefling are all newer and comparable to each other more so than older races. Although there was some racial changes a few years ago that put some up to par like Half Orc, some need varying levels of help. Make Drow great again!

I am not ignoring your response on EDs. While they have some relevance I agree they aren't similar enough to continue discussing them.

Edit: I just did a capstone/tier V falconry build and it is underpowered. Sure the other stuff is great for a lot of builds but the top sucks. So that is at least one example if only partial.

The falconry thing is the same/similar as Harper. It enables character power by allowing stat consolidation. While not as blatant as ramping DPS up to 11, it is still an example of creating demand by allowing already powerful things to exist on the same platform as other powerful things.

Being able to have max/near max DC and DPS on the same platform using the same stat is more powerful than having to choose between one or the other. While this didnt result in people demanding a falconry nerf, it did help result in people demanding a monk nerf.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Because there isn't a pattern. How many nerfs have the following received?
Vistani
Aasimar
Scourge
Tiefling
Scoundrel
Falconry

Only one that comes to mind is Vistani power swap was changed to daggers only.


Some things are released under powered - protection tree, original EK tree, Primal Avatar, etc. Even the original divine sphere was reworked when Crusader came out.
Some are balanced and need few to no changes.
Some are over powered and need nerfed later - Warlock, Inquisitive.

People who want to believe there is a pattern ignore all the other things that don't fit.

lol. Add Aasimar to the list of overpowered recent additions getting a nerf.