Paladin.... Worthless?

[TehLexinator]

Background: Came back to DDO 3 weeks ago after a 2+ year hiatus.

I just hit 23 with my Paladin by running adventures with a good group.

They carried me entirely. I didn't feel like I contributed at all. No one even needed heals as everything was kited (crossbows).

My damage was pitiful in comparison. The group was supportive, but I felt useless.

Are Paladins just bad right now? What happened to saving throws and such? How can others take less damage than me? I have over 50 Charisma, meaning I have awesome saving throws. Also is sword and board Paladin no longer viable? I recall a while back, Paladins were the best thanks you could get. Now I get killed in a few hits.

Anyone have build advice for a Drow Paladin?
I feel bad having a mob melt before I can even hit it. Not that it matters, since I take half my HP on damage when it hits me... What happened in the last 2-3 years? What am I missing?

Simply put, this is a lot less fun than I remember. I was actually told that tanks and healers weren't really needed anymore until endgame raids. Is that true? Devastating if correct, since I have a 21 Fighter, 23 Cleric, and 19 FS...

[Mofus]

If you are doing reaper, and mid to high skull reaper, then yes a paladin may not be viable. Most melee toons are having a hard time in mid to high skull reaper. If you are getting killed in hard or elite all the time, then it may just be a gear issue or you may need to look at your destiny or enhancements. Don't get too discouraged, take a look at some of the builds on the forums and do some tweaking. If all else fails, build the meta of the month inquisitive and join in on the fun.

[Clemeit]

everything was kited (crossbows).

Inquisitive (the new ranged-type tree) is currently the meta. It offers nearly unparalleled damage output at distance. Essentially pushing out more damage than most melees can muster while staying far away from mobs, therefore nearly eliminating the chance of every getting hit.

However, don't look to the devs for balancing. It's been stated by a few devs on multiple occasions that inquisitive is perfectly balanced and nothing is wrong. For those of us that actually play the game, however, it's clear that this isn't the case.

Are Paladins just bad right now?

Yes, and they have been for a while. They're sort of the class nobody wants to bring up because they're terrible and the devs have shown very little interest in changing it. Their trees haven't been updated in something like 5 years.

What happened to saving throws and such? How can others take less damage than me?

PRR/MRR. Essentially failing saves isn't as much of an issue anymore so long as you have a high enough PRR/MRR to mitigate the damage.

Also is sword and board Paladin no longer viable? I recall a while back, Paladins were the best thanks you could get. Now I get killed in a few hits.

No, unfortunately I don't believe it is. A real shame, truly, because I remember a time where S&B was my favorite style. Basically any character that needs to be in melee range of mobs is going to have a rough time in any seriously challenging content. Getting hit is a real issue these days, and the best way to stay safe is play a caster or an inquisitive and stay far away, or build for dodge and high PRR/AC - essentially a tank (which can be a very confusing topic for a returning player because the best tanks have weird splashes like artificer and wizard to maximize defenses).

I was actually told that tanks and healers weren't really needed anymore until endgame raids. Is that true?

This is true-ish. If you're running mid to high reaper content (r6+) then you'll probably want a healer around. You'll also probably want one or two for raids. Other than that... no, sorry. Again, truly a bummer because I've had a dedicated healer since '09 and mileage has certainly varied over the years. These days I don't play a healer unless a raid group specifically needs one or if a party is running r8+ content.

I do hope you find a build that you're happy with. I understand how depressing it can be to feel like you're not contributing, but it's not all doom and gloom! Perhaps try an inquisitive or, if you're not willing to spend the money to buy it, a caster. Wizards and Sorcerers are both in a pretty good spot right now.

Best luck, and welcome back!

For further readings, see the following.
When are melee going to be removed from game?
Melee is bad?

Disclaimer: This post applies mainly to reaper difficulty because, let's be real, most people run at least r1.

[TehLexinator]

Snip

Snip.

Thank you both, and thanks for this explanation. I am going to try Inquisitive myself.

Super upset at how useless my Fighter and Paladin feel. Barb feels bad as well. Oh well.

So what's the best class for Inquisitive? What would get me the most damage and survivability?

[Clemeit]

Thank you both, and thanks for this explanation. I am going to try Inquisitive myself.

Super upset at how useless my Fighter and Paladin feel. Barb feels bad as well. Oh well.

So what's the best class for Inquisitive? What would get me the most damage and survivability?

Everyone is going to have their own answer, but I prefer rogue as the base class with 6 ranger splashed for Sniper Shot. If you were looking for simplicity, there's certainly nothing wrong with pure rogue. Inquisitive is powerful enough by itself without serious investment into the perfect split.

As for survivability, that's a result of staying as far from mobs as possible, utilizing Pin/Otto's Whistler/Nerve Venom from Shiradi (Inquisitive should absolutely be running in Shiradi with very few exceptions), and Uncanny Dodge/Meld Into Darkness.

[Fenrisulven7]

Thank you both, and thanks for this explanation. I am going to try Inquisitive myself.

Before you invest too much time and energy, bear in mind that Inquis is causing balance issues and will likely get the nerf hammer, as all FOMs eventually do.

I heard the devs are looking at a pass on Two-Handed Fighting, so maybe melees will swing back around.

Meantime, I'm staying on my Barb and Palis so I can learn the skills needed to run them when (if) they get ungimped.

[janave]

I just leveled a mostly Paladin KotC thru heroic, I had to drop down from r3 streak and occasional r4 to elite/r1 runs compared to xbow/arcanes... while soloing at least. Same character actually with some BiS melee gear.


This is what I would change for Knight of the Chalice: Roughly would fix both leveling and epic viability.

• Scale all Cores => Light damage with 200% melee power.
• Extend to Core 4 => +1 Competence Critical Multiplier with ALL Weapons you wield
• Revamp Holy Sword => Add +1W multiplier; and Good Bypass Flag, +1 Sacred Critical Multiplier with Favored Weapons only. ( ...Except Crossbows, thats silly anyway)
• Merge Censure Outsiders into a T4 => freeing a T5 => new T5 +1 Competence Critical Multiplier with weapons on rolls 19-20.
• T4 Passion: Divine Sacrifice => On Vorpal regenerate a Smite Evil use.
• Divine Sacrifice=> +2 Critical Multiplier if crits.
• Empowered Smite =>5 MP + 1/2 of your Religious Lore feats to Melee Power.
• Move Sealed Life into a T4 => Another T5 freed up. Perfect Smite => Add double your Charisma to damage with smites.
• Capstone: Your vorpal hits against undead do an additional 1000 damage.

[lyrecono]

Melee in general is in a bad place and get's worse in reaper.

due to melee not growing in dps like other play styles and getting screwed over in the gear schemes, they fell behind.

Add in the growing damage and hp by mobs, the safer way to pay became ranged, either by bows/x-bows or spell casting, so ddo now resembles a fps now.

either adept or turn around and go back to what ever you were doing before you returned to ddo.

The devs have been informed about their bad decisions but refuse to remedy their mistakes,, so there is no hope for a positive change.

[J-2]

They are far from worthless. It sounds like a bad pick for your play style.

They are perfect for a casual solo non-vip player, not for groups or reaper.
Slow and smart gameplay. Lots of doorway fighting, splitting mobs where possible.

They are great at melee and survival. They suck against traps and magic users.
Champions in general can be rough.

Most quests I can do around level. Some quests I have to elite over level and some i can go severely under level.
Ive not yet managed solo study in sable on elite at L30. Too many champ magic users.
Inversely, I start to solo toee on epic normal at level 20. Will be there later today.
I can solo shroud as long as fire elemental isnt in part 2. Hes too fast back to the center.


I go 2hf pure pally. power attack, cleaves, 2hf enhancements plus the heals and lay on hands for mid-battle restoration.

KOTC tree is more cleaves, strength, charisma, evil effects.
Holy retribution is my T5 mainstay.

Some sacred defender for sacred defense and defensive perks.

In epic I phase in ruin and greater ruin along with epic destinies.

Cannith crafted gearsets redone every (4) levels, fully augmented. Every little bit counts.

Its fun for me, but admittedly pathetic in comparison to other classes.
I like my build. It will win no dps medals. There is no endgame.

Its great for my play style. Thats the trick.

[vryxnr]

It really depends. Though to truly find worth, I find you really have to go all in on tank mode. It can be done pure pally, or with a pally split (like 15 pally, 4 fighter, 1 wizard). Of course, I play mostly at cap, so my opinions are biased towards that.

I have a tank that is that split. Pally lets me quicken rez dead allies (no scrolls) and spot heal with Lay on Hands as needed. To be fair, most of my value is in raids... but if your strong and played well you can help out in regular reaper runs at cap as well. Recently did some R8+ where we had no CC caster, so instead I was 'crowd control' with my intimidate. Everything swarmed around me and would ignore the DPS as they killed everything. Was recently in a group of 4 inquisitive one healer (focused purely on me) and me as the tank. The inquisitives quickly learned that it is much more effective (both in safety and quest completion speed) to let me go in first, grab aggro, and then pew-pew away to victory (no need to kite to try and stay alive/at distance, they could just park and blast things away with full sneak attack bonuses as their targets were always focused on me instead of them).

However, that kind of tank playstyle is very much not for everyone. I get 0 kills. I rarely do any damage at all. But I allow everyone else to survive and DPS at full potential without having to worry about their own hides. I take hits so you don't have to.

...but yes, when comparing pally to casters and ranged characters... especially for being well rounded 'I can do it all, DPS and take hits', yeah, Pally does lack in comparison. Sure they start off with decent defenses with mediocre dps and some self heals/sustainability... but everything else can eventually get it all and then some too, while pally - despite the start - really struggles to keep up.

[C-Dog]

WB to the game!

Paladin.... Worthless?
...
My damage was pitiful in comparison...

Are Paladins just bad right now?..

You knew (or should have known) when you chose Paladin back then that they had lower DPS. Pali's are about survivability, not challenging the lead in the kill count. Not now, not years ago.

As for taking damage, those "inquisitives" are probably on their 20th life, so they've got both some PL's under their belts and some finely honed gear to help w/ that.

You just dusted off your old VW and are complaining about the 2020 models outperforming you. Not the same animal, never was expected to be.

I have an old Pali that is slowling limping toward TR - he's durable, but not a meatgrinder, that's just the nature of that class. You have to make a decision - write off getting to 30 this life and just TR now, or accept that you'll be getting towed thru quests a lot during Epics.

Your call.

[Drecas]

They are far from worthless. It sounds like a bad pick for your play style.

They are perfect for a casual solo non-vip player, not for groups or reaper.
Slow and smart gameplay. Lots of doorway fighting, splitting mobs where possible.

emphasis mine

That's just saying that paladins are outcasts and that they suck, with extra steps.

[fatherpirate]

In a nut shell, if your doing reapers...

You need a specialized build, but that is a specialized part of the game.

If you have not done reapers before, and the rest of the party has...
you are...what we used to call a torch holder. You don't fight much or you die.
WHY ? easy.....they have a BUNCH of reaper level skills designed specifically for
Reaper...you don't. Let that sink in.

Side note, if you later want to try Hardcore Server + Reapers ... it is even a MORE
specialized build.

If your just doing Hard/elite ...Pally S+B are fine. Check your gear.
Also note, Reaper level skills only work in Reaper levels.

Last Item - if your in a reaper level, your self heal is reduced to almost non-functional
and the damage you do is reduced (by design)

The only things you see in regular Reaper groups is just what works, Hvy Range attack is the
usual because if you melee reapers OR top tier Champion, they will 1 or 2 shot you.

welcome back by the way.
(I solo mostly so I don't even bother with Reapers (self heals are worthless))

[J-2]

emphasis mine

That's just saying that paladins are outcasts and that they suck, with extra steps.

I dont think you read a whole lot. They dont suck. they are not outcasts.
They simply are key to a different strategy.

They cannot keep up with a group zerging to the exit on epic elite.
They are not played to their benefit on reaper with

I just finished my temple run on epic normal at level 20.
3 hours to get 300,000 xp. Full run. Solo. No death. Not even close.

slayer 10 219
slayer 25 658
nar azmath 8777
slayer 50 1427
slayer 100 3292
skara 2195
slayer 200 5486
alazorun 16458
slag 4389
slayer 400 21946
slayer 750 65838
bladebreaker 16458
frogkeeper 13167
will weatons balls 10973
fin 128927
total 300210

There is nothing suck about that.
Its doubtful you could do that without your group.

[janave]

I dont think you read a whole lot. They dont suck. they are not outcasts.
They simply are key to a different strategy.
.

That is all good, but most players in Epics aim for 10 000 per minute on the low end, R1 is doubtlessly The progression mode at the moment. Depending on the instance in takes me 70-150% more time on a DPS THF melee to complete content (if I can complete at all) compared to Arcane, and about +50-100% compared to Insert Ranged meta DPS (mostly some flavor of xbows).


... I would not say i can change strategy to largely improve any of those times, in fact Arcanes and Ranged have a 100 times better toolkit for extending strategy beyond what they already do, kite-perch and DPS, at some point melee will have to go face to face with the mobs that can very quickly melt away 2-3khps over 150 PRR and a bunch of other layers.

[Drecas]

They cannot keep up with a group.

So you admit that they're thrash. Good.

[J-2]

They are not trash.
They are not for groups.
They are not for Reaper.

They most certainly have their niche.
They fill it quite well.
They are not worthless.

[HastyPudding]

I've seen a couple 18 paladin/1 fighter/1 fvs and 19 paladin/1 fvs charisma-based PDK tanks in high reaper quests that seem to do very well.

[JOTMON]

Background: Came back to DDO 3 weeks ago after a 2+ year hiatus.

I just hit 23 with my Paladin by running adventures with a good group.

They carried me entirely. I didn't feel like I contributed at all. No one even needed heals as everything was kited (crossbows).

My damage was pitiful in comparison. The group was supportive, but I felt useless.

Are Paladins just bad right now? What happened to saving throws and such? How can others take less damage than me? I have over 50 Charisma, meaning I have awesome saving throws. Also is sword and board Paladin no longer viable? I recall a while back, Paladins were the best thanks you could get. Now I get killed in a few hits.

Anyone have build advice for a Drow Paladin?
I feel bad having a mob melt before I can even hit it. Not that it matters, since I take half my HP on damage when it hits me... What happened in the last 2-3 years? What am I missing?

Simply put, this is a lot less fun than I remember. I was actually told that tanks and healers weren't really needed anymore until endgame raids. Is that true? Devastating if correct, since I have a 21 Fighter, 23 Cleric, and 19 FS...

You have been gone for 2 years.. what do you expect.
The game has changed a lot in 2 years.

1. pretty much everything you have equipped is completely outdated and worthless, farm Sharn for new stuff.
2. Sentience and filigree sets..
3. TR rinse/repeat many past lives, Heroic, Racual, Epic, Iconic
4. Reaper points..

the difference between then and now is that you have missed 2 years of grinding for goodies...

[C-Dog]

That is all good, but most players in Epics aim for 10 000 per minute on the low end...

Oh my fu... erm, I mean, by the sweet Saint Gygax!

So, you've done a census and figured this out, can back this up with data? Or did you mean "Most players in the small group/guild/circle that I run with...", and think that "you" represent most players?

Most players do what they want to do. Most players do not do exactly what everyone else does. "Most players" is a hard thing to generalize. And most players would agree that's a good thing.