LAG and Server POPULATION a rational view

[Brutuscass]

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I am fully aware that I might get some flak on this one, though why some would feel so grievously offend here is a deeper question.


First as to Server Population, thankfully DDOracle is now back producing logging traffic data which can be found here,
http://www.ddoracle.com/Traffic.html
it is unstated if these are the complete figures or just partial, given that DDO is now also available on Steam. I would imagine that they are complete, but at the very least they will not be an over representation of login activity.


This is the latest quarterly graph provided by them, you can also find monthly, weekly and daily charts there as well as one which covers the HardCore season





That is all I have or need to really say on population. Draw your own logical conclusions here.


NOW on to the more contentious subject of LAG, the beast that comes up and bites ur butt when all you wanna do is ave fun.


The first thing to understand is that LAG is no mythical Beast, it exists, but it is not just one beast lurking in DDO and the pet of some mischievous member of the SSG team out to get you, and I am talking about you, yes you, you know who I am talking about
Ok a little more serious here, LAG is an issue for many an online game not just SSG products, I have looked through many a forum of other MMO's and the thing that sets them apart from DDO is the general lack of whining and the open acceptance that it is not always or ever all of the games making! And they have an analytical approach to the problem.
Though things at the game end of the server can and do cause LAG. The effect may in fact be small or in some cases negligible. If you are sitting in front of your device in New Jersey or a few miles down the road and your toon is Lagged out frozen to the spot while some like me is sitting in front of their device across the Atlantic is running around happily killing stuff then maybe you should be looking at something else to blame than the game.
The LAG beast is a hydra, one or even two head may not be a great problem (though sometimes one big head can be a real pain in the butt) effects within the entire system can add up and multiply the end result.


I will just point people to where to look mainly here as it has all already been written.


Nvidia states.
OneWord, Many Causes

Right off the bat, the word "lag" itself is a problem. Why? Because it's a general term and not particularly descriptive. Sure, we all know that lag refers to some kind of slowdown or reduced responsiveness during a game, but we need to get more specific. There are multiple causes of lag, so let's cover the symptoms and solutions for each one of them.
Found here.
https://www.geforce.com/whats-new/gu...of-lag-guide#1


Looking at how an online game responds to the Lag issue and though not all of this will concern players of DDO it is well worth looking at.

LOL states, which is League of Legends and not me insanely giggling


It is important to understand what the problem actually is, and the reasons behind it.Therefore, before we get into the potential fixes and workarounds,let us first address what exactly League of Legends lag is.
Lag in LoL comes in many forms. This includes the FPS loss, delay, rubberbanding and the worst possible one, League of Legends stuttering. Now, unlike high ping related issues which are usually linked to your internet connection, lag is a little more complex, as not only is it caused by the internet connection, but also the issues within your gaming-setup. This includes unoptimized settings or even inadequate hardware requirements. You can just see down below, just how much this affects the community.
https://www.killping.com/blog/fixing...-gamers-guide/


this is worth considering. From CoD
https://support.activision.com/artic...Modern-Warfare


There are loads of Discussions out there on the Subject of LAG all explaining just how multifaceted it is, it is not a simple subject. The very fact that online games rely on the state of the hardware of the internet (often travelling thought sections over 30 years old) compounds it.


Simple things like wifi connections, using a TV as a monitor without out switching it to game mode can have an effect, even the double confirmation request used by Win10 can bug things out.


My final point is simply this, maybe before firing off posts complaining about the game lagging and then being surprised when others reply that it is not a problem that they are experiencing, consider that there might just be a more pragmatic solutions out there.





Happy Hols to you all

Edit: added Hardcore data for ease of access



Addendum

It seems that I was wrong about the lag part being the more contentious subject population seems to have caused some concerns, I posted this as a note of interest and made no claims but was drawn into a discussion over the matter.

As I clearly stated any reports should include a clear Method, that would included any the name of any software used, the results produced by that software to be included in either screen shots or Links, A video link to a you tube upload showing the method in use.

The claims made shown must be realistic, e.g. Stating that 8928 Data points were collect over 744 while that is clearly impossible due to down time is a tell that something is a miss!
You would only get the number of data points obtained while the software was running in game, if the servers were down during that time the programme would not be able to obtain any data, so the numbers for both data points and hours would be lower!
By claiming to have more data points than was possible to obtain should be a clue that something does not ring true.

PLEASE WHEN EVER READING CLAIMS ON THE WEB

ALWAYS USE CRITICAL THINKING!

Avoid Fairy Tales or just click here

[acemonkey]

My final point is simply this, maybe before firing off posts complaining about the game lagging and then being surprised when others reply that it is not a problem that they are experiencing, there might just be a more pragmatic solutions out there.

You're right about that, we can complain on this forum and get deafening silence from SSG and victim blaming from you, or we can do the more pragmatic thing and go with a competitor who is still willing to spend money on the necessary server resources.

Problem with blaming grafx cards, connections, user's computers, etc... they work fine with other games...

[Brutuscass]

You're right about that, we can complain on this forum and get deafening silence from SSG and victim blaming from you, or we can do the more pragmatic thing and go with a competitor who is still willing to spend money on the necessary server resources.

Problem with blaming grafx cards, connections, user's computers, etc... they work fine with other games...

LOL " victim blaming from you" why the persecution complex?

Seriously why is that I am not getting the lag? I mean if it is the game then I should also be a "Victim" as you put it! think logically.

the term victim (a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action) seems a rather irrational over statement.

Thx for your response and the boost

[Brutuscass]

This thread is meant as a reference for those interested in server population data and as an aid for those who may be experiencing lag while others are not, it is not a total denial of the existence of lag, I had thought that would have been clear for anyone who had read it.

[Letrii]

You're right about that, we can complain on this forum and get deafening silence from SSG and victim blaming from you, or we can do the more pragmatic thing and go with a competitor who is still willing to spend money on the necessary server resources.

Problem with blaming grafx cards, connections, user's computers, etc... they work fine with other games...

In the past Turbine had to deal with ISP to change routing of traffic to fix lag. Maybe that is something they need to look into again.

[Brutuscass]

In the past Turbine had to deal with ISP to change routing of traffic to fix lag. Maybe that is something they need to look into again.

Yup the ISP can be a large contributor to the issue, which can explain why some suffer more than others.

[acemonkey]

I am fully aware that I might get some flak on this one, though why some would feel so grievously offend here is a deeper question.
<snip>
If you are sitting in front of your device in New Jersey or a few miles down the road and your toon is Lagged out frozen to the spot while some like me is sitting in front of their device across the Atlantic is running around happily killing stuff then maybe you should be looking at something else to blame than the game.

LOL " victim blaming from you" why the persecution complex?

Seriously why is that I am not getting the lag? I mean if it is the game then I should also be a "Victim" as you put it! think logically.

the term victim ([FONT=arial]a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action) seems a rather irrational over statement.

Because this is the only conclusion you drew about lag in the entire wall of text, which I did read. You don't get lag so clearly it's not SSG, great, but if I and many others can play other online games smooth and lag free and DDO is the only one with severe lag, it doesn't matter what kind of victim blaming you do. It doesn't matter how great and shiny your gameplay experience is.

Is your argument that as long as some customers are happy there can't be a real problem with a service? That's what you seem to be saying.

[lyrecono]

how good of a source of data are these log ins when turbine (and now ssg) muddied the water with daily dice?

edit: when i still played i had 5 more play accounts to fill parties and a few more for banking, a lot of people do this to, so when i played and logged in all of them for the daily dice, i generated 10 log ins for 1 player.
and we're not even talking about all the disconnected players logging back in .....

[Brutuscass]

Because this is the only conclusion you drew about lag in the entire wall of text, which I did read. You don't get lag so clearly it's not SSG, great, but if I and many others can play other online games smooth and lag free and DDO is the only one with severe lag, it doesn't matter what kind of victim blaming you do. It doesn't matter how great and shiny your gameplay experience is.

Is your argument that as long as some customers are happy there can't be a real problem with a service? That's what you seem to be saying.

You are clearly irrational in your statements

Firstly you refer to the thread as my argument, when it is in not way and argument, it is a series of facts, most of which are those others who I have linked in!
So in answer to your question, NO!

Secondly you seem to feel the need to take this to personal level with comments such as "victim blaring from you! and 'It doesn't matter how great and shiny your gameplay experience is'

Thirdly it is not I who is drawing conclusion here it is you!

the nearest thing to a conclusion in my thread could be the very statement you quoted in your first response.

My final point is simply this, maybe before firing off posts complaining about the game lagging and then being surprised when others reply that it is not a problem that they are experiencing, there might just be a more pragmatic solutions out there.

NOTE that does not claim to be a conclusion, it clear sates that it is a final point

Note also that it clearly concerns cases where lag is being experienced by some and not others, which if you had taken the time to think would have made you realise just how redundant you following response was.

You're right about that, we can complain on this forum and get deafening silence from SSG and victim blaming from you, or we can do the more pragmatic thing and go with a competitor who is still willing to spend money on the necessary server resources.

Problem with blaming grafx cards, connections, user's computers, etc... they work fine with other games...

For the life of me I fail to understand why you feel the need to quote first part of the thread here?

I am fully aware that I might get some flak on this one, though why some would feel so grievously offend here is a deeper question.

Unless your intention is provide an example of the flax the I thought I might get, however I still fail to see why any rational person would be so grievously offended?
After all lag is not as simple as some people seem to think.

If you are sitting in front of your device in New Jersey or a few miles down the road and your toon is Lagged out frozen to the spot while some like me is sitting in front of their device across the Atlantic is running around happily killing stuff then maybe you should be looking at something else to blame than the game.

As for second part which you quoted, it no more than an example of reality, as pointed out by Letrii even the ISP can have an effect. as can many other factors. you seem to be unable you understand that if the server is not lagging for everyone then the fault must be somewhere else (simple fault finding method), that is not to say that at times the Server does not lag at times, just that when it does it will effect everyone not just some!

To point it simply, even if lag is effecting game play there are things that get be looked into which may reduce the lag, this I know from my own experience, because I took to time to do so!

Anyway thx again for your response and the boost

And once again I wish Happy Hols, A wish I have expressed to all in the post which you fully read.

[Brutuscass]

how good of a source of data are these log ins when turbine (and now ssg) muddied the water with daily dice?

edit: when i still played i had 5 more play accounts to fill parties and a few more for banking, a lot of people do this to, so when i played and logged in all of them for the daily dice, i generated 10 log ins for 1 player.
and we're not even talking about all the disconnected players logging back in .....

They are all up to date, by muddied the water I take it you mean peps like me logging on to maybe another server to load up with whatever I can get before the 5th

I suppose some people are logging on to all the servers for the rolls there as well but there can't be that many of us doing it, I mean I guess the reason to log in for most peps is just to play the game.

It is true that the data only shows the number of log ins per day, but add that up over all the severs. and as I stated it is unclear if this is just from Steam data, or desk top logs as well.
if you go the site, http://www.ddoracle.com/Traffic.html you can see the other break downs

I understand the doubt, but can there really be that many people who just log on to roll dice and not play the game, a lot of people have limited enough time without adding to it

[Letrii]

Does it only count once character is actually loaded? I have to load client 3-4 times to actually get into game and also randomly crash when zoning.

[Komradkillingmachine]

If you don't understand how:
1) content lag works - Thunderholme being the worst offender among others,
2) server degradation lag works requiring multiple restarts per week, which also causes significant delay when interacting with anything in public instances,
3) poorly coded phasing and teleporting mobs cause instance locking lag until all party is dead,
4) multiple character swaps cause memory leaks and performance drop and FPS stutter until a fresh client reboot.

Maybe you don't really know anything and should keep your yapper shut for a while, instead of spamming the mobos with useless threads like "Hurr-durr, must be your internet connection" or "It's definitely your PC, dude!".

Do you mind?

[Brutuscass]

Does it only count once character is actually loaded? I have to load client 3-4 times to actually get into game and also randomly crash when zoning.

Hmm let me pass you over to this guy

[lyrecono]

They are all up to date, by muddied the water I take it you mean peps like me logging on to maybe another server to load up with whatever I can get before the 5th

I suppose some people are logging on to all the servers for the rolls there as well but there can't be that many of us doing it, I mean I guess the reason to log in for most peps is just to play the game.

It is true that the data only shows the number of log ins per day, but add that up over all the severs. and as I stated it is unclear if this is just from Steam data, or desk top logs as well.
if you go the site, http://www.ddoracle.com/Traffic.html you can see the other break downs

I understand the doubt, but can there really be that many people who just log on to roll dice and not play the game, a lot of people have limited enough time without adding to it

you misunderstood
i logged into 10 different accounts on a daily basis but usually only my main 2 accounts played with other people, thus i created log ins that are not well represented in your chart, as did many other players.

by the way, i'm pretty sure 80% of the hardcore players logged into their main server at least once a week for the gold roll, likely more then once a week, so even if they didn't play on their usual mainm server, they did create log in date for that server.

[Gniewomir]

how good of a source of data are these log ins when turbine (and now ssg) muddied the water with daily dice?

edit: when i still played i had 5 more play accounts to fill parties and a few more for banking, a lot of people do this to, so when i played and logged in all of them for the daily dice, i generated 10 log ins for 1 player.
and we're not even talking about all the disconnected players logging back in .....

Gj Sir, that exactly why this data cannot be source of any information. Also i'd like to point out, that it's not precised if those logins are logins of different people, cause i can also imagine counting if someone close the game client and log in again. For example im jumping a lot between servers, so i can do even 20-30 logins per day.

Personally, out of curiosity, i looked into steam charts. And compared it to 3 years older mmmorpg, knight online. Now, average amount of different players per month: around 250 for ddo, never less than 1250 for knight online. And id like to mention that knight is 3 years on steam, ddo 7.

Of course fanboys will say i cannot compare two different games. Of course fanboys will say that almost noone plays ddo using steam. Of course fanboys will say many thing. The sad, undeniable fact is that older, uglier, more than 2 times younger on steam game is doing 5 times better than ddo.

My biased opinion: ddo is doing extremly bad if we speak about population.

[Brutuscass]

Gj Sir, that exactly why this data cannot be source of any information. Also i'd like to point out, that it's not precised if those logins are logins of different people, cause i can also imagine counting if someone close the game client and log in again. For example im jumping a lot between servers, so i can do even 20-30 logins per day.

Personally, out of curiosity, i looked into steam charts. And compared it to 3 years older mmmorpg, knight online. Now, average amount of different players per month: around 250 for ddo, never less than 1250 for knight online. And id like to mention that knight is 3 years on steam, ddo 7.

Of course fanboys will say i cannot compare two different games. Of course fanboys will say that almost noone plays ddo using steam. Of course fanboys will say many thing. The sad, undeniable fact is that older, uglier, more than 2 times younger on steam game is doing 5 times better than ddo.

My biased opinion: ddo is doing extremly bad if we speak about population.

welcome to the forum always good to have new voices, even if they already disgruntled after only joining this month.

A happy hols to you

[Fenrisulven7]

This thread is meant as a reference for those interested in server population data and as an aid for those who may be experiencing lag while others are not, it is not a total denial of the existence of lag, I had thought that would have been clear for anyone who had read it.

Hey, thanks for the time and energy you took putting this together. Don't let the Karen's get under your skin.

Interesting stats, I think logging traffic is a useful metric, and better than nothing at all.

I'm curious about that Orien spike on day 27. Did it swap out with Cannith (which shows a significant dip afterwards)

[Fenrisulven7]

how good of a source of data are these log ins when turbine (and now ssg) muddied the water with daily dice?

Check out the first graph, with Cannith tracking about 3000 more daily logs per day than the other servers (Orien is an outlier, ignore it for this argument)

First off, you would expect the Newbie Default server to have more UNIQUE logins, because these are new players without mules, few alts (if any), and less awareness of daily dice minmaxing.

Now notice how it's peaks and valleys track closely with the other servers below it. That tells me it's a useful metric.

[myliftkk_v2]

They are all up to date, by muddied the water I take it you mean peps like me logging on to maybe another server to load up with whatever I can get before the 5th

I suppose some people are logging on to all the servers for the rolls there as well but there can't be that many of us doing it, I mean I guess the reason to log in for most peps is just to play the game.

It is true that the data only shows the number of log ins per day, but add that up over all the severs. and as I stated it is unclear if this is just from Steam data, or desk top logs as well.
if you go the site, http://www.ddoracle.com/Traffic.html you can see the other break downs

I understand the doubt, but can there really be that many people who just log on to roll dice and not play the game, a lot of people have limited enough time without adding to it

Take the traffic and divide by say 3-5. DDO has quite good consistency in that it crashes every X zones now. Enough to almost set one's clock by it. If Gland says 4000 logins, I'd divide by 3-6, and say the server population has a max range of 650 - 1200 unique logins once we control for re-attempts.

As far as server population related to "lag", I'd stub that out as irrelevant in the equation on what causes the processing delays. It's true that the data transmission itself has a cost associated, but the lion's share of all costs are the processing at the server end. Assuming a client is really just a display screen, plus a stream of inputs to a centralized processor, unless the display itself is heavyweight (unlikely for DDO given it's age versus newer GPUs), then your delay problem is in most cases, directly related to what is happening on the server.

Individually anyone may or may not have lag, but that's irrelevant to whether the highest likelihood of delays is server side. It always is, and it always will be. The more features that get added means additional, not just processing, but sequencing of processing, and as gaming engines have virtually nothing approaching a complete coverage testing harness, one would be hard pressed to identify the specific sequence of inputs that generate outsized delays except in very egregious circumstances. It's also not necessarily the case that delays are related to weak server processing capabilities (or server mal-investment). One can write code to bring any server of any type to it's knees, and in fact the processing instructions to the machine are far more important in terms of execution loads than the hardware itself. Stronger hardware often masks inefficient development strategies, or lack of investment in paying down technical debt incurred by constant updates without subsequent refactoring of data processing for new efficiencies.

The rational response to lag vis a vis server population is that it's an irrelevant variable when discussing as long in the tooth gaming engine platform as DDO and with as little population on a rolling basis.

[Brutuscass]

Take the traffic and divide by say 3-5. DDO has quite good consistency in that it crashes every X zones now. Enough to almost set one's clock by it. If Gland says 4000 logins, I'd divide by 3-6, and say the server population has a max range of 650 - 1200 unique logins once we control for re-attempts.

As far as server population related to "lag", I'd stub that out as irrelevant in the equation on what causes the processing delays. It's true that the data transmission itself has a cost associated, but the lion's share of all costs are the processing at the server end. Assuming a client is really just a display screen, plus a stream of inputs to a centralized processor, unless the display itself is heavyweight (unlikely for DDO given it's age versus newer GPUs), then your delay problem is in most cases, directly related to what is happening on the server.

Individually anyone may or may not have lag, but that's irrelevant to whether the highest likelihood of delays is server side. It always is, and it always will be. The more features that get added means additional, not just processing, but sequencing of processing, and as gaming engines have virtually nothing approaching a complete coverage testing harness, one would be hard pressed to identify the specific sequence of inputs that generate outsized delays except in very egregious circumstances. It's also not necessarily the case that delays are related to weak server processing capabilities (or server mal-investment). One can write code to bring any server of any type to it's knees, and in fact the processing instructions to the machine are far more important in terms of execution loads than the hardware itself. Stronger hardware often masks inefficient development strategies, or lack of investment in paying down technical debt incurred by constant updates without subsequent refactoring of data processing for new efficiencies.

The rational response to lag vis a vis server population is that it's an irrelevant variable when discussing as long in the tooth gaming engine platform as DDO and with as little population on a rolling basis.

Thank you for taking the time to respond here, now I am not going to challenge you by questioning your programming knowledge, I have never made claim to being an expert, hell I wouldn't even know how to reconfigure the oracle account/pass combination via a Jenkins configuration interface.


However my post was simply made for the purpose of


1,addressing the on going question of population by simply providing access to the closest source that can be found out there atm, rather than the generalise subjective opinion that is inflames the forum now and again. It is not perfect and I make no claim to it being so.


2,To offer suggestions which may help reduces the effects of lag that some may be experiencing, (Am I wrong in trying to do so?)
Iam NOT stating that lag is never present in the game, though I am stating that I used to have a much greater issue with “Lag” than I do now, which is almost non existent now after I looked into possible contributing factors.


The two issues were not meant by me as being thought of as one causing the other. I intended them as two separate issues and at no point in my post suggested a causal link.


As you seem to be in the know when it comes to the field of development and coding in respect to servers and lag, may I trouble you with a question?


Is the cause of Lag always one source, if not can multiple causes of lag increase the overall effect and compound it?
And if that is the case then would it be best practise to try to reduce or remove any extra lag causing effects if possible, or in your professional opinion is it truly a case that the patient is dead and there is nothing to be done.


Are all the links I provided talking rubbish when it comes the subject of lag?
I am just asking here as a pint of beer is riding on this from my friend James.


One last question, what is the given value of X for you?
And I truly do not wish to upset anyone here but I play a lot, generally a few hours a day and though I have had to force a shut down due to zoning issues I find it reasonable rare.
Again I am not claiming to be an expert on anything just talking of my personal experience.