Power attack and Melee Power feats

[Kutalp]

Hello. Good day to you.

I was thinking on heroic feats and noting down the changes in time.

Random brainstorming about static damage and Weapon power and Power attack. Not Critical performance nor Precision. Main subject is also not Kensei Weapon power enhancements.


The subject would be Half Orc . 2 rogue/12 Fighter/6 Barbarian; anyhow thinking on going on Fighter leaving Barb at 1. [The only down side is the lack of enhancement swap and T5 swap when bored...(shrugs)]...Back to main subject.



Considering the weapon damage 1d10 (Dwarven axe) +5; Would swapping Power attack feat require 10 weapon power or 8, 6...

Not running Power attack further drops the static damage but how much does that effect in general power calculations ?

[Greater Two handed fighting +6 WP, Weapon focus slash+ Bludgeon 4WP, Weapon specialisation slash+ bludgeon 4WP, Greater weapon specialisation slash 2WP] +2 damage from specialisation slash.


16 WP +2 Slash damage + 5 Power attack damage. At this point is it better to drop Power attack and load more weapon power feats (preferably two shield feats which give +6 more weapon power is the priority)


Just a reminder, main subject is not Critical feats, top dps or 'Conan what is best in life ?' here. Just melee power from feats vs Power attack and their worth before Epics and without Kensei enhancements or Epic desitinies.



Thanks for the input and your valuable time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uX0wjl9PzM

[GeoffWatson]

Power Attack gives +5 damage.
A MP feat gives 2 MP, which is a 2% increase.
If your average damage before MP is 250 or more (just count damage that is boosted by MP) the MP is better, otherwise Power Attack is better.

[HungarianRhapsody]

MP feats also don’t lock out Precision. That can make a difference too.

[Kutalp]

Thank you very much GeoffWatson and HungarianRhapsody.

[C-Dog]

MP feats also don’t lock out Precision. That can make a difference too.

Some builds have room for both, which can be toggled. More damage for mobs, more Fort bypass for bosses etc.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Some builds have room for both, which can be toggled. More damage for mobs, more Fort bypass for bosses etc.

At higher reaper levels I find I get more bang out of the increase in hit chance than I would get from +5 damage with all those stupid glancing blows. YMMV if you’re able to get your primary to hit stat significantly higher than I can.

[janave]

There are a couple of enhancements Scaled by Melee Power above 100%. However I think the case of PA is more about the Cleaves ... I would not give up for measly amount of MP.

[Kinerd]

Power Attack gives +5 damage.
A MP feat gives 2 MP, which is a 2% increase.
If your average damage before MP is 250 or more (just count damage that is boosted by MP) the MP is better, otherwise Power Attack is better.

only if you start with no melee power bonuses, though

in this case the character is starting with at least 16 melee power, so the increase is 118/116 = 1.7%, so the break even point with 5 damage is 290

but we should also point out that as a horc barb splash getting Power Attack feat opens the possibility to another +3 damage for 4 barb AP (no brainer imo) and +3 for 13 horc AP (that's a little more of a stretch especially since it escalates the to-hit penalty) if none spent yet in Ravager or horc

[Ultinoob]

They are all intertwined and then there is single target damage vs aoe damage - glancing blows.

The formula is something like:
base damage * crits * melee power * doublestrike
for single target damage

If the base damage is 100 and crits is 34/20 and doublestrike is 25 forexample, this totals to 212.5.
So a real 2% increase in melee power would net you 4.5 more damage, but you have to use the formula Kinerd used.

You can also try the online dps calculator in my signature if you think that makes it easier.

[Kutalp]

Thank you friends.

[Kutalp]

1) Does Power attack still give -5 to hit as it states or is that also changed to -%25 ?

2) Does Spring Attack now give +%25 to hit when moving and attacking ? Is it applied for a few couple of steps or while allways on the move ?



3) If the player had only one choice to pick and improve...

Would boosting Doublestrike chance to +%30 passive , beat +%30 Swing speed chance; combined with BAB

or would

+%30 passive swing speed and BAB beat +%30 passive double strike chance and BAB ?

4) Is Exotic weapon proficiency feat worth its weight or too underpowered now ? (compared to other weapons with Critical threat/multiplier. Is Khopesh the only exception ?)

5) Are Scimitar and Falchion the most economic choice for critical burst weapons, when we consider the amount of feats spent and dumping the named weapon comparison but also when we do not count Swashbuckler or Ravager T5 ?

6) Is a Warhammer (Not named weapons) with Knights training the best overall weapon for both worlds (critical and bludgeoning) now or Light Mace and Swashbuckler ?


7) How about the penalties while moving when rolling for doublehit chance and weapon swing speed and further penalties when the character moves faster ?


Thanks.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_E4Ek8kKnU

[GeoffWatson]

1) Power Attack is -5
2) Spring Attack negates the -4 movement penalty. Any movement.
3) They are the same for most weapons. two-handed weapons would prefer swing speed, as glancing blows are not boosted by doublestrike.
4) Not really. Only if you have a lot of nice Khopeshes already, otherwise get Knight's Training which give Longswords and Battle Axes the same crit as a Khopesh, and there are a lot more named Longswords and Battle Axes.

Other answers later.

[palladin9479]

It's not really Power Attack vs WF Slashing (assuming that' what your going with), as you can have both of those at the same time. It's Power Attack vs Precision because only one can be active at once, and a feat that's not active is dead weight. Precision's 25% fort bypass is super power with all the 100% fort monsters we fight, undead, constructions, elementals and such.

[Kutalp]

1) Power Attack is -5
2) Spring Attack negates the -4 movement penalty. Any movement.
3) They are the same for most weapons. two-handed weapons would prefer swing speed, as glancing blows are not boosted by doublestrike.
4) Not really. Only if you have a lot of nice Khopeshes already, otherwise get Knight's Training which give Longswords and Battle Axes the same crit as a Khopesh, and there are a lot more named Longswords and Battle Axes.

Other answers later.

Thanks for the reply.

[Kutalp]

It's not really Power Attack vs WF Slashing (assuming that' what your going with), as you can have both of those at the same time. It's Power Attack vs Precision because only one can be active at once, and a feat that's not active is dead weight. Precision's 25% fort bypass is super power with all the 100% fort monsters we fight, undead, constructions, elementals and such.

True, Precision has some effect on dropping enemy fortification. Anyhow its effect ,even when combined with other enhancements, is doubtfull to me; against constructs, elementals and undead (and similar npcs types).

Originally They were known as monsters that are Immune to critical hits. Then there is this talk it is %100 fortification (similar to Shroud effect).


I usually go Vorpals (If possible Vorpal + Flametouched/Silver + Bane) for anything that is living and Holy/Adamant for anything that is not possible to crit. If I ever go Elemental it is usually Acid and Cold. (Blueshine/Everbright/Glass for Ooze but usually Flametouched thrower is fine enough)


My hybrid ranged/melee characters allways picked up Precision instead of Power attack since the bonus is applied to both styles.


[The Horc above started as Kensei/Horc/Ravager; turned in to an odd Stalward/Vanguard with (some ) Vistani and (full) Horc cores... and pretty much fun]

[janave]

Many Red/purple named bosses come with some fortification, constructs ideally would not have 100%, about 50-75% commonly, undead, elemental, plant would be mostly 100%. When I take favored enemies playing Ranger I always pick these first. At least two champions get fortification buffs ( no idea about the amount ). I would risk to assume that reapers would get some fortification too, they are meant to add challenge after all .

The 25% fort bypass in heroics is fairly large, in later epics the 5% to hit is just too good to pass up, while fort bypass is much easier to get.

[Kutalp]

Many Red/purple named bosses come with some fortification, constructs ideally would not have 100%, about 50-75% commonly, undead, elemental, plant would be mostly 100%. When I take favored enemies playing Ranger I always pick these first. At least two champions get fortification buffs ( no idea about the amount ). I would risk to assume that reapers would get some fortification too, they are meant to add challenge after all .

The 25% fort bypass in heroics is fairly large, in later epics the 5% to hit is just too good to pass up, while fort bypass is much easier to get.

Indeed. It is the description against performance on live game....



Easy calculation. If it is not a direct devaluation of fortification amount. Example: Not %75-%25; but instead -%12.5 for an npc which has %50 fort instead of %100 it becomes much worse than what it writes down at the description.

The lower the amount of fortification the npc has got, the worse bonus the Precision feat gives. Anyhow I allways knew Undead and similar npcs are Immune to critical (which means the amount of fortificaiton can not be dropped) so it would not mean anything running Feats and Enhancements that bypass fortification. [Note: May be Assasin and Mechanic core/enhancements are the only exceptions]

That would be similar for +%5 to hit when npc AC , dodge and blurry is calculated.


About Power attack feat I would prefer a scaling amount, 'tail' ing the melee/ranged character level aswell. As the character gets further training at a specific 'warrior' class the feat would improve and scale much better.


This is comparable to Precision, Dodge, Save feats, Skill feats and further. The comparable amount of levels taken for each class would define how stronger the basic feats would scale with.


Say, a revamp for basic (heroic feats that would scale up to lvl 30) When we took a heroic feat the class we chose would define how good the feat would give extra bonus every level.


Skill feats would scale the best with Rogue.

Melee and Ranged feats would scale better with Fighter. Skills would scale worse than a Ranger. Toughness feats would scale better than anyother class but not Barbarian.

Melee and throwing feats would scale top with Barbarian. Not as good for Ranged feats. Skill feats would scale better than a Fighter. Toughness feats would get the best bonus every Barb level.

Ranged feats would scale top with Ranger while melee feats would scale worse than a Fighter. Much worse than a Barbarian. Meanwhile skill feats would scale much better than a fighter and Barbarian. Toughness feats would scale better than anyother class but not fighter. Not even near to a Barb scale.


There would be comparable scaling values for each caster class aswell.


I really wish developers consider a change to heroic feats and classes this way, in the future.

[GeoffWatson]

Anyhow I allways knew Undead and similar npcs are Immune to critical (which means the amount of fortificaiton can not be dropped) so it would not mean anything running Feats and Enhancements that bypass fortification. [Note: May be Assasin and Mechanic core/enhancements are the only exceptions]

This is wrong.
The vast majority of undead and constructs have 100% fortification, which can be reduced in many ways so they can be critted.

[Kutalp]

This is wrong.
The vast majority of undead and constructs have 100% fortification, which can be reduced in many ways so they can be critted.

This is pretty bad view actually when we also consider the heavy oppression by burst casting and crazed crossbow era.




Even less options through melee gameplay.




For the sake of bringing the original roleplay competence and breaking down the mountaining walls of horrible dullness.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VsdKesdaKs



Thank you.