Was excited to come back..but the wall is real

[nokowi]

So now the truth comes out. You don't need all those PLs to be viable in endgame content, people want them out of a desire to "collect them all." Which is a fine motivation if you're into that thing, but don't pretend this is some bar you need to jump over before you can "play the real game." If you want to do endgame raiding instead of TR then stop TRing and play endgame. You'll do fine once you fine tune your build, gear up, improve tactics/skills, etc.


And maybe the grind to scratch that "collect them all" itch is too high. But you need to argue that on it's own merits, not hide behind this front of "I need 100 past lives to be viable!" Though also keep in mind that the reason that grind is so long is to keep these people playing, because once the "collect them all" people finish their collection they stop playing.

When I came back to DDO after about a year off, I found the grouping experience to be really bad.

I had friends that certainly were willing and interested in running with me, but they were always getting tells to run in higher RXP/min groups (over R6), and the timing of the grouping I id have was Australian time zone, which didn't work well being fully employed here in the US.

The "wall" for me was that people that I didn't know that were willing to join my LFM's, which were always successful, found that I could not run them through content as fast as the groups that already had reaper points. People don't hang around long if they are earning 30% less RXP/min.

Being a very skilled player on a somewhat underpowered toon, the grouping options just weren't there.

Every time I have ever had a gap in power, I have always solo'd my way to relevancy before catching up with the crowd. Playing solo melee rogue on reaper without the latest gear and 20 reaper points is like licking a flag pole at -30F. The game play is just plain awful, because the "challenge" of reaper is really just a bunch of mobs all attacking you at the same time, without class tools to deal with that gameplay. It's really lazy design, with trivial ways to deal with - on the correct classes, each playing the same way every encounter because of their forced roles.


The "wall" was real for me with 86 past lives, and unfortunately the game has difficulty providing good play experience if you are not interested in running along in high reaper groups that your toon is not yet built for.

The "wall" was the fact that group play is now about attacking non moving mobs and never taking any risks, which is a sad reflection of the amount of decisions I used to have to make and the risk I used to be able to take, even when the game itself was unchallenging.

Nobody is going to "Get Good" when the gameplay or game experience is not fun, even if they are willing to put in the time and effort.

That's a loss for DDO player population and revenue, and really really bad design.


D&D is about designing an environment to challenge the player abilities. DDO is the opposite, it is about picking player abilities that ignore the environment and provide as little challenge as possible. It is sad how far they have fallen from the intent of a D&D like experience.

[GeneralDiomedes]

swallowing your pride goes a long way to increase your grouping opportunities.

[Chai]

So now the truth comes out. You don't need all those PLs to be viable in endgame content, people want them out of a desire to "collect them all." Which is a fine motivation if you're into that thing, but don't pretend this is some bar you need to jump over before you can "play the real game." If you want to do endgame raiding instead of TR then stop TRing and play endgame. You'll do fine once you fine tune your build, gear up, improve tactics/skills, etc.


And maybe the grind to scratch that "collect them all" itch is too high. But you need to argue that on it's own merits, not hide behind this front of "I need 100 past lives to be viable!" Though also keep in mind that the reason that grind is so long is to keep these people playing, because once the "collect them all" people finish their collection they stop playing.

Its not one or the other. Both are true.
1. The more grind they add the more time consumption (or money consumption, as that is the plan after all) it takes to get caught up
-AND-
2. "All is fine because its not needed" is a weak argument when its understood its being argued in a market audience with a significant percentage of build enthusiasts and character optimizers.

This is before we discuss how the same folks are contradicting themselves time and again by demanding game balance then turn around and justify selling character power straight cash using that very weak argument (game system wise) to justify it. The latter is a logical contradiction to the former. They literally are selling people circumvention of game balance. People buy up all the new levels of character power then complain about power creep on the forums.

Though also keep in mind that the reason that grind is so long is to keep these people playing

No

Though also keep in mind that the reason that grind is so long is to keep these people paying

Yes

[nokowi]

swallowing your pride goes a long way to increase your grouping opportunities.

The game is supposed to be about having fun.

When I see people calling others names and framing that name calling as helping others, and when there is little interest in meeting preferences other than ones own, and when the people here demand their build have everything, we might just have a game that serves and monetizes EGO issues. People could give up their pride and stop telling others to get good, but they don't - because telling others to get good is specifically about boosting ones own ego and trying to be better than others in a video game. If the intent was to preserve challenge, we would have an entirely different reaper experience.

When every request for improvement is framed as something reflective of an individual, and the issue itself is never addressed, I know for sure we have a dysfunctional system for players to raise issues.

[Thrudh]

That's sort of my gut feeling but that's just me. I'm guessing it took me over a year to actually contribute to an elite Shroud run, but that's been a long time ago. It was much longer than six months.

If not ~6 months then what would be a reasonable expectation for a brand new player or even a former player to take an un-geared first life character and contribute meaningfully to high reaper raids? It seems to me that question has to be answered with at least a little consensus before a rational design change proposal could be made. The kind of people I see posting achievements for high reaper raids have forum start dates indicating years of playtime, usually a few years.

We should be talking about high reaper quests.

There are zero LFMs for high reaper RAIDS. Only a few superstar guilds even do high reaper raids.

We're talking about different things here.

[Thrudh]

You guys are telling the guy on the moped to join the Harley Davidson meet up / ride-a-thon simply based on the fact that both bikes are street legal.

Incorrect.

Once you have the gear, the build, and the game knowledge, you are both driving Harley Davidsons.

The guy with all the past-lives has a slightly larger gas tank (and maybe a cooler leather jacket).

[janave]

Incorrect.

Once you have the gear, the build, and the game knowledge, you are both driving Harley Davidsons.

The guy with all the past-lives has a slightly larger gas tank (and maybe a cooler leather jacket).

You mean that 4 builds queued for balancing ? Or going to show us that pure Fighter melee build that isnt abnormally more survivable with a full Aasimar healing + defense tree on top of the no compromise DPS build?

I doubt anyone worth talking to will suggest with a straight face that +70-115 healing amp doesnt matter on a class that doesnt get much... and needs every ounce to stay alive in hard content.

[hit_fido]

We should be talking about high reaper quests.

OP had mentioned raids and didn't seem satisfied with "just" R1-R4, maybe I misinterpreted their goals. I was thinking about how long it took me as a brand new player to be able to genuinely contribute to what was at that time one of the top end raids on the highest difficulty available. I'm pretty casual though, there was a lot of flower sniffing when I started, it's fair that someone who really played hard/more frequently and with great focus on a specific goal should have been faster.

I'm also a mediocre player as far as video game skill and I always run gimp builds but even I have contributed meaningfully in some R5/R6 quests. The only significant advantage I have over a brand new player in those quests from past lives is ~20 prr and 10% ds. A better player that was focused could make most of that up with a more optimized build. A new player could gear out as well or better than my character at 30 just from Sharn loot and fill in holes with loot from Ravenloft.

How long would it take for a new player to run the same quests I am at the same difficulty and meaningfully contribute? One chunk of time to account for leveling from 1-30, and another chunk of time to run sharn/ravenloft until they have a good set of level 29 gear. I know I can get from 1 to 30 without xp pots in ~4 weeks of casual playtime. Grinding sharn and ravenloft for a full set of gear - let's say you can run the RL circuit (12 quests) in three hours. So spend ~3 weeks with 1.5 hours a day playtime, ransacking twice. Sharn is 9 chain quests and 8 shorter cogs. Lets say you can do the chain circuit in three hours and the cogs circuit in two. So five hours, spend ~5 weeks to ransack those chests twice.

Total 4+3+5 weeks or 3 months to go from 1-30 and gear out in the current top end Sharn and Ravenloft loot. If you can play more than a couple hours a day, adjust accordingly - at four hours a day, you're down to six weeks.

Does this basic estimate make sense? Is it reasonable for a new player to hit 30 and get a full set of quest-quality end game gear in six weeks to three months? Is it reasonable that said player could contribute in R5/R6 quests at that point?

[Kaboom2112]

Not a reasonable expectation.

I don't play high reaper raids ever, and I've been here for 13 years without any big breaks.

Most raids I do are EH, and occasionally R1.

I do run R5-R8 quests with consistent success, but high reaper raids is a very high bar. You need a dedicated guild of uber team players for that.

Dream big!

[Kaboom2112]

The solution is simple: Stop being poor.

There is plenty of pay-2-win in DDO that'll allow you to catch up.

Open your wallet.

Or play inquisitive, that requires no PLs or skill to succeed.

[Chai]

Incorrect.

Once you have the gear, the build, and the game knowledge, you are both driving Harley Davidsons.

The guy with all the past-lives has a slightly larger gas tank (and maybe a cooler leather jacket).

Not even close, and we have already been over this.

In a D&D system a +1 on the D20 means 5% increase chance.

Tr ALONE provides
+20% to evocation DC
+20% to conjuration DC
+45% to landing spell pen
+5% to all other DC

This is BEFORE we add in increases to the salient ability score ALSO increasing DC.
TR completionist +2 to ability = +1 DC.
RR completionist +2 to ability = +1 DC.
Racial +2 to attribute = +1 DC

Thats another +15% so now its...
+35% to evocation DC
+35% to conjuration DC
+20% to all other DC
and still 45% to spell pen

No sir, the grinder and p2wers are riding the Harley and the first lifer is riding a moped, even with the gear.

The narrative that the grind isnt needed, when applied to an audience of character optimizers, begins to leak like a sieve. (well actually, it leaked like a sieve a long time ago)

You attempted to refute this once before by showing how this ONLY works when on the d20 meaning someone can choose to run on a difficulty much lower than anything that would challenge them in order be so far into no-fail DC that those plusses dont mean anything, but this is a nonsense statement as folks on the forums who complain about how much grind there is in DDO to optimize characters arent trying to reincarnate this many times to run EH. These arent the folks who metaselect so far down on purpose just to win an argument on the internet.
So the options presented to character optimizers are:
1. Grind for years to get the power
2. p2w
3. Play on a difficulty that doesnt require optimization. (your attempted refutation)

1. is something many RL adults dont have time to do (hence, the complaints)
2. is something some have been willing to do and some havent
3. is unrealistic when applied to an audience of character optimizers and lacks understanding of the portion of the market audience who complains about the grind.

TL;DR: The target audience for EH doesnt complain about grind. You are addressing the wrong audience.

[Anoregon]

Not even close, and we have already been over this.

In a D&D system a +1 on the D20 means 5% increase chance.

Tr ALONE provides
+20% to evocation DC
+20% to conjuration DC
+45% to landing spell pen
+5% to all other DC

This is BEFORE we add in increases to the salient ability score ALSO increasing DC.
TR completionist +2 to ability = +1 DC.
RR completionist +2 to ability = +1 DC.
Racial +2 to attribute = +1 DC

Thats another +15% so now its...
+35% to evocation DC
+35% to conjuration DC
+60% to landing spell pen
+20% to all other DC
and still 45% to spell pen

Those percentages are not really accurate given how the game works in practice, though. Someone with +4 to a spell DC (which you note as 20% on a D20) through TR doesn't actually have a 20% better DC than a first life character once other mods (gear/feats/enhancements/ED) come into play. To use round numbers, if your total DC mod for evocation spells is 100 on a first life char, the +4 from TR becomes 4%, not 20. Still meaningful, but not nearly the 20-35% difference you imply. The gap between first life and TR continues to decrease as continuously stronger gear and other sources of advancement add to character strength.

[janave]

Those percentages are not really accurate given how the game works in practice, though. Someone with +4 to a spell DC (which you note as 20% on a D20) through TR doesn't actually have a 20% better DC than a first life character once other mods (gear/feats/enhancements/ED) come into play. To use round numbers, if your total DC mod for evocation spells is 100 on a first life char, the +4 from TR becomes 4%, not 20. Still meaningful, but not nearly the 20-35% difference you imply. The gap between first life and TR continues to decrease as continuously stronger gear and other sources of advancement add to character strength.

That is not how spell DCs work...

Actually Chai missed a few DC potentials from race.ap spread, on some builds thats another 1-4 for a staggering ~55% difference in measurable gameplay effectiveness.

[Chai]

Those percentages are not really accurate given how the game works in practice, though. Someone with +4 to a spell DC (which you note as 20% on a D20) through TR doesn't actually have a 20% better DC than a first life character once other mods (gear/feats/enhancements/ED) come into play. To use round numbers, if your total DC mod for evocation spells is 100 on a first life char, the +4 from TR becomes 4%, not 20. Still meaningful, but not nearly the 20-35% difference you imply. The gap between first life and TR continues to decrease as continuously stronger gear and other sources of advancement add to character strength.

Thats actually false. The correct answer is: +1 on the d20 means 5% when on the d20 - regardless of what the values have increased to in this power creep laden game.


In your example if the mob needs to make a save and its save is a 90 and you attack it with a 100 DC it needs to roll higher than a 9. (9 is fail, 10 and above is success) so success rate is 55%.

The grinder has a +7 (or 35% better) from my previous post. so their DC is 107.

Mob now needs to roll a 17 to save. 16 and below on the d20 fails.

55% chance of success on mob save when attacked by the first lifer.
20% chance of success on mob save when attacked by the grinder.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same 35%

[Fivetigers33]

Not even close, and we have already been over this.

In a D&D system a +1 on the D20 means 5% increase chance.

Tr ALONE provides
+20% to evocation DC
+20% to conjuration DC
+45% to landing spell pen
+5% to all other DC

This is BEFORE we add in increases to the salient ability score ALSO increasing DC.
TR completionist +2 to ability = +1 DC.
RR completionist +2 to ability = +1 DC.
Racial +2 to attribute = +1 DC

Thats another +15% so now its...
+35% to evocation DC
+35% to conjuration DC
+20% to all other DC
and still 45% to spell pen
.

Nobody is saying that DC casters don't benefit the most from past lives, but they still don't need tons of them to be at near max DCs. What about melee and ranged?

I have a legit first life tempest ranger (0 epic past lives too) that I rolled up to keep at cap for raids. He has a random hodgepodge of tomes, nothing over +5. He is STR based, with a 60-something STR. He can solo R1 sharn as a first life melee. Being an alt focused mainly on Raid DPS, he isn't fully optimized or geared for reaper because that wasn't his purpose. I will concede that soloing R1 sharn is difficult, and sometimes I do die. But if my goal was to play reaper, I could have built/geared him differently and R1-3 would be a breeze. And if you can solo R3, you can contribute in higher reaper groups. No past lives necessary.

All past lives do is give you a bigger margin for error, they aren't the reason someone isn't contributing in a group.

DDO is like anything else in life, different people have different skill levels. Take sports for example. Tons of people enjoy playing sports. Some play with their kids on the weekends, some join rec leagues, some play semi-pro, and very few actually play professionally, but they all love and enjoy their sport. Some people are more naturally gifted, while others spend thousands of hours perfecting their technique. Typically it takes a person with both of those attributes to make it to the professional level.

Unlike professional sports though, DDO has no separation between people playing for fun on the weekend and professional level world class athletes. This whole argument is being based on the assumption that ANYONE that plays DDO should be able to contribute in R10, and that just isn't the case. People get caught up in side issues about pay to win, past lives, etc, and they are forgetting that R10 wasn't designed so that anyone that wants to do it can do it.

I've seen youtube videos of R10 being soloed by Monks, Sorcerers, Bards, melee Rogue, Artificer and Inquisitives. There's probably more, those are just ones I already know about. The amount of viable builds isn't as limited as people make it out to be. Yes some builds are better than others, or are easier to make good than others, but if there's a bard out there soloing R10, there's hope for any class to be effective in R10. People that say you can only play builds x, y, an z in R10 are just as wrong as the people that think having past lives is everything.

This isn't some 'get good' rant, but people do need to realize that everyone isn't at the same skill level. That's just the fact of life. Just because 1 player can solo R10 on a bard, doesn't mean any one that rolls up a bard is going to be able to solo R10. If players feel like they can't contribute at the difficulty they want to play at, they need to take a hard look at their gear and build, because the basics of those 2 things are equally accessible to all DDO players. If you aren't performing the way you'd like to perform at certain difficulties, you should be willing to change things about your build/gear/tactics.

Bard is my favorite class, but I also like doing a lot of DPS. As a player I understand that Bards just don't do the same DPS as a lot of other classes. So first I'll get my gear as perfect as possible. I now have better DPS, but I know it's still well below other builds. At that point, as a player, if I want to do more DPS, my only option is to change my build. All builds have their strengths and weaknesses. Switching out of Bard to do more DPS means I'm giving up other things like buffs, healing, and CC. All of these things are useful though, so when a player complains that "they can't contribute", the way I read that is "I'm not willing to change anything about my playstyle/build/gear so that I can contribute".

In what ways are you not contributing is the question you need to ask yourself. Are you not healing anyone? Are you not CCing anything? Do you have super low DPS? Are you always dead? Each of these has its own first life solution. And yes, as a FIRST LIFE character, your build options will be more limited than someone with lots of past lives. But if you want to be the bard soloing R10, you need to put in some serious time and get all the bells and whistles. If you just want to contribute in high reaper, you have several options that don't require tons of time investment. When players aren't willing to compromise their build/gear/playstyle, that's when threads like this start.

From what I've seen on the forums and in game, players are much quicker to point to lack of past lives as a handicap than actually try to figure out what they can do differently that will yield better results on their part.

[Chai]

Nobody is saying that DC casters don't benefit the most from past lives, but they still don't need tons of them to be at near max DCs. What about melee and ranged?

I have a legit first life tempest ranger (0 epic past lives too) that I rolled up to keep at cap for raids. He has a random hodgepodge of tomes, nothing over +5. He is STR based, with a 60-something STR. He can solo R1 sharn as a first life melee. Being an alt focused mainly on Raid DPS, he isn't fully optimized or geared for reaper because that wasn't his purpose. I will concede that soloing R1 sharn is difficult, and sometimes I do die. But if my goal was to play reaper, I could have built/geared him differently and R1-3 would be a breeze. And if you can solo R3, you can contribute in higher reaper groups. No past lives necessary.

All past lives do is give you a bigger margin for error, they aren't the reason someone isn't contributing in a group.

DDO is like anything else in life, different people have different skill levels. Take sports for example. Tons of people enjoy playing sports. Some play with their kids on the weekends, some join rec leagues, some play semi-pro, and very few actually play professionally, but they all love and enjoy their sport. Some people are more naturally gifted, while others spend thousands of hours perfecting their technique. Typically it takes a person with both of those attributes to make it to the professional level.

Unlike professional sports though, DDO has no separation between people playing for fun on the weekend and professional level world class athletes. This whole argument is being based on the assumption that ANYONE that plays DDO should be able to contribute in R10, and that just isn't the case. People get caught up in side issues about pay to win, past lives, etc, and they are forgetting that R10 wasn't designed so that anyone that wants to do it can do it.

I've seen youtube videos of R10 being soloed by Monks, Sorcerers, Bards, melee Rogue, Artificer and Inquisitives. There's probably more, those are just ones I already know about. The amount of viable builds isn't as limited as people make it out to be. Yes some builds are better than others, or are easier to make good than others, but if there's a bard out there soloing R10, there's hope for any class to be effective in R10. People that say you can only play builds x, y, an z in R10 are just as wrong as the people that think having past lives is everything.

This isn't some 'get good' rant, but people do need to realize that everyone isn't at the same skill level. That's just the fact of life. Just because 1 player can solo R10 on a bard, doesn't mean any one that rolls up a bard is going to be able to solo R10. If players feel like they can't contribute at the difficulty they want to play at, they need to take a hard look at their gear and build, because the basics of those 2 things are equally accessible to all DDO players. If you aren't performing the way you'd like to perform at certain difficulties, you should be willing to change things about your build/gear/tactics.

Bard is my favorite class, but I also like doing a lot of DPS. As a player I understand that Bards just don't do the same DPS as a lot of other classes. So first I'll get my gear as perfect as possible. I now have better DPS, but I know it's still well below other builds. At that point, as a player, if I want to do more DPS, my only option is to change my build. All builds have their strengths and weaknesses. Switching out of Bard to do more DPS means I'm giving up other things like buffs, healing, and CC. All of these things are useful though, so when a player complains that "they can't contribute", the way I read that is "I'm not willing to change anything about my playstyle/build/gear so that I can contribute".

In what ways are you not contributing is the question you need to ask yourself. Are you not healing anyone? Are you not CCing anything? Do you have super low DPS? Are you always dead? Each of these has its own first life solution. And yes, as a FIRST LIFE character, your build options will be more limited than someone with lots of past lives. But if you want to be the bard soloing R10, you need to put in some serious time and get all the bells and whistles. If you just want to contribute in high reaper, you have several options that don't require tons of time investment. When players aren't willing to compromise their build/gear/playstyle, that's when threads like this start.

From what I've seen on the forums and in game, players are much quicker to point to lack of past lives as a handicap than actually try to figure out what they can do differently that will yield better results on their part.

Melee/ranged is right around the same gap for CC dcs that use stunning mod. This is before we discuss DPS mod. Add another 3x monk or 3x ranger for that.
3x fighter lives
1 +2 stat completionist
1 +2 stat racial completionist
1 +2 stat regular racial lives
------------------------------------
+6 or 30%

Id love to discuss another video game where the variance between farmers and casuals 30-35% character power in the same era.

The company would have to actually make 2 different games.....wait....

....this is precisely what DDO did when they couldnt challenge their top tier players any more on Elite. And look - adding more grind (and therefore more power) is making even low-mid reaper the standard now, rather than the setting that challenges the top players and those "finished" with the grind.

The argument that this is somehow justified from a game system perspective is no longer simply leaking like a sieve anymore. Its full on raining sideways.

[Fivetigers33]

+6 or 30%

+6 is nothing. Sometimes my build ends up with 100 dire charge DC, sometimes it ends up with 130. There are plenty of ways to boost DCs in game if a player is willing to gear/build for it. You don't need no fail DCs either. If you are in a full group, and everyone has 60% chance to land CC. Everything will more or less be CCed all the time.

Different enemies have different saves too. Sometimes 100 works just fine, sometimes 120 only works 50%. If everyone had 100% no fail CC/instakill dcs, this game would be too boring.




I do agree with you that Reaper was a poorly implemented system, and that they need to stop with all the past lives/grinds and give newer/returning players a viable catch up option. I just don't believe past lives are as important as a lot of people make them out to be. Though I'm sure the past life grind is a real money maker for them, so everyone chasing lives they think they need are probably keeping the lights on. Maybe I'll just keep my mouth shut instead of trying to help people improve their builds.

[Thrudh]

You mean that 4 builds queued for balancing ? Or going to show us that pure Fighter melee build that isnt abnormally more survivable with a full Aasimar healing + defense tree on top of the no compromise DPS build?

I doubt anyone worth talking to will suggest with a straight face that +70-115 healing amp doesnt matter on a class that doesnt get much... and needs every ounce to stay alive in hard content.

It makes a huge difference... in super hard content. Like I suppose soloing R10 or tanking a raid.

In a group, in the average R4 (or even R8) quest, it makes far less difference. I don't need every last ounce to stay alive. And that's the hardest content one will find on the LFM boards.

If the OP wants to solo R10 on his melee fighter, he'll have to grind and grind and grind.

If he wants to join 99% of LFMs, and contribute strongly to the group, he doesn't need to.

[Thrudh]

Not even close, and we have already been over this.

In a D&D system a +1 on the D20 means 5% increase chance.

Tr ALONE provides
+20% to evocation DC
+20% to conjuration DC
+45% to landing spell pen
+5% to all other DC

blah blah blah

All of this wrong as usual. 120% is equal to 100%. Once your spell pen or DC is high enough, more doesn't help.

This game isn't that hard. Gear and just a few past lives gets you high enough. No one needs 6 past lives for spell pen. If you're building a caster, get 2-3 past lives in wizard for the +1 DC feat, 36 point build, and +4 to +6 spell pen. No one needs the extra spell pen from favored soul. If you're playing and having fun, go ahead and get those over time, but you are speaking falsehoods if you state that one NEEDS that last +3 spell pen to land spells or contribute strongly as a DC caster.

No one has to grind out those 3 favored soul lives to be good. It's just not necessary.

[Chai]

+6 is nothing. Sometimes my build ends up with 100 dire charge DC, sometimes it ends up with 130. There are plenty of ways to boost DCs in game if a player is willing to gear/build for it. You don't need no fail DCs either. If you are in a full group, and everyone has 60% chance to land CC. Everything will more or less be CCed all the time.

Different enemies have different saves too. Sometimes 100 works just fine, sometimes 120 only works 50%. If everyone had 100% no fail CC/instakill dcs, this game would be too boring.

A +6 swing in DC/saves contest is a 30% swing, regardless of how high the power creep has made DCs and saves.

The difference between 50 and 56, 100 and 106, or 150 and 156 is still a 30% chance difference when on the d20.

Whats worse, this position actually attempts to (but fails to) justify power creep by making it sound like the more power creeps upward the less of a difference in chance it is (an incorrect argument).

The correct argument is when power creeps up, the player needs to slog through more and more meaningless DC building before they get to the part that even has meaning. Its a "go all in or dont build for it at all" situation. A new player who doesnt have meta knowledge yet could build through 50 points of DC and still fail 95% of the time (and only succeed 5% due to the 20 always succeeds 1 always fails rule).

I do agree with you that Reaper was a poorly implemented system, and that they need to stop with all the past lives/grinds and give newer/returning players a viable catch up option. I just don't believe past lives are as important as a lot of people make them out to be. Though I'm sure the past life grind is a real money maker for them, so everyone chasing lives they think they need are probably keeping the lights on. Maybe I'll just keep my mouth shut instead of trying to help people improve their builds.

Reaper was made because elite no longer could challenge higher tier players. Its even further eroded to the point where the standard for grouping is low-mid reaper.

Does anyone thing this is where they stop adding grind? Or do we all understand that once this current system starts to slow down in sales of grind mitigation another full on grind system will magically appear.

How many iterations of it needs to occur before people stop justifying it?