let me add that I would not splash monk at your level since getting master of forms would add dps
I would do scion of ethereal not astral...unless you were doing a monk splash with max dodge as a dodge tank
let me add that I would not splash monk at your level since getting master of forms would add dps
I would do scion of ethereal not astral...unless you were doing a monk splash with max dodge as a dodge tank
Wiki dashboard with some useful stealthplay links. LONG LIVE STEALTH!
Proud Knight of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main) and some others typically parked at some level to help guildies and other players
Yeah, I put in the Epics stuff months ago and havent seriously considered it yet. I was focused on the Assassinate DC +4 at the time. +4% doublestrike too. The +4 max dodge won't do me much good unless I get my MDB really high. You're going to tell me that the extra 40+ sneak damage from scion of ethereal is simply too good to pass up. I know, I run with it on my Mechanic. By the time I need to decide, Assassinate may have failed me already and if another +4 won't make much of a difference, it'll be easy to take ethereal. I've heard that a DC over 100 is needed for LE content (mobs with good fort saves), and I'm not sure how feasible it is to get there.
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
My Rogue's Assassinate DC is 105 and that's just not good enough for LE, end-game mobs. I'm sure, with a TON of effort, I could break 110 DC but I have so many alts, my time is too divided elsewhere. I've pretty much given up on my Assassin and am looking to convert her in to something else.
Thanks, that was the feeling that I got from reading forum posts. I have heard of Assassinate DCs around 120, but that must be a highly specialized build. Since this is my first assassin, I will be happy to Assassinate all the way to Legendary sticking to Hard if I have to, but it will be really sad for me when it breaks down in Elite, which will perhaps happen right when I get to Epics. I think I'm right around 56 now, including Measure the Foe. Considering this, the Assassinate +4 from Scion of Astral is almost ridiculously low. It should probably be +10 at a minimum if they want to tempt assassins.
Interestingly, you can see how Scion of Astral became worse as power creep happened, while Scion of Ethereal's Hide-sneak damage is written in a way that benefits from it. I'll bet that a Hide of 150 thus adding 50 sneak damage was not even remotely possible when these were first created.
Character Planner already changed. Thanks to all for the knowledge!
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I was reading a post on LE Sharn, and it was mentioned that, while it was not going well on brute mobs, there are types of mobs with low or no fortitude saves (constructs, etc.) that can still be reliably assassinated at any difficulty. That gives me some hope that I will at least have some use for it everywhere.
EDIT 2: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...SD-reaper-tree
After looking at this, it's pretty clear to me that there is no way I'm going to get to a 105 DC on Assassinate on my first life toon, even if I go to great lengths by gimping dps. My guess is that my Assassinate DC is going to level off in the 70's or the 80's with a concerted effort. Hopefully this is at least in that "works all the time in LH but never in LE" zone.
Last edited by 0ldschool; 11-21-2019 at 12:41 PM.
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
I hit Level 20 a few days ago. It came very quickly, at least for me.
Assassinating through Gianthold was a joy. I took me a LONG time to work through Madstone Crater, but it was a heck of a lot of fun. On another note, Assassinating my way through Devils Details was extremely interesting. Devil's Details is still for my money one of the toughest heroic quests for a solo rogue, with unavoidable large packs of mobs and teleporting orthons, etc. That quest was the bane of my existence about a year ago as I farmed in vain for Divine Artillery. This time, I was in there for well over an hour. For a quest that I thought I knew like the back of my hand, I had a totally new experience sneaking and assassinating through it. I found some nooks and crannies that feel like they were designed in just for me, and I just never would have known about them blasting through with my Mechanic. I snuck by mob packs that I wouldn't have thought I could, and snuck away in situations where I wouldnt have thought it was possible. I think this is my favorite part of playing an Assassin, known quests feel brand new, open up in a whole new way. It's not for everyone, because it is SLOW, so it's a lonely solo life, and the XP/min crowd is never going to embrace it, but it is absolutely for me.
I went ahead and did heroic Sharn saga at Level 20 (even though I hit heroic XP cap earlier than planned) because I really wanted to. For the most part, I kept my hirelings planted somewhere far off so I could do the assassin thing. Stealthing some of the quests was problematic, and I got a bit lazy and got myself killed a few times by triggering massive packs of mobs at once (including a pack of rats in House of Pain, to my great surprise), but for the most part it was again lots of fun.
I may still run heroic Vale and Soul Splitter, but I'm going to start sprinkling in KotB. My next post will likely be about my first attempt to Assassinate in EH/EE content, probably KotB. I just picked up +6 Assassinate DC from SD Tier 1 with my first ED points, so maybe I've got a shot.
Thanks for reading
P.S. Sap is great! As I learn to use it more effectively, it just gets better and better. Since it breaks stealth, it's most useful to me in that moment after I Assassinate when other mobs are onto me and I'm forced out of sneak. I love coming back to the sapped mob, dropping back into stealth, staring at him in a daze as my Assassinate timer tick down to zero, and then taking him out. A "no save" 18 second duration stun effect is an assassin's dream.
Last edited by 0ldschool; 11-26-2019 at 02:39 PM.
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
Devs ought to read your post #25 because that playstyle is not supported in reaper and many quest designs (but not all). There are tons of quests which on EE you can sneak through but often still need to somehow tank and dps a rednamed like Records of the Past or some Sharn ones
Wiki dashboard with some useful stealthplay links. LONG LIVE STEALTH!
Proud Knight of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main) and some others typically parked at some level to help guildies and other players
Yep, that's true and it works. Sometimes I actually use up the full 30 seconds. If I'm still in Sneak, I hate to break stealth just to Sap, but if there is only one mob left and Assassinate is on timer, that's when I use the sneak Sap. It can and has been be a life saver. I find myself counting mobs like I never did with my Mechanic. Assassin requires a lot of awareness of your surroundings and mob count and their movement. It is a much more cerebral DDO than blasting away with my Mechanic. I only wish I had tried it sooner
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
I've been reading and Googling this forum for the better part of 18 months now, mostly about rogues, so I'm well aware of the stealth playstyle concerns and I appreciate the stealth supporters out there who champion the cause. I'm lucky in that I am still pretty new here, so the quests are still fresh enough that I'm OK sticking with Elite, and haven't felt the need to progress into reaper to challenge myself. I would absolutely appreciate more quests geared towards us with stealthy objectives. You are correct of course, I can stealth and assassinate through parts of quests, but there are always going to be DPS moments, most challenging of which is typically the rednames at the end of each quest.
From what I've read here, it sounds like the concern on the dev side with supporting stealth is allowing players to 'inivisi-zerg' through content, thus 'bypassing' the difficulty of the quest and just getting the end reward, XP/loot. We certainly don't want to get to a place in DDO where every player does this to blast through quests, and I appreciate that. But to just drop the hammer on an entire playstyle seems to be a clumsy and cold-hearted solution. It also happens to be one of the most skillful and cerebral playstyles, so it's really a crying shame to stomp on it.
I'm sure that this has been mentioned before, but if you make it undesirable to stealth in terms of XP/min, you will keep all of the non-stealth players from trying to take advantage of the playstyle. You could make the quest take longer by stealth (with longer stealth-able paths), but perhaps that can't be retroactively applied. Maybe better is to just reward less XP for completing quests by stealth. If a quest completed in stealth rewards 10k XP, vs. 30k XP for non-stealth completion and both take the same amount of time, I'm very confident that the vast majority of the player base would choose the non-stealth route. This XP 'nerf' may seem unfair to some, but if it clears the way for the devs to consider actively supporting the stealth playstyle, then it is worth the price to me.
It seems like there is a lot that COULD be done, it is just a matter of the will to make it happen. Thanks for reading
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
Update: I'm throwing out the TA stuff other than Fast Movement. Sweeping Strikes is cool, but it just isn't worth switching to a staff and then back to daggers for only a 4 second trip that doesn't do a lot of damage. Sap (which I am loving) has given me an extra attack to pair with Assassinate and I can't handle another. I'll have to see what the loss of -50% threat reduction does, but it's clear to me that investing the 8 AP in Halfling is AP better spent, which gets me +2 DEX, +2 saves, & +3 MDB and Dodge cap (Nimble Reactions, though I'm seriously considering putting 1 AP aside for Guile). The synergy around DEX is amazing with this toon, and any investment in DEX is worth its weight in gold. I plan to give up a lot of goodies in SD for the DEX enhancements for this very reason.
EDIT: Nimble Reaction and Guile (Halfling T2) have T1 prereqs. Ugh. Work in progress.
Last edited by 0ldschool; 11-27-2019 at 02:14 PM.
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
Thanks. That also could be due to the mobs you are targeting, I've heard that constructs are easy pickings. But if DC of 114 is getting all mobs, then that's a good data point to have, even if I have zero chance of getting to 100 on this life. As I assassinate into EE, I think that there are a number of cases of failed assassinations that are not due to DC checks. Perhaps I am just seeing the randomness of the mob rolls, but it feels like something else is going on. An extremely valuable addition to the combat log would be a line about why the assassination failed. My guess is that less of them are a result of a too low DC than most would assume.
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
You might be just simply missing hitting some mobs with your blades; rolling one, when trying to Assassinate in some cases. Assuming the "vulnerable target" doesn't high armour class and fortification and isn't a pesky Champion combination.
Update from OP:
I'm about to take Level 22. I've been slow due to the holidays. I did take the time to upgrade my Level 15 gear set to a Level 21 that included 4 ML21 pieces from KotB. It's weaved in with the Sharn Family set, 4 CC items, and my trusty Ring of the Stalker. The Lesser Displacement trinket and FoM Boots were calling me! Other KotB pieces are White Hood of Schemes and Ring of Subtle Villainy. It was pretty questionable to leave out the Belt of Subtle Villainy, but I had some very tough decisions to make to work Doublestrike into the set. With the extra DPS it provides, I just can't see leaving it out as an option.
Oh, I assassinated my way through EE KotB fairly successfully with a DC around 70. I had my share of failures for sure, but it was mostly working. Don't get me wrong, I died multiple times, but it was still overall pretty fun. That was before I assembled my ML21 gear set. Now I'm more survivable and it's manageable on Elite, esp. since I've worked my way up in SD with a bunch of extra MP and Meld/Invis etc.
So I was reading the forum yesterday and saw someone complaining about Epic Defensive Fighting, and thought to myself "oh yeah, what was that again?". I was around last year when that hit, with much controversy as I recall, but I was playing my Mechanic (my first toon, this one being my second) so gave it little thought, since it's unusable for ranged. Logged in last night, dragged the EDF feat to a bar, turned it on, and my HP magically went from 592 to 710! It's great to get that kind of boost when your used to less. The zero RP will probably burn me on the few occasions when I need to pull out a throwing dagger, and I'll have to get used to the touch range penalty, but I will happily take the HP, even if the feat is a less than ideal solution to the melee survivability problem.
BTW, my daggers are Drow Dagger/Epic Cursed Shard (which I just got) at the moment, with Liturgy still sprinkled in as well. At Level 22, I'll have to give TF some thought and at Level 23 it's Agony time.
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
nice! Vistani gives ranged power equal to melee power in the tree if you are worried about really needing to toss a dagger but I would not sweat it. I use the Cormyrian ones and might just load a level 24 one with some sentience since the spellplague effect is fun and doubles the number thrown (so I would add some kind of acid effect or somethimg that is 4d6 + 1d6/level, then doubled and then doubled again with rapid throw +100% doublestrike)
Wiki dashboard with some useful stealthplay links. LONG LIVE STEALTH!
Proud Knight of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main) and some others typically parked at some level to help guildies and other players
I'm posting this for the next person searching the forum like me for answers. The TF dagger with Blinding is great! DYWYPI was correct. Chasing blinded mobs is not an issue, and full time sneak attack damage is so worth it, even if it is just one mob per 12 seconds. The no-save "almost always procs" nature of the Blinding Fear is a great choice for any toon with SA damage. Right now, I'm at Level 25 and wielding Agony & TF Tier 1. When I hit Level 26, Epic Assassin's Kiss is waiting for me. It clearly out DPS's the TF dagger, but I am left wondering if there is value in dual wielding daggers each with Improved Deception, or if they don't stack and Blinding is the better choice as another SA proc. Also wondering if there would be value in wearing something like the Leg. Celestial Sapphire Ring (Improved Deception) while wielding a dagger(s) that also have Improved Deception. If they proc independently, this sounds like a really great idea to me
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
I don't think I realized at the time just how much up-time I would have on sneak attack. Between Improved Deception on dagger(s) and/or Blinding, along with Improved Feint (and Shiv) which is still bluffing just fine now at Level 25 (EH not EE), I am starting to believe those 'almost 100% sneak attack up-time' posts that I've been reading. In retrospect, it seems silly that I even thought about anything other than Scion of Ethereal.
I've started to mix in Assassinate with traditional DPS tactics. This was partly to move along quicker, partly due to Assassinate not working 100% of the time, and because this VKF assassin is dealing some serious damage! I find myself drifting away from sneaking/stealth tactics, which I really shouldn't be doing if for no other reason than Measure the Foe. I'm pretty sure that by Level 30, my assassin is going to out-DPS my L30 mechanic.
I'm still using my ML21 gear set, which is ML15 Sharn Part of the Family set along with 4 ML21 KotB named items, my Tier 3 Ring of the Stalker, and 4 ML21 CC items to fill in the gaps. My plan is that this gear gets me to cap, when I switch out to a legendary gear set. I'll have to start planning that asap, either Leg. Part of the Family or Leg. Silent Avenger, we'll see what makes sense. I can't seem to remove the Leg. Shadowhail cloak from my rogue gearsets no matter what I do. My Mechanic is currently using Leg. Wallwatch set along with the Shadowhail. So I'll probably need another Leg. Shadowhail, which was my white whale when I was putting together my first end-game gearset in early 2019, the final piece of the puzzle to drop. Amber Temple again! Noooooo!!!!!!!!!!
Zamsil - L30 VKF Assassin - Cannith: Hand of Death
Zanthiss - L30 Acrobat
Zaldraan - L30 PDK Icebreaker SwashBard
I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...
Scion of Ethereal gets even better when you craft a Legendary Green Steel triple DEX skills item for +39 to DEX skills (+13 sneak attack damage and +87 net HP).
Legendary Part of the Family is the way to go, especially when you start raiding Project Nemesis and get The Family's Blessing for +2 quality Assassinate.
43 Assassin (all T5 and capstone), 23 Vistani for Celerity and Double Daggers, 7 Harper for KtA, 3 Thief Acrobat for Fast Movement, rest in racials. As you accumulate Universal AP Tomes, Racial AP Tomes and Racial Past Lives, the Halfling racial enhancements pair very well with Assassin (+2 DEX, +3 attack, +3 sneak attack dice, +3 max dodge/MDB).
Feats:
1 TWF
3 Completionist
6 Precision
9 Improved TWF
12 Improved Critical: Piercing
15 Greater TWF
18 Weapon Finesse (for Flow)
21 Overwhelming Critical
24 Improved Sneak Attack
26 Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Blinding Speed
28 Tactician
29 Dire Charge
30 Sneak of Shadows
30 Scion of Ethereal Plane
ED: Shadow Dancer or Legendary Dreadnought.
With past lives, here's the potential for doublestrike, off-hand doublestrike and dodge (something to work towards if you like playing Assassin at end game):
Dodge:
21 item
10 Assassin Measure the Foe (temporary)
10 Assassin Nimbleness (temporary)
03 Shadowdancer Untouchable
= 44% dodge
Dodge Cap:
25 base
03 Assassin Light Armor Mastery
10 Assassin Measure the Foe (temporary)
03 Halfling Nimble Reaction
02 Fencing Master
= 43%
Maximum Dexterity Bonus:
26 Legendary Wildcard
06 Assassin Light Armor Mastery
02 Augment
03 Halfling Nimble Reaction
06 Shadowdancer Lithe
02 Fencing Master
= 45%
Double Strike:
05 Vistani Quick Reflexes
03 Scourge PL x3
03 Opportunist
24 Family’s Blessing
11 Hammerfist
05 Perfect TWF
20 Vistani Rapid Attack
05 Vistani Celerity
15 Part of the Family
09 Martial Doublestrike PL x3
= 100% mainhand doublestrike
Offhand Doublestrike
05 Vistani Quick Reflexes
06 Scourge PL x3
10 Perfect TWF
05 Vistani Celerity
= 26% offhand doublestrike
80% offhand from GTWF
20% offhand from Vistani Double Daggers
= 100% attacks offhand and main
Last edited by Carpone; 01-10-2020 at 01:12 PM. Reason: Fixed some numbers
Khyber: Ying-1, Kobeyashi, Nichevo-1 | 75 million Reaper XP
Its an old thread, where some gearsets lacked melee alacrity. Using pots besides being a pain to do, breaks your hitting animation and thus, dps. The haste spell relies on having a caster and not all of them prepared it because they had no use for it. Nowadays theres plenty of alacrity options so wouldnt be the best choice for a melee.
Yerro of Orien