Update on my TWF dagger assassin-VKF pure rogue, and Level 18 Feat question

[0ldschool]

Sorry in advance for the wall of text…

Zamsil is about to take Level 18 now. Assassinate has been more fun and more effective that I could have hoped for! This is the DDO I wanted.

My Assassinate is around 53 or so now, which I find is almost always effective at level on Elite. There are obviously some quests that don’t lend themselves to lots of it (large groups of mobs that are perceptive), but for the most part it’s been great, with double Assassinations pretty easy to come by. I can Assassinate through lots of quests, and when the time comes to break stealth and attack, the damage output with dual daggers (now at 100% offhand proc) is really impressing me. I don’t think that Assassinate can ever be OP, because it is SLOW. This happens to work for me, as I’m a solo flower sniffer by nature. But for the XP/min crowd, this playstyle is never going to fly. Which is perfectly fine, but it does make grouping a challenge. If I were a dedicated grouper, I would probably bail on the assassin stuff and just go uber DPS. Notably I’m not playing Reaper, and I am anticipating that Assassinate is going to start to break down in EE due to the huge increase in mob CRs. Still, I’m going to ride this train as long as I can.

Assassin 41 - VKF 29 – and probably TA 11, though still TBD. I’m passing on KtA , which most of you would not, but I played around with Sweeping Strikes earlier and really like it, so I may go for that (thanks forum for the knowledge that it doesn’t break stealth, and thus is awesome!). I’ve always been really intrigued by the TA tree, and I may actually do a stick rogue next life.

I hesitated last night on taking Level 18 because I’m not sure what feat to take. The TWF defense and blocking feats are pretty modest benefits, I feel like I should be getting more for a feat. I’m toying with the ideas of Resilience or the even more boring Toughness.

I am also considering Quick Draw, since throwing daggers are my ranged weapon, but I tested with Blurfingered Gloves last night and saw no increase in attack speed? Does anyone know if Quick Draw is broken, or are the gloves broken? I can take the feat to find out, but I’d rather not waste a re-spec if I can avoid it.

Perhaps the most intriguing is Sap. Here is a thread with LazarusPossum talking about fitting Sap in with Assassinate. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...te-and-stealth
Much like Sweeping Strikes, anything that I can work into a sequence with Assassinate to handle larger mob groups is very desirable. Is Sap working well for any assassin's out there?

Appreciative of any and all advice. Thanks!

[unbongwah]

Quick Draw is free from the Vistani core. If you think TWD is poor ROI, Toughness is worse.

Other feats to consider: Hamstring, Improved Feint, Finesse if you use other weapons.

[Saekee]

can you take PL Sneak of Shadows (rogue PL)? Or do you have a past life in Warlock?

For stealth play, the Warlock active PL is insanely fun and a gamechanger. Sneak of Shadows is a DPS boost but you must do an annoying cast animation that takes an odd amount of time

Improved feint is great to take early

Another option for new toons is the sp one magical training so in epics you can always toss a coccoon. However it is not needed with sp clickies etc and reaper freebie sp refill drops

[0ldschool]

Quick Draw is free from the Vistani core.

Well that explains it. Thank you!

[0ldschool]

can you take PL Sneak of Shadows (rogue PL)? Or do you have a past life in Warlock?

For stealth play, the Warlock active PL is insanely fun and a gamechanger. Sneak of Shadows is a DPS boost but you must do an annoying cast animation that takes an odd amount of time

Improved feint is great to take early

Another option for new toons is the sp one magical training so in epics you can always toss a coccoon. However it is not needed with sp clickies etc and reaper freebie sp refill drops

No past lives, I'll keep that in mind for the future though. I took Improved Feint early on, thanks to your posts here. Love it, keeping Bluff high just for that, so thank you.

Interesting idea with Magical Training. I toyed with twisting Endless Faith on my other toon, but I found that I rarely needed more SP than I had for one quest, between Cocoon and UMD'ing the occasional Heal scroll. I think Sap is the best choice for fun/interesting/something new, while Resilience is practically the best choice. +1 AC and + 5 PRR from TWFD just doesn't sound as valuable as +4 to all saves, at least to me. I would take Mobility if I could, but it's blocked by Dodge. I even started to think about 2 levels of Monk for the extra martial feats, and the stances. I know nothing about Monks, but I would certainly take Ocean stance if I could, it looks pretty good to me. But I can't give up the assassin capstone, so that ship has sailed.

Thanks again!

EDIT: I started to get really intrigued by Wind Stance (any +DEX is huge for this toon, even with a HP reduction) before realizing the Centered requirement. While VKF would allow me to stay centered with daggers, no light armor is a deal breaker

[unbongwah]

Resilience is a combat stance which means it won't stack with Precision.

Never take Resilience. If they ever got rid of the spell cool down penalty it might be useful to casters, but it's useless to melee and ranged builds.

[0ldschool]

Resilience is a combat stance which means it won't stack with Precision.

Never take Resilience. If they ever got rid of the spell cool down penalty it might be useful to casters, but it's useless to melee and ranged builds.

Ummm. I thought that you could have a Defensive Combat Stance and an Offensive Combat Stance active at the same time. Is that not true?

[Arkat]

Ummm. I thought that you could have a Defensive Combat Stance and an Offensive Combat Stance active at the same time. Is that not true?

You can.

EDIT: Jetrule is correct (See below). I got messed up by not distinguishing Offensive/Defensive stances and Ranged stances.

[Jetrule]

Ummm. I thought that you could have a Defensive Combat Stance and an Offensive Combat Stance active at the same time. Is that not true?

As far as I know that only works with epic defensive fighting and any other feat granted stance. Offensive or defensive. With no past life feats available I would lean towards two weapon defense or weapon focus pierce here.

The wiki says *Offensive and Defensive Combat Stances do not work with each other but one of either type does work with any ranged stance*

I have found epic defensive fighting and one of power attack precision or combat expertise work together fine.

[0ldschool]

As far as I know that only works with epic defensive fighting and any other feat granted stance. Offensive or defensive. With no past life feats available I would lean towards two weapon defense or weapon focus pierce here.

The wiki says *Offensive and Defensive Combat Stances do not work with each other but one of either type does work with any ranged stance*

I have found epic defensive fighting and one of power attack precision or combat expertise work together fine.

Yes, it looks like that is correct. And there goes the Resilience idea. The last thing I would ever give up is Precision. I'm left thinking that heroic feats are crappy, and I just have to choose the least crappy one. TW Defense and Weap Focus Pierce are clearly decent choices, but added value that isn't all that good now and will be almost nil in Epics. Funny thing is that I just realized that the feat that would provide me the most immediate benefit, as boring as it may be, is actually Skill Focus:UMD. UMD + 3 would be really handy for me as I start to reach for the all important UMD 40 & 44 scrolls. Well, something else to consider.

Thanks for the info!

EDIT: Thinking about it after I typed this, Skill Focus:UMD is the obvious choice for me. I leaned heavily on UMD with my Mechanic, and had +3 from the Mech tree enhancement and temporary +6 from Skill Boost, also from the Mech tree. In comparison, my Assassin is struggling to use the same scrolls and wands I was using easily on my Mechanic. I considered (and am still considering) a dive into Inquis or Mech to get that boost again. I also dearly miss Wand and Scroll Mastery. UMD is never a bad investment on a rogue.

[Mindos]

Whats your total dodge, max dex bonus, armor bonus, etc?

I would take sap or dodge. Sap is great, often overlooked. No save, longer duration from sneak. It's the bomb. Dodge keeps you alive. So either or.

[0ldschool]

Whats your total dodge, max dex bonus, armor bonus, etc?

I would take sap or dodge. Sap is great, often overlooked. No save, longer duration from sneak. It's the bomb. Dodge keeps you alive. So either or.

Standing Dodge of 13% with a cap of 19%, capped by MDB 12 of Wildcard light armor + 6 from Light Armor Mastery +1 Sapphire of Armored Agility. Yes, ideally it would be higher than 13%. I can get up to 19% from Nimbleness, not ideal since you have to get hit but it is there. And for 50% of the time I'm at max dodge anyway using the Mabar dodge candy that adds Listen to dodge (best event item ever!). So it wasn't obvious to me that a sometimes used +3% Dodge would be worth a feat.

Does Sap break stealth? If it does not, then it sounds amazing and I'm taking it for sure. But my sense is that it does.

EDIT: I forgot about Measure the Foe. With that, I have 19% Dodge during sneak and for 10 seconds after sneak breaks. So that is a good chunk of the time that I'm in combat right there. I am realizing now that I should do everything I can get my MDB maxed.

[0ldschool]

I would take sap or dodge. Sap is great, often overlooked. No save, longer duration from sneak. It's the bomb. Dodge keeps you alive. So either or.

I took Sap. Sap is a keeper. I used it tonight as a go-to after an Assassinate when a mob nearby spotted me and broke my sneak. It basically takes 1 mob out of action, so increases the # of mobs I can take on by one. It takes a little thought to hit with Sap once and then move on, so as to not immediately un-stun the Sapped mob, but its very doable. I imagine that this is not nearly as useful on a toon that always groups.

I put Solipsism on the Leg. Drow Sages Cowl on my last toon, and it had a similar effect. But that was random, not procing very often, and was a lot shorter duration. This is targeted and lasts a long time. I really like it, thanks. The best part is no save. It reminds me of no save procs from Shiradi like Pin, Otto's, & Nerve Venom, which gave my Mechanic his only real CC. Now I'm dreaming of an AoE Sap!

[Kutalp]

Nice build.



If to go pure Assasin and naturally melee, I wouldnot skip Improved feint and Sap. Thy're both just amazing.

Anyhow I wish Assasin tree was updated in a way that Assasins could be able to use entire abilites toggle effect: Melee/Ranged.


What I go for heroic feats at all builds (even at casters lately) is Precision, Pointblankshot, Rapidshot, Improved criticial Throwing or Ranged (I like throwing more lately), Die Hard. (Ranged feats work at all ranges and at all builds to save SP, to damage enemies or to soften tem up between spells even with THF build)


Rest is either Quickdraw if not caster. Spell focus line is caster. Insightful reflexes for wizard, Force of Personality for bard, Mental toughness or toughness if room left. (When Human)

I used to go Dodge line and whirlwind. Extra dodge is nice but not fair enough from so many feats, whirlwind is better with Ravager/Kensei. Waste with TWF.

I would like to grab extra saves feats or skill feats and more but all are ridiclously weak for feats. (A pure fighter with 2-6 levels of rogue might consider taking them)



Have a good time.

[Saekee]

so you took Sap? That can be fun. Doublestrike hits seem to break it if I recall and yes, the solipsism effect is similar. Even if you know it will break from another hit, you can use it to disrupt a caster animation (attack spell).

I used to use it on isolated mobs if I failed an assassinate. I would sap them, drop back into sneak, hit bluff and try assassinate again. Rinse repeat...now you can skip the bluff part so even easier.

In the future, splashing 1 monk can be very fun early and running centered. You can stack ninja faster sneaking, use wraps on some mobs, and if you have Perfect Pinnacle you can run in fire stance and have lots of blinds proc with weapons. In fact, I am surprised to not see more ninjassassin flavor builds using it for heroics.

[0ldschool]

I used to use it on isolated mobs if I failed an assassinate. I would sap them, drop back into sneak, hit bluff and try assassinate again. Rinse repeat...now you can skip the bluff part so even easier.

When my Assassinate starts to fail, that is exactly what I'll be doing too. For now, it makes 3 mob groups ( or even 4 if you get a double Assassinate to start with) a lot easier to handle as they can all be taken on one-on-one. There is a lot of value in that.

In the future, splashing 1 monk can be very fun early and running centered. You can stack ninja faster sneaking, use wraps on some mobs, and if you have Perfect Pinnacle you can run in fire stance and have lots of blinds proc with weapons. In fact, I am surprised to not see more ninjassassin flavor builds using it for heroics.

I am still tempted by a monk level. Not only for the extra martial feat but Wind Stance gives very nice bonuses to DEX and DPS. If the Assassin capstone did not exist, and you could stay centered with light armor, I would absolutely be pulling the trigger on a Monk level.

Perfect Pinnacle, just found it. Oh, that is cool. How often does the blind proc? I LOVED Blinding on my TF GxB, it was like instant death to the first attacked mob. But I could see how a mob running around like a chicken with its head cut off would not be ideal for a melee.

[0ldschool]

My first attempt to post a build from EllisDee's Character Planner Lite. This is roughly where I am now, with the Epics stuff still TBD. Includes my current planned dive into TA for Sweeping Strikes, but that may change, especially since I'm 1 AP short at the moment. There are 8 AP in play that could go anywhere. I've toyed with Halfling, Harper for KtA, and Inquis and even Mechanic tree dives for Skill Boost and some other perks.

Zamsil Orcusbourn
Rogue 20
True Neutral Halfling


Stats
. . . . . . . .32pt . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . .4: DEX
Dexterity . . . 19. . . .8: DEX
Constitution. . 14. . . 12: DEX
Intelligence. . 16. . . 16: DEX
Wisdom. . . . . .9. . . 20: DEX
Charisma. . . . .8. . . 24: DEX
. . . . . . . . . . . . 28: DEX

Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Disable . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Open Lo . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Search. . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Bluff . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Diplo . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Jump. . . 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Hide. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Move Si . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Balance . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .22
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .44 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11


Feats

.1. . . . : Improved Feint
.3. . . . : Two Weapon Fighting
.6. . . . : Precision
.9. . . . : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Sap
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Improved Sneak Attack
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Harbinger of Chaos
30 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane

10 Rogue. : Improved Evasion
13 Rogue. : Defensive Roll
16 Rogue. : Opportunist
19 Rogue. : Slippery Mind


Enhancements (82+1 of 80+1 AP) Errors

Assassin (41 AP)

• Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality, Deadly Shadow
  1. Shiv III, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy III
  2. Sneak Attack Training, Damage Boost III
  3. Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
  4. Execute, Killer III, Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
  5. Assassinate, Measure the Foe III, Knife Specialization, Light Armor Mastery III

Vistani Knife Fighter (29 AP)

• Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist
  1. Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
  2. Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker
  3. Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Deadly Blades, Dexterity
  4. Vistani Knife Training, Celerity, Mist Stalker, Double Daggers, Dexterity

Thief-Acrobat (12 AP)

• Staff Control, Stick Fighting
  1. Sly Flourish II, Fast Movement
  2. Subtlety III, Quick Strike I
  3. Sweeping Strikes I

Halfling (1 AP)

• Halfling Luck

[DYWYPI]

Blinded monsters move and attack at half speed and are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks, as you'll be aware.

I LOVED Blinding on my TF GxB, it was like instant death to the first attacked mob. But I could see how a mob running around like a chicken with its head cut off would not be ideal for a melee.

Generally it's no problem having to chase Blinded mobs; the main hindrance is typically catching the strong mobile mobs that aren't blinded. For example when within a group and somebody decides to sprint around in a fleeing fashion, usually making it far more difficult to catch-up to that target to Assassinate or pin-down and allow you to melee one on one, toe-to-toe, etc. Typically that type of scenario occurs with the 'Vault of the Night' Raid PUGs, e.g. you'll have Casters fleeing Golems and making a truly poor fist of things - it can be a palaver - as you can easily 1-hit Golems on Epic Elite but only if you can catch them. :-/

Update: I even illustrated the usefulness of an Assassin Blinding opponents within the: R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players!, Stealthy Repossession.

[...] I made good use of skulduggery; since my stealth skills weren't as fluid as they should have been. I wasn't on my normal Assassins so lacked any useful gear... I'll give you a hint of what I did when things went "a little ill" with the Prophets tracking me, near the start.

"A blind Kobold Prophet will not thank you for a looking-glass." >;-) ...

So as you can gather usually it's beneficial for an Assassin having blinded mobs close at hand. ;-)

[0ldschool]

Blinded monsters move and attack at half speed and are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks, as you'll be aware.



Generally it's no problem having to chase Blinded mobs; the main hindrance is typically catching the strong mobile mobs that aren't blinded. For example when within a group and somebody decides to sprint around in a fleeing fashion, usually making it far more difficult to catch-up to that target to Assassinate or pin-down and allow you to melee one on one, toe-to-toe, etc. Typically that type of scenario occurs with the 'Vault of the Night' Raid PUGs, e.g. you'll have Casters fleeing Golems and making a truly poor fist of things - it can be a palaver - as you can easily 1-hit Golems on Epic Elite but only if you can catch them. :-/

Update: I even illustrated the usefulness of an Assassin Blinding opponents within the: R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players!, Stealthy Repossession.



So as you can gather usually it's beneficial for an Assassin having blinded mobs close at hand. ;-)

Thanks for the info. When I was looking for advice on what to put on my TF GxB, there were a lot of mixed feelings here on the forum regarding Blinding. It seemed a lot of the negative opinions were from the melee perspective. To me, it was wonderful from the get go on my Mechanic, and I was overjoyed that I chose it. I did not have a source of Improved Deception at the time, and seeing the burst of SA damage was a real eye opener to me just how much it mattered (it was my first toon). A no save full sneak attack damage proc on the first mob hit was devastating, they were instantly out of the fight and quickly dead. And it proc's on most mobs. I was genuinely sad to switch to the Morninglord GxB when the time came, which is numerically superior but not nearly as fun. And considering how long I farmed for Divine Artillery, and for the ingots for the TF GxB, being just handed the Morninglord GxB was extremely anti-climactic.

Well, it looks like I may have a Blinding TF dagger in my future. Thanks again.

[Saekee]

Perfect pinnacle blind procs a lot, not sure of %—I would assume 5% but it ‘feels’ higher.
Blinding mobs is also good defense!
It is useless against bosses but hey, switch weapons at that moment. Improved deception works on bosses so that is why peeps prefer it to blinding.

If one weapon blinds while the other one paralyzes...Throw in tendon slice and that blind mob will not wander anywhere.

I made a GS radiance kukri pre-vistani and then they killed it, so I am reluctant to make one again. But with Pinnacle I will get blinding on any weapon. It procs on shurikens! It is just a bummer that it is fire stance not wind