Barbarian class and Two Handed fighting

[Kutalp]

I wish you a good day.


This is yet another post about balancing issues. Ranger class is known with ambidexterity thus giving free TWF but also free Ranged feats and favored enemies to rangers without any requirements. Other classes also have other tasty hams and broccolis of their own.

The game is live and it is well known that the classes are not the same as paper/rp D&D. My suggestion is bringing other classes to a better place and balancing the gameplay. ( Please NOTE the ITEM powercreep vs CLASS powers )


Just a note any serious player who plays DDO for a long time and pretends Melee beats Ranged and Caster classes is simply kidding. Melee has nor real advantage over anythign except the Basic cleave feats (got old allready ) and yeah Dire charge etc at epics (got old allready). I have been playing and enjyoying melee classes for a long time be it hybrid ranged or caster with melee. No need to spread lies when long time players know the truth. It is time for reading the suggestions vs parody thread. Have a nice time.


One day a Paletrapper, Rogue splash ranger and Barbarian entered a bar...Nah lets get back to 'serious' business.


Would the Barbarian class have extra love such as;


Movement speed as passive improvement every six levels and an extra at 20. %10 at first for everyone who wishes to splash. %10 extra at 6 (Bard warchanter gets %15 at T5), %10 extra at 12, %10 at 18 and extra %10 for reaching 20 for Pure barbs as a jest. Bringing movement speed of Barbarian class to a passive %50 for lvl 20. Fpr splashes up to 12, %30 which is equal to a random loot Speed boost %30. Let these bonuses please stack with anytihng else.

Attack speed. This is not to hit but attack speed boost for Barbarian class. Theif acrobat gets %15 bonus with Quarterstaves. Please give barbarian class +%5 at barbarian level 1 with any type of weapon. Total of %15 at Barbarian level 8. %25 at Barbarian level 12. %35 at level 16. % 45 at 18 and %55 for Pure Barbarians. The bonus attack speed for weapons may differ starting from lvl 8 and up. Barbarians with lvl 8+ would get full bonus for melee weapons and -%20 of the bonus for ranged weapons. Thrown weapons would get smilar bonus with melee weapon bonus to speed.

Two Handed fighting. Please give Barbarian class Two handed fighting and Throwing weapon feats free. [ All defensive and stat bonus feats/abilites requires wearing LIGHT ARMOR, CLOTH OR NOTHING. Wielding a Shield or Medium or Heavy armor negates the bonuses. Defensive stances negates the bonuses ] Now lets see what can some random brainstorming do for us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCFwwjyg-pE

Barbarian level 1 Power attack, Brutal throw, Fast Movement, %5 attack speed with any weapon. +1 to Balance skill every Barbarian level. +%5 natural fortification, elemental resistance and +1 natural armor for each barbarian level.

Barbarian level 2 Two Handed Fighting

Barbarian level 3 Die Hard +1 to reflex saves

Barbarian level 4 Dodge -10 seconds to exhaustion timer after Rage expires +2 to strength and constitution when barbarian is not wearing medium, heavy armors, is not wielding a shield and when not at any type of defensive stance.

Barbarian level 5 Glancing blow damage +%5 and to hit +1, +%50 chance to avoid disease and poison +4 to strength and constitution when barbarian is not wearing medium, heavy armors, is not wielding a shield and when not at any type of defensive stance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KilzZTuZr0

Barbarian level 6 Mobility, +1 to reflex saves, Improved Two Handed Fighting, %20 Fast movement, %10 attack speed, +%25 chance to resist negative level and instant kill spells immune to strength damage +6 to Strength and constitution when barbarian is not wearing medium, heavy armors, is not wielding a shield and when not at any type of defensive stance.

Barbarian level 7 -10 seconds to exhaustion after Rage expiration

Barbarian level 8 +%15 attack speed with any weapon, Glancing blow damage +%5 and to hit +1

Barbarian level 9 +1 to reflex saves, Evasion, Spring attack, %50 chance to resist negative level and instant kill spells, %50 chance to avoid constitution damage. +9 Total strength when Barbarian is not at any type of defensive stance, wearing medium or heavy armors or not wielding any type of shield.


Barbarian level 10 -10 seconds to exhaustion timer after Rage expires . Immunity to any type of poison and disease.

Barbarian level 11 Greater Two Handed Fighting. Precision. THF has % 10 chance to knock enemies around you.



Barbarian level 12 Fast movement %30, Shot on the run, Glancing blow damage +% 20 total top of THF feats.. Total bonus of +3 to hit with Glancing blows. Immune to all stat damage. Immune to any Instant kill effect and negative levels. +12 strength and constitution when barbarian is not wearing medium, heavy armors, is not wielding a shield and when not at any type of defensive stance.

Barbarian level 14 +1 to reflex saves -10 seconds to exhaustion timer after Rage expires. THF has %15 chance to knock enemies around you.

Barbarian level 16 +1 to reflex saves -10 seconds to exhaustion timer after Rage expires, Glancing blow damage +%25 total top of THF feats. Total bonus +of +4 to hit with Glancing blows. THF has % 25 chance to knock enemies around you. +16 to strength and constitution when barbarian is not at any type of defensive stance, not wielding any type of shield, when not wearing any type of medium or heavy armor.

Barbarian level 18 Fast movement %40 , Immune to Will save based attacks.

Barbarian level 19 +1 to reflex saves -10 seconds to exhaustion timer after Rage expires Glancing blow damage +%30 total top of THF feats . Total bonus of +5 to hit with Glancing blows THF has %30 chance to knock enemies around you

Barbarian level 20 +2 to reflex saves ,Fast movement %55. Glancing blow damage +40 total top of THF feats. Total bonus of +6 to hit with Glancing blows -10 seconds to exhaustion timer after Rage expires. THF has % 35 chance to knock enemies around you. Vorpals with THF allways knock all enemies around you without a save for 7 seconds. +20 to strength and constitution with the same requirements above.


Thanks for reading


Barbiebarian :v

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vdt2tgOgP8

[shmagmhar]

i like it , yeah barb needs some love . having to take the same feats everytime for barb is a bore

[JohnFlory]

Having played 3 Barbarians in a row now, I don't really understand the issue. They are powerful, they have plenty of enhancements that specifically improve THF and they still have a lot of versality on them - considering we're still talking about Barbs who are by design rather simple.

Let's do this step by step though:

1. Movement speed: Barbs get 10% on top of everything else, which means that very few classes can keep up. They can also take speed boost, which adds 50% even on top of that. They are already blindlingly fast and making them even faster would start to hinder party play.
2. Attack speed: Balancing issue. Barbs deal a ton of damage per hit. It's their shtick. They have a 2-hander, PA, etc. Attack speed would heavily unbalance them when they're already pretty good in terms of damage output.
3. Free THF: Why? Why give away free feats? That's just a plain power creep. True, with PA, Cleave, G.Cleave, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Compl they're already set in stone, but similar things go for classes like Sorc or Wiz. Your entire list has 6 free feats - now noone can take you seriously. I get THF or PA. Not both, not more. Give some freedom, I get it. Besides, Barbs get Die Hard with just a single AP...
4. All the extra glancing stuff: It's also in the enhancement tree. You get it, if you want. Barb turns into an AoE machine.

So yeah, I get it. It's not Sorc. It's not easy mode. But it's still very powerful to play, can easily solo R1, has a ton of HP and hamp and has very high sustainable damage.

Now, for the good stuff:
Making exhaustion scale is smart.
Personally, I'd like for Rage to become a toggle ability at one point, because it's just too annoying to end a rage just to ress people, then turn it back on, and builds that use Rage charges for Visage suffer a bit.

[Kutalp]

Thank you very much for the valuble input.

[psykopeta]

So yeah, I get it. It's not Sorc. It's not easy mode. But it's still very powerful to play, can easily solo R1, has a ton of HP and hamp and has very high sustainable damage.

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude but u missed the point! it's like the dumbass asking for balance when even knowing how to play properly a melee!

in that case OP asks for a lot of... powercreep? which would be... interesting? to see how all the reamining classes should be forced for a revamp to be close to it

after that we would see the "new" quest packs designed for these kind of enhancements, gear and classes with around 200 times more hp than the previous old packs

barbs could get some extra mitigation other than prr and dodge which they already have like... dr they already have? cause dps wise they're not struggling, same with hamp, so not sure where they're struggling

truth be told, i remember the "barb playing style" which affected my next lives cause when i tried to do the same... well, i was dying lol, guess something needs to be fixed, and it's not being able to cast/scroll when raged

[Thrudh]

All the ideas presented are far too much.

Just silliness, really.

Exhaustion is indeed annoying. Let's just remove that... There, ONE simple change that might actually get implemented by a dev.

Asking for 50% movement speed, 55% attack speed, 8 free feats, and MORE all in one post is just silly.

[Kutalp]

There is both serious suggestions and the parody there. I believe you have allready realised it. The readers need to pick which one is The suggestion and which one is the parody.

Anyhow, the live game is putting sustained damage and avoidance on the table which is the Bitter truth.


Thanks for the precious comments.

[janave]

Fairly standard bard, rogue builds have better static run speed from level 11. Barbarian run speed is inherited. Lots of classes can train speed enhancements now, Barbarians should have better speed inherently

10% to 15% seems a reasonable buff there for me. (+5% at level 10 Barbarian or something). And maybe another 3/3/3% trainable by level 6, this way they get better freebie to kick off and still be ahead of the homebrew additions by a small degree. A new optional epic feat could grant them another +6% speed and +4 con/str while raging, fully specced + raging running at monk speeds.

Everybody with Falconry now can get sprint boost. (which is great really..)

So the differences arent too large.

[Kutalp]

Fairly standard bard, rogue builds have better static run speed from level 11. Barbarian run speed is inherited. Lots of classes can train speed enhancements now, Barbarians should have better speed inherently

10% to 15% seems a reasonable buff there for me. (+5% at level 10 Barbarian or something). And maybe another 3/3/3% trainable by level 6, this way they get better freebie to kick off and still be ahead of the homebrew additions by a small degree. A new optional epic feat could grant them another +6% speed and +4 con/str while raging, fully specced + raging running at monk speeds.

Everybody with Falconry now can get sprint boost. (which is great really..)

So the differences arent too large.

Hi janave. Good points have been made there; as usual. My appreciatitons to you.

[Jetrule]

I enjoy Barbarian play. They have a certain blood soaked surviveability with the mitigation and damage avoidance they have they take damage but have good ability to stand toe to to and survive. The aoe damage out put is ok but a bit on the slow side with kensai based fighters using a two handed weapon being a better dps choice. I recently (hit 30 yesterday) leveled a second life alt to cap with 18 barb levels, 1 cleric for divine might and 1 fighter for kensai haste boost two handed weapons user. I am mostly satisfied with him and his offence and defense. fury of the wild is a fun and more effective dps destiny now for a two handed barb.

If I had one wish for better barbs it would be for some fort bypass in the trees. The big dps appeal they have to me is extra multipliers available for 19-20 crit rolls. I have the lvl 18 core in berzerker and the tier 5 in occult slayer so thats 2 extra crit multi on 19-20 rolls other classes cant get. I would like to more reliably see those eye popping crits at cap.

[Kutalp]

I enjoy Barbarian play. They have a certain blood soaked surviveability with the mitigation and damage avoidance they have they take damage but have good ability to stand toe to to and survive. The aoe damage out put is ok but a bit on the slow side with kensai based fighters using a two handed weapon being a better dps choice. I recently (hit 30 yesterday) leveled a second life alt to cap with 18 barb levels, 1 cleric for divine might and 1 fighter for kensai haste boost two handed weapons user. I am mostly satisfied with him and his offence and defense. fury of the wild is a fun and more effective dps destiny now for a two handed barb.

If I had one wish for better barbs it would be for some fort bypass in the trees. The big dps appeal they have to me is extra multipliers available for 19-20 crit rolls. I have the lvl 18 core in berzerker and the tier 5 in occult slayer so thats 2 extra crit multi on 19-20 rolls other classes cant get. I would like to more reliably see those eye popping crits at cap.

Agree with you about Barbr vs Kensei (and Tempest and some can add a couple more enhancement trees for sure). Congratulations with 30 ! Divine mights a good twist even with Char items yeah (Items beat base specs right now and yeah PDK Silvanus and such)

Sustained vs Critical damage issue stands there for melees when they face the face to face combat for sure. Especially for Barbs that are tied to T5 crits and Barb rage; epic destinies and Pot chugging and item sets. Burst dps but brittle. Thanks for the input Jetrule.

[Jetrule]

Agree with you about Barbr vs Kensei (and Tempest and some can add a couple more enhancement trees for sure). Congratulations with 30 ! Divine mights a good twist even with Char items yeah (Items beat base specs right now and yeah PDK Silvanus and such)

Sustained vs Critical damage issue stands there for melees when they face the face to face combat for sure. Especially for Barbs that are tied to T5 crits and Barb rage; epic destinies and Pot chugging and item sets. Burst dps but brittle. Thanks for the input Jetrule.

I was referring to kensai just doing better damage with two handed weapon. Nearly any lvl 30 2 weapon user and most single weapon fighting style users do better damage than a two handed weapon fighter because of the way double strike works with those builds. For leveling though before a certain level of double strike is reached the aoe damage cleaving barb is very fun and competitive. A typical wolf build using a two handed weapon remains very nice dps even at 30 though.

[Kutalp]

I was referring to kensai just doing better damage with two handed weapon. Nearly any lvl 30 2 weapon user and most single weapon fighting style users do better damage than a two handed weapon fighter because of the way double strike works with those builds. For leveling though before a certain level of double strike is reached the aoe damage cleaving barb is very fun and competitive. A typical wolf build using a two handed weapon remains very nice dps even at 30 though.

True. Only if dear Developers consider adding swing speed to heroic Two Handed fighting feats similar to Druid wolf ones.

[JohnFlory]

What Barbs have that other classes struggle with:
3.5k HP (not quite at cap, never bothered with cap gear, no Shroud items, no excessive reaper points)
A close to no-fail instakill spell that slays 6 enemies, healing you for 700-800 HP
Self-healing through reaper debuffs
Speed for days - you're always the fastest hero in your party for short runs and long ones

[Kutalp]

First of all I like Barbarian roleplay.


The live game, Barbarian really does not carry itself well without HJealing issues. Awfull defense, Crappy offense without Rage (too much restrictions and too weak. A joke), 20 second extra run speed after the level one tiny %10 bonus, all enhancements tied to Melee power and style. Damage reduction fails hard vs Fortification or Dodge. Not enough reflex saves for Dodge.

No real weapon to hit and base damage enhancements. Everytihng is rolled by luck 1d6, 2d6 (Go get Assasin poison blades, Killer enhancement, Mechanic awesome Great crossbow enhancements, 11 ap Kensai critcal enhancement and bonus to fort and saves. Much better to hit and damage aswell as ability score and defense enhancements from Kensei and Stalward) 30-45 second cooldown special attacks, +4 to hit every 30 seconds and while on raged say for Ravager. Too long cooldown for OC heal, to gimped heal for Ravager and Frenzi?ed Berserker.

Human gives better (only +60 Hjealing amp stil beats Barb with only 15 ap spent)

Sadly I dont play Barbarian over Fighter and Ranger and Rogue or deep caster splashes,anymore for said reasons. Extra hitpoints to melt really does not cut it. (Cleric Animal domain) I wish it would. All flavor.


Random comments from random people telling; someone does not know how to play this or that class (since 2012) also amuses me.


I wish all classes were functional and some of them were not for flavor runs.

[MeleeAddicted]

Barbarian needs some love, anyone knows that. Whoever says the opposite i think they haven't play the class at current endgame. I am not sure about the free feats(if are necessary) but the rage is too weak and restrictive.
Some changes to the rage i would like to see are:
1)some feats that are not usable while being raged, (like the one with the 5% to-hit and 25% fotrification bypass) to start to be able to use while raged.
2)make the rage more powerfull at all levels by adding defensive(prr, mrr, dodge cap) offensive (mp, strengh, unique attacks on vorpal like trip with no save or the procs of frenzy, death frenzy to be more powerful)

Moreover, two handed fighting is the weakest way of fighting of all. I think devs already said that they will make some changes so i wait to see. Hopefully, on the next update.

There are others things that i have think, but i am typing with a Phone atm and i am tired....

Sorry for my poor english.

[Kutalp]

MeleeAddicted and JohnFlory.


Thank you very much for your kind respond and valuable comments.

[BigErkyKid]

Barbs are just dated.

• Movement speed: already surpassed by lots of other classes, that get 1% per class level; even armored paladins are as fast as a barb. Barb should be AT LEAST be as fast as one of the 20% movement classes, and quite honestly, I would make it faster. Make it a rage thing or whatever.
• DPS: barb DPS is behind DPS classes even in kobold beatdowns. And those do not account for things like to hit and fort bypass, where the barb lags significantly behind other archetypes. It doesn't help that barb ends to be tied to THF and THF sucks big time now. But even as TWF, similar problems, the barb is just worse.
• Self healing: only works in content where you can stun lock and nuke enemies (mid to high skulls), or when content is just so easy you can beat it rapidly.
• Insta kills: meh for meh easier content where they land more reliably. It is a gimmick and I wouldn't play the class just for that.

Honestly, barb is a pure flavor choice. I think you might be able to beat a barb in DPS just by going INQ and harper and racial trees, and simply taking the extra action boosts from barb; it is that sad.

I want my Slayer Dwarf back, but the game simply does not support that play style anymore. Maybe in 3 years they'll get a boost, who knows, when the meta goes around again in Armor up 2.0...turns out you players were right, we need to buff armors again!

[Kutalp]

BigErkyKid thanks for the solid critization.


What I can say about revamp is SSG did great job with Eldricht knight and Palemaster trees. Simply solid and balanced to go for a quality gaming experience with wizards. I hope all classes get the same level of quality for their trees.

My humble opinon about Barb and all other classes. I wish we had only two trees for each class. Picking the most usefull enhancements and delivering them as more offensive or more defensive at two different trees for each class.


Players could pull their own combination out of two enhancement trees and ofcourse from trimmed racial trees ( cheaper racial trees that focus at skills, healing amplification, saves, fortification or natural armor etc )



( Ps Out of Barbarian talk, but related over enhancement trees ; I dont tell Archmage revamp is not required but wish Palemaster avoidance and pet, Eldricht knight arcane warrior and archmage versatile caster enhancements were scattered across two trees one being more offensive the other more defensive. Each one has strong offensive or strong defensive bonsues at T5 and core which would let the player base define their builds over decisions; much easier without AP mess or regrets. )


Just my humble eight pieces...

[JohnFlory]

Barbarian needs some love, anyone knows that. Whoever says the opposite i think they haven't play the class at current endgame.

My last 3 lives were Barbs. They are perfectly fine.

1. I always made it first to quests (i.e. fastest runner)
2. I was always amongst the best last-hitters (despite that being difficult for AoE damagers), only beaten by Sorc, FavS and people who are just crazy.
3. Instakill almost always works if you have a CON build.
4. Self-healing goes the same way, it's perfectly fine.

Adressing the quote "current endgame" and issues some people might have with points 3 & 4: What do you really want? Every class to be viable in R10? Because that's a ridiculous wish to have. Barb is one of the strongest in early levels, one of the strongest in mid levels, falls off a bit in late heroics before being among the strongest in epics. Is he a useful r10 build? Of course not, because r10 has nothing to do with this game. r10 is a playground for exploiting very specific aspects. You don't balance all classes around a difficulty that is utterly irrelevant for almost all players, because if you do that everything else will be absolutely unplayable.