Tier five enhancements

[Roubajs]

Hello. I want to open discussion on tier five enhancements being exlusive. I just wonder why. What would be so bad if you allow 2 tier 5? I know there is a lot of restrictions. So if we keep those restrictions like class level and character level in place why cannot we allow more tier 5? I was just wondering about this when I tried to make monk/rogue staff based build that it would be really nice to have two tier 5. I understand that sometimes it would be op, but when there are no other restrictions, why not allow this? Maybe check op cases by changing some character level condition to class level. Or maybe allow just one tier five for every character class. But again maybe not, because that would make multiclassing op. I don't know, I just want to open this topic and hear your opinions. Also balance wise if we were allowed 2 tier 5, the biggest problem I see are those universal enhancement trees.

[C-Dog]

Because it would be too powerful, and there's enough power creep already.

Other than that...

[Enoach]

I believe it has to do with a strive to balance the build options.

The same reason why the system is designed so you cannot have two Capstones.

[HungarianRhapsody]

If you could have two sets of tier 5 enhancements, there would be some builds that get an ENORMOUS boost in power.

If you limit the Tier 5 enhancements so that you need 12 class levels instead of 12 character levels, you'd kill a lot of builds.

Lots of problems in both directions there.

[Rull]

Hello. I want to open discussion on tier five enhancements being exlusive. I just wonder why. What would be so bad if you allow 2 tier 5? I know there is a lot of restrictions. So if we keep those restrictions like class level and character level in place why cannot we allow more tier 5? I was just wondering about this when I tried to make monk/rogue staff based build that it would be really nice to have two tier 5. I understand that sometimes it would be op, but when there are no other restrictions, why not allow this? Maybe check op cases by changing some character level condition to class level. Or maybe allow just one tier five for every character class. But again maybe not, because that would make multiclassing op. I don't know, I just want to open this topic and hear your opinions. Also balance wise if we were allowed 2 tier 5, the biggest problem I see are those universal enhancement trees.

I think the single tier5 is the cornerstone of the whole enhancement system in it's current form.

Without this limitation almost all builds would be just two trees up to tier5 and that's it. The number of builds would be reduced to the number of two-tree combinations. The fact that it would be 'OP' isn't an argument for me, every build would be running around with two t5's, so they are balanced against eachother. But it would be terribly boring.

The main thing seems to be "I understand that sometimes it would be op", I think you underestimate that it would almost always be OP. Every rogue assassin would probably also want to be t5 vistani. Every t5 swashbuckler would want to be t5 in another martial class as well.

Even within a single class. Every wizard would be t5 archmage, t5 pale master. Currently you have to choose between
capstone palemaster, t5 PM
capstone palemaster, t5 AM
capstone archemage, t5 AM
capstone archemage, t5 PM
and each one has something going for it.
With your change it would be just
capstone palemaster, t5 both
capstone archemage, t5 both
Across the whole field of builds, the reduction would be much greater.

In understand the frustration, but try to take it as a starting point for designing a character instead of hurdle you run into.
First define your t5, this is the most characteristic thing about your character. Then you have 15 class levels and 45ish AP left to flesh it out.
So you got to choose. For instance, do you want an acrobat with a lot of help from monk? or a hensin with a lot of help from rogue? A lot of help in this case really can be a LOT, you can be an acrobat with 12 monk levels and a core4 from monk (even a 5 ranger 15 paladin with t5 in tempest is still a tempest with holy sword... not a paladin with a ranger splash).

[palladin9479]

I'd say you were allowed a second T5 if you had 12 levels of a specific class and the other T5 had to be within that class. Right now the meta is dominated by multi-classing to hit lots of low hanging fruit with ~maybe~ a T5 from a tree, often a certain OP universal tree. The tree's within each class usually serve a different purpose and focus, so they rarely "stack" in terms of damage output which is what breaks the game. Like having T5 kensei and T5 defender won't do much, same with Palemaster and EK or Archmage, so on and so forth. Honestly the only "brokenness" I see happening is with the OP **** storm that is Inquisitive, and a player can be broken level OP by just putting 41 points in there and leaving the other 39 points unallocated.

Oh and I really thing T5's shouldn't become an option without at least 10 levels in that class, having it at 5 just leads to a ton of exploitative builds.