Power disparities in the racial TR wheel

[Chai]

Giving enemy monsters the same kind of damage that players have would result in instantly dead players. Trash mobs have 10,000 HP at cap. PCs don't.

We have way more DPS than monsters have, but they have way more HP than we have and there are way more of them than there are of us. That kind of balance is currently fine(ish). Giving them PC levels of damage output would not make the game better.

Percentage wise melee mobs have more damage than players do. They can one shot kill at times, and 2-3 shot kills are pretty common. This is already a thing in DDO, not some theory never seen in practice.

Its only those who are too fixated on the numbers while fully ignoring the actual end results who disbelieve this.

Also, significantly increasing enemy ranged damage wouldn't make PC ranged characters and PC melee characters more balanced. It would further disadvantage melee characters because melee characters STILL have to close that distance before they can kill that enemy and ranged characters STILL don't have to do that.

Which is STILL false, as a ranged mob can damage you from across the room, nullifying the advantage of putting distance between you.

Example. Running EVON1 on high reaper. ForumDDO® gripes often that having to get into melee range is a disadvantage, but when the inquis (todays "this new thing" which needs a nerf because "its ranged") starts shooting from the end of the hallway, the trolls and ogres pull out bows and hit like a truck, just like they hit like trucks in melee. This nullifies the ranged advantage for players. The ranged player no longer gets to plink away from a relatively safe distance.

Meanwhile in other news, its no different for the melee, as that encounter was dangerous to them from go (not more dangerous as you claim).

What scenario are you afraid of where this hurts melee even more? The only way it is more dangerous for melee is if the melee literally choose to be ineffective by staying at range, and in that case its a L2P melee issue and not a DPS parity issue.

[BigErkyKid]

I must say i did many tr with wolf build and was great in heroic.
I think is the player behind that speed up the racial more than the class.

This is different from end game r10.

My not optimized sorc was doing around 500 on regular hits on not helpless mobs with chain lightening in r1 around level 15, that's enough to one shot the majority of mobs in that range. I could show the maths dont want to to work for the forums.

Wolf builds are decent in heroics (healing, good dps), but having grouped with good wolves in INQ+sorc parties, I can tell you they don't stand a chance. They lack good AoE, need to go in close range, don't have as high burst, have limited CC, and I could go on.

It is most certainly not the player, it is the build. Of course, there are differences of skill, but the disparities in builds are huge.

[SpartanKiller13]

My not optimized sorc was doing around 500 on regular hits on not helpless mobs with chain lightening in r1 around level 15, that's enough to one shot the majority of mobs in that range. I could show the maths dont want to to work for the forums.

Wolf builds are decent in heroics (healing, good dps), but having grouped with good wolves in INQ+sorc parties, I can tell you they don't stand a chance. They lack good AoE, need to go in close range, don't have as high burst, have limited CC, and I could go on.

It is most certainly not the player, it is the build. Of course, there are differences of skill, but the disparities in builds are huge.

I'm a Silvanus melee main, but I played a DC casting Wizard life earlier this year. It was quite a LOT better at killing lots of stuff at range than my usual lives as a melee machine, despite being much less investment in gear, PL's, player knowledge, etc. I'm about to do another now that the PM & Magister passes hit, it seems like I'll pretty easily be able to cruise in mid-Reaper instead of R1 where I was. Not that I can't as a melee, but there's a big difference between hitting stuff while frantically trying not to die vs pushing a button and an enemy or four die.

Melee's in a better spot than it's been in a while IMO, but I definitely agree it could use a bit more help lol. There's a huge reason I always recommend buddy groups joining DDO to go all-melee or all-ranged; if you're a melee in a ranged party you generally spend most of the quest watching stuff die outside of your reach.

[Forzah]

Percentage wise melee mobs have more damage than players do. They can one shot kill at times, and 2-3 shot kills are pretty common. This is already a thing in DDO, not some theory never seen in practice.

Its only those who are too fixated on the numbers while fully ignoring the actual end results who disbelieve this.



Which is STILL false, as a ranged mob can damage you from across the room, nullifying the advantage of putting distance between you.

Example. Running EVON1 on high reaper. ForumDDO® gripes often that having to get into melee range is a disadvantage, but when the inquis (todays "this new thing" which needs a nerf because "its ranged") starts shooting from the end of the hallway, the trolls and ogres pull out bows and hit like a truck, just like they hit like trucks in melee. This nullifies the ranged advantage for players. The ranged player no longer gets to plink away from a relatively safe distance.

Meanwhile in other news, its no different for the melee, as that encounter was dangerous to them from go (not more dangerous as you claim).

What scenario are you afraid of where this hurts melee even more? The only way it is more dangerous for melee is if the melee literally choose to be ineffective by staying at range, and in that case its a L2P melee issue and not a DPS parity issue.

Melees get hit by ranged damage too (for example, when running to mobs, or when fighting more than one ranged mob). Therefore, melee receive more damage compared to now when ranged damage increases. Thus, it is correct to say that encounters become more dangerous than now for melee with the proposed change.

I think encounters with multiple ranged mobs become almost unplayable (you could die immediately when there are 2 or 3 ranged mobs). If you want to make melee and ranged damage from mobs the same, then the damage per attack must be considerably lower, but that could be quite boring in fights without ranged mobs. Another option would be to scale ranged damage based on the number of active ranged mobs, but that seems a bit artificial.

[Chai]

Melees get hit by ranged damage too (for example, when running to mobs, or when fighting more than one ranged mob). Therefore, melee receive more damage compared to now when ranged damage increases. Thus, it is correct to say that encounters become more dangerous than now for melee with the proposed change.

This was already refuted.

I think encounters with multiple ranged mobs become almost unplayable (you could die immediately when there are 2 or 3 ranged mobs). If you want to make melee and ranged damage from mobs the same, then the damage per attack must be considerably lower, but that could be quite boring in fights without ranged mobs. Another option would be to scale ranged damage based on the number of active ranged mobs, but that seems a bit artificial.

What scenario are you afraid of where this hurts melee even more?

My premise: Ranged characters as well as melee characters are now similarly/~equally vulnerable when in LOS of mobs and take the same/similar damage. When the ogre in my example puts away its bow to melee the character that closed the distance it is equally dangerous as it was, not more dangerous. If the character does not close the distance it still hits like a truck with its bow.

The only way it is more dangerous for melee is if the melee literally choose to be ineffective by staying at range, but still in LOS, and in that case its a L2P melee issue and not a DPS parity issue. This would be just as bad as the inquis standing in the hallway while not firing.

The theory that ranged character is not subject to melee damage so therefore takes less damage is incorrect in a scenario where mob ranged DPS and mob melee DPS have parity. Its only correct now due to lobbying in the past by DDO Forumites to reduce mob ranged damage, resulting in the ranged character defensive advantage the same DDO forumites now complain about when demanding ranged nerfs.

Multiple ranged mobs puts even more emphasis on CC, positioning, LOS, building AC/defenses etc... People not wiling to use the tools available have zero weight in any discussion regarding "game balance" as "I cant be bothered to (insert game play action here)" should never be the reason why everyone elses builds should be nerfed.

[Forzah]

This was already refuted.

Citation please.

What scenario are you afraid of where this hurts melee even more?

My premise: The only way it is more dangerous for melee is if the melee literally choose to be ineffective by staying at range, and in that case its a L2P melee issue and not a DPS parity issue. When the ogre in my example puts away its bow to melee the character that closed the distance it is equally dangerous as it was, not more dangerous.

If the melee takes at least one ranged hit, the total damage taken by the melee is higher than now. So, more dangerous. The situation is even worse when fighting while there are multiple ranged mobs.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Citation please.

I have a quote that shows it was already refuted. Lemme check on the forums for it.

Edit: Found it!

This was already refuted.

[Forzah]

I have a quote that shows it was already refuted. Lemme check on the forums for it.

Edit: Found it!

Haha

[HungarianRhapsody]

Percentage wise melee mobs have more damage than players do. They can one shot kill at times, and 2-3 shot kills are pretty common. This is already a thing in DDO, not some theory never seen in practice.

Its only those who are too fixated on the numbers while fully ignoring the actual end results who disbelieve this.



Which is STILL false, as a ranged mob can damage you from across the room, nullifying the advantage of putting distance between you.

Example. Running EVON1 on high reaper. ForumDDO® gripes often that having to get into melee range is a disadvantage, but when the inquis (todays "this new thing" which needs a nerf because "its ranged") starts shooting from the end of the hallway, the trolls and ogres pull out bows and hit like a truck, just like they hit like trucks in melee. This nullifies the ranged advantage for players. The ranged player no longer gets to plink away from a relatively safe distance.

Meanwhile in other news, its no different for the melee, as that encounter was dangerous to them from go (not more dangerous as you claim).

What scenario are you afraid of where this hurts melee even more? The only way it is more dangerous for melee is if the melee literally choose to be ineffective by staying at range, and in that case its a L2P melee issue and not a DPS parity issue.

[Chai]

Citation please.

You literally quoted the post.

If the melee takes at least one ranged hit, the total damage taken by the melee is higher than now. So, more dangerous. The situation is even worse when fighting while there are multiple ranged mobs.

Not true. You are too fixated on what the graphic of the mob avatar looks like when the damage is dealt (pulling back a bow and firing vs swinging a melee weapon).

The reality is: If the mob can damage both melee and ranged when in LOS (but no "melee range requirement") then both take the same/similar damage.

If you continue to support mob ranged being less than mob melee, then complain about ranged advantage due to not having to deal with incoming damage, you figuratively made the bed you are now laying in. You are asking the company to solve the issue you helped create by nerfing everyone elses builds (which does not address the current defensive advantage of ranged characters).

AKA if you complain about something to lobby in something else and the solution you support doesnt address the thing you complained about, this logical contradiction can (and should) be pointed out. This already happened with shiradi, fury-shotters, and warlocks. You guys complained about the ranged defensive advantages and then advocated hand over fist for nerfs which did absolutely nothing to address the ranged defensive advantage.

[Tilomere]

My not optimized sorc was doing around 500 on regular hits on not helpless mobs with chain lightening in r1 around level 15, that's enough to one shot the majority of mobs in that range. I could show the maths dont want to to work for the forums.

It is most certainly not the player, it is the build. Of course, there are differences of skill, but the disparities in builds are huge.

A non-dragonborn non-sharn geared but otherwise optimized level 15 sorc hits for ~1500 in elite (1200 or so in R1) regular hits without metas on ball/chain lightning and on meta lightning SLA after soundburst to keep the mobs in a tight group. This was from doing tiefling racials early when they released it. The optimized Sharn set especially on a dragonborn should counter the helpless damage nerf.



I haven't quite figured out how to achieve the same trick with an 11 base damage quarterstaff at level 15. The point of the game is fun though, so I did most of my racials on a wide range of things. Paladin and THF are out of favor, but I liked it the most so played it the most.

Some of it is the players. Some players create substantially more powerful and optimized gear sets and builds, and as such find melee to be suitably powerful for reaper heroics to have fun. If my sorc is 2.4x as powerful as your sorc, then chances are my melee is 2.4x as powerful as your melee. With that much additional power, I didn't find reaper racials on a melee that disadvantageous.

Reaper isn't designed for people that bring characters in at 40% power. Of course they fail. They are supposed to.

[Forzah]

You literally quoted the post.



Not true. You are too fixated on what the graphic of the mob avatar looks like when the damage is dealt (pulling back a bow and firing vs swinging a melee weapon).

The reality is: If the mob can damage both melee and ranged when in LOS (but no "melee range requirement") then both take the same/similar damage.

If you continue to support mob ranged being less than mob melee, then complain about ranged advantage due to not having to deal with incoming damage, you figuratively made the bed you are now laying in. You are asking the company to solve the issue you helped create by nerfing everyone elses builds (which does not address the current defensive advantage of ranged characters).

AKA if you complain about something to lobby in something else and the solution you support doesnt address the thing you complained about, this logical contradiction can (and should) be pointed out. This already happened with shiradi, fury-shotters, and warlocks. You guys complained about the ranged defensive advantages and then advocated hand over fist for nerfs which did absolutely nothing to address the ranged defensive advantage.

This was already refuted.

[BigErkyKid]

If my sorc is 2.4x as powerful as your sorc, then chances are my melee is 2.4x as powerful as your melee.

You do understand what balance means, right? Suppose I am gimp and you are Uber, my gimp sorc is still twice as powerful as my gimp melee. Your sorc is far more powerful than your melee.

Now take your melee in a group of players as skilled as you give them meta builds. Now you are useless, congrats.

Also, claiming that building an heroic sorc is a matter of skill is very debatable, exactly what secret or clever combination is there? How are you optimizing beyond the masses?

[Tilomere]

You do understand what balance means, right? Suppose I am gimp and you are Uber, my gimp sorc is still twice as powerful as my gimp melee. Your sorc is far more powerful than your melee.

Now take your melee in a group of players as skilled as you give them meta builds. Now you are useless, congrats.

Also, claiming that building an heroic sorc is a matter of skill is very debatable, exactly what secret or clever combination is there? How are you optimizing beyond the masses?

You are asking for more power so that a melee is fun, because you think a sorc nuking for 500 in reaper 1 at level 15 although not optimized is near the cap of heroic power. I'm just showing you that there is far more power already available than you realize or have achieved. Maybe your view on class balance will change as you achieve higher levels of total power across different classes and play styles.

We both play on Cannith, the default server, so there are almost no group of players on meta builds with top gear. Just because a class is more powerful for a given task doesn't mean that a different class is suddenly useless and doesn't have enough power available already to complete a task. A veteran pugging Cannith on any build is generally the most powerful character in the group.

You also find hitting for 500 AoE in R1 OP on a sorc. A WWA at 2.5 hits or so on a kensai caster will hit harder than that, with a cleave and great cleave hitting for a bit less, but one could in theory chain these together to get around the dps of your sorc chaining ball and chain lightning.


This is also pre-sharn.

My not optimized sorc was doing around 500 on regular hits on not helpless mobs with chain lightening in r1 around level 15, that's enough to one shot the majority of mobs in that range.

The non-champ mobs at level 15 here have 1.8k hp solo, so a 500 damage nuke isn't that impressive. There is only 1 level 15 dungeon with mobs that weak, Litany. But lets say it was overpowered and impressive. I could make a just as impressive and overpowered kensai.

Can I make a more powerful sorc. Yes. Do I make a more powerful sorc? No, except to test exactly how broken a Sorc one can make, because I can already make melee that are powerful enough that I like to play more. And since veterans generally only make 500 damage R1 sorcs, yea, that kensai is going to be fine in any group.

[Blastyswa]

Still quite a lot of players doing racial TRs; some are less intense players, others are rolling alts. The general advise you get from those PL oriented is to roll an OP build and plow through PLs. Warlock remains a favorite, but INQ is getting adepts, and sorc remains massively OP (wink).

Having suffered through a few TRs myself recently I can attest to the obvious: there is absolutely no point in doing them in a melee character. You will be slower, prone to failure when soloing, and you will contribute far less in groups. I knew about this, but from the perspective of someone who stubbornly stays at cap, and lacked recent practical experience.

The disparity of power is so large that one wonders if some class / archetype options are just new player traps.

Is SSG aware of this? Are there any plans to address this situation? When discussing balance, we are often told that what matters are “real” gameplay situations. We have devs on the record saying that elite/low reaper is where the majority of the playerbase is at. Well, it is an utterly broken situation.

Probably some of you will just be surprised than anyone is not fully aware of this, since is not new. Well, excuse me,l for being somehow out of touch. But just because it’s been like this for a while it does not mean that we should roll over and take it.

I'm currently playing a pure wizard tiefling in heroics, my first inquisitor build ever, having unlocked it with favor last life. I am having a blast, clearing any quest I attempt on r1-r3 or so just fine, and leading the kills (or close to it) when grouped with sorcerers, other inquisitors, or warlocks.

Last life I played a favored soul/rogue/barbarian quarterstaff build. I had a blast with it, clearing any quest I attempted on r1-r3 or so just fine, and leading the kills (or close to it) when grouped with sorcerers, inquisitors, or warlocks.

The life before that I played an 18/2 sorcerer/barbarian. I had a blast with it, clearing any quest I attempted on r1-r3 or so just fine, and leading the kills (or close to it) when grouped with other sorcerers, inquisitors, or warlocks.

My first life when racial reincarnation came out was a monk/rogue/paladin quarterstaff build. I had a blast with it, clearing any quest I attempted on r1-r3 or so just fine, and leading the kills (or close to it) when grouped with sorcerers or warlocks.


I am sorry to hear you aren't having fun playing melees. I would recommend trying to use CC (Crowd Control) on reapers, they can definitely be scary if you try and attack them head on.

If you feel you're going slower, just remember the game isn't a race. And if it was, you've already lost by quite a bit to other people who thought the game was a race.

If you feel you're prone to failure when going solo, I'd recommend bringing hires, dropping the difficulty, or re-gearing/re-strategizing. No one whose opinion is worth anything is going to care that you're taking your time on a quest on r1 or elite, or even lower.

If you feel you're contributing less in a group, think about what you're bringing to the team, and what your goal (and the group's goal) is. If the goal is to complete a quest in the shortest amount of time possible, then maybe that sorcerer with the fireballs is making that happen more as an individual than you are. If you aren't having fun because you don't feel like you're pulling your weight, or because someone in the party is being rude about the same issue, you can always just drop the group and run quests solo, or with a like-minded group. If your way to have fun in DDO is to attempt to clear quests in the shortest amount of time, or to have every single past-life, or to always lead the kills in the xp report, then maybe you want to go with a build that is more suited towards that, and that's fine. I will continue to have fun with my melee builds.

[BigErkyKid]

You are asking for more power so that a melee is fun,

Wrong. I am just saying that it is not in the same ballpark as other options out there.

Can I make a more powerful sorc. Yes.Do I make a more powerful sorc? No, except to test exactly how broken a Sorc one can make, because I can already make melee that are powerful enough that I like to play more. And since veterans generally only make 500 damage R1 sorcs, yea, that kensai is going to be fine in any group.

I am going to leave the bragging and attempts to diminish my skill as a player / builder aside; there is absolutely no secret behind building an heroic sorc, no matter how much you attempt to make it look like you are doing something out of the ordinary and I am clueless about something.

If your only point is that you are so much better at building, and have some much more grind, than the vast majority of your server, and hence can play UP and beat them, I have nothing for you. Game balance is not about that, I hope you can understand it.

[BigErkyKid]

Last life I played a favored soul/rogue/barbarian quarterstaff build. I had a blast with it, clearing any quest I attempted on r1-r3 or so just fine, and leading the kills (or close to it) when grouped with sorcerers, inquisitors, or warlocks.

Perhaps you should group with better players?

If your point, condescending comments aside, is that you are so much better than the rest of players, and hence can outkill them even on arguably flavor builds, I guess that more power to you. That does not change the fact that some classes are miles ahead than others in heroics. Same skill, same player, far better results.

[OrodelaSol]

Enemies have hacked the forums! all mobs have accessed our builds and are now splashing 2 levels of monk or rogue and grinding out dreaming dark on casual for pale lavenders! Champs come equipped with the same PLUS silver flame amulets, jeweled cloaks and greater harper pins. Bosses!? all INQUISITORS!!! oh the horror...

[Hawkwier]

The power disparities aren't limited to the TR wheel.

Bottom line is ranged dps whether from projectiles or spells is out of balance with melee dps in context of a natural trade off between defensive and offensive capacity.

The balance between extra defence (not getting hit by melee) and extra offence is currently broken.

Whether by nerf or buff it is the dps that needs mended though. Not defence.

The concept of ranged having better defence is sensible. We're good with that idea.

What isn't sensible is to also give them better offence.

Dancing on the head of a pin over ranged defensive advantage misses the simple fact the imbalance actually lies in the current offensive advantage also currently enjoyed. That needs to be removed. In fact reversed. Shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp really.

[MaeveTuohy]

Last life I played a favored soul/rogue/barbarian quarterstaff build. I had a blast with it, clearing any quest I attempted on r1-r3 or so just fine, and leading the kills (or close to it) when grouped with sorcerers, inquisitors, or warlocks.

Thinking to go back and play a q/staff build again. Is this build posted anywhere? Sounds intriguing.