Single weapon fighting and Board revamp

[Kutalp]

Hi there. I wish everyone a good day.

My suggestion is simple and nowhere overpowered.

The possiblity of Sword and board style for small shields and bucklers for all classes without having to pick Bard class for only grabbing Swashbuckler 3 enhancement. (Runearms and Orbs can allready use the style free. Why should not other classes be able to enjoythe shield bonuses ?)

Putting a restriction of Single weapon and shield style fighting to let the character use the style free with shield and medium sized weapon but not with any type of shield bashes to ensure the virtual focus at main hand weapon and the style.

Focus here is the Single weapon style and to let Main hand weapon get the SWF bonus while wielding small sized shields. Not Heavier shields and their bonuses; Not the shield bashes.

Right now, wielding any type of shield ,automatically, cancels Single weapon style although it is still Single weapon fighting while holding a shield without level 3 Swashbuckler. This can be as new martial feat that requires Single weapon fighting and Shield feats to get unlocked with its own bonuses and restrictions. for non Swashbuckler bard splashed Martial classes.


Thank you.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlYCxbBZUCY

[Indubitably]

Eh, it's called single weapon fighting for a reason, and they already have a line of feats for weapon and shield. Your not really meant to really combine the weapon lines.

I think its fantastic that you can, but it requires a very dedicated solution, which makes sense. For starters, your looking at a number of feats that most classes wouldn't be able to achieve... so there is almost a fighter requirement, just like the bard requirement... fighting single weapon style with a shield in your offhand would require a LOT of finesse, which is characteristic of the bard, so that makes sense.

Its a good reason to promote multiclassing, and if its a style your interested in you can fiddle around with a build that works. Having them both intrinsically works potentially creates an overpowered setup, and also takes away from the bards uniqueness and advantages.

I love the sword and board style, and when I roll melee it's probably my most common one. But I think it would become a clear winner if it worked the way you wanted it to. And it would also frustrate a LOT of non fighter builds who wanted to go sword and board, but clearly couldnt complete the necessary setup to achieve the full potential of the style.

A paladin would have to choose between these...
Precision/PA, Improved Critical, Knights Training/exotic weapon/swords to plowshares, 3 shield feats, 3 SWF feats (4?), Force of personality, Cleave & Greater Cleave (depending)
It's possible, more so for a Human... but leaves VERY little customisation choice.

[droid327]

The problem isnt that you cant S&B with SWF. The problem is that S&B by itself is not competitive with SWF.

It shouldnt match point-for-point with DPS, obviously - but there just isnt much need for the greater defense you would logically get with S&B. It doesnt really have a role in the game.

They could take away the 1s CD on shield bash, that'd be a start, anyway - especially for Vanguard builds. But they need to put more tankiness in the S&B line - maybe a Greater Shield Mastery feat that gives you a stacking 20% HP and 20 PRR/MRR.

[Kutalp]

Eh, it's called single weapon fighting for a reason, and they already have a line of feats for weapon and shield. Your not really meant to really combine the weapon lines.

I think its fantastic that you can, but it requires a very dedicated solution, which makes sense. For starters, your looking at a number of feats that most classes wouldn't be able to achieve... so there is almost a fighter requirement, just like the bard requirement... fighting single weapon style with a shield in your offhand would require a LOT of finesse, which is characteristic of the bard, so that makes sense.

Its a good reason to promote multiclassing, and if its a style your interested in you can fiddle around with a build that works. Having them both intrinsically works potentially creates an overpowered setup, and also takes away from the bards uniqueness and advantages.

I love the sword and board style, and when I roll melee it's probably my most common one. But I think it would become a clear winner if it worked the way you wanted it to. And it would also frustrate a LOT of non fighter builds who wanted to go sword and board, but clearly couldnt complete the necessary setup to achieve the full potential of the style.

A paladin would have to choose between these...
Precision/PA, Improved Critical, Knights Training/exotic weapon/swords to plowshares, 3 shield feats, 3 SWF feats (4?), Force of personality, Cleave & Greater Cleave (depending)
It's possible, more so for a Human... but leaves VERY little customisation choice.

The problem isnt that you cant S&B with SWF. The problem is that S&B by itself is not competitive with SWF.

It shouldnt match point-for-point with DPS, obviously - but there just isnt much need for the greater defense you would logically get with S&B. It doesnt really have a role in the game.

They could take away the 1s CD on shield bash, that'd be a start, anyway - especially for Vanguard builds. But they need to put more tankiness in the S&B line - maybe a Greater Shield Mastery feat that gives you a stacking 20% HP and 20 PRR/MRR.

Thank you very much for the valuable input friends. Nice catch there.

[Indubitably]

Thank you very much for the valuable input friends. Nice catch there.

I should be more constructive.
I feel, as droid pointed out, that the S&B style should be able to stand up by it'self, without the need to try and splice in a second weapon line or use a funky fighter/bard setup.
Its great you can get some unique blending in... but the S&B style should be competitive by it'self.

If it's under performing, then the 3 feats should be improved to match, instead of trying to make S&B people take 6 feats instead of 3.
I agree, S&B damage shouldn't be up there with the other style... but it should be close. And the defenisve benefits atm are a bit of a yawn.

I've not thought about the maths enough to make a fair suggestion as to how to improve it... but more PRR/MRR would be the bland solution to it, and the removal of the 1second cooldown on bash would be a clear dps improvement with little effort.

I would REALLY like to see one of the shield feats also give+1[w] to your shield, much like point blank shot... and maybe even give increase crit range and/or multiplier to your shield (like knights training, swords to plowshares).
Some of the current S&B feats are very underwhelming to take... so this would go a long way to promoting more people to roll a tank playstyle.

[unbongwah]

FYI SWF and Shield Mastery stacking was an unintended consequence of Swashbuckling. The original intent had been that you were supposed to only use one feat line. Fortunately the devs chose not to nerf it.

S&B has always been the "tank-y" melee style; the problem is the defensive benefits don't outweigh the DPS loss for most players. Another casualty of the never ending power creep.

[psykopeta]

FYI SWF and Shield Mastery stacking was an unintended consequence of Swashbuckling. The original intent had been that you were supposed to only use one feat line. Fortunately the devs chose not to nerf it.

S&B has always been the "tank-y" melee style; the problem is the defensive benefits don't outweigh the DPS loss for most players. Another casualty of the never ending power creep.

Butbutbut vanguards get attack speed and goodies with shield!

I always liked the s&b and swf animation/style/aspect, played em before the swf thingie more times that after the line creation xD

Pretty sure it wouldn't be op mixing both, would be broken tho, suddenly the stone could be able to do some dps and have ways to get more aggeo too, more like wow tanking used to be, a mix of taunt and hate xD

[Grailhawk]

IMO Weapon & Shield Style should be more defense and less offence than the other melee 3 styles (THF, TWF, SWF). I would like to see shields add more avoidance than what they already do so what I would do is add a new Dodge Chance call Shield Deflection the requires a shield to be equipped to be active and then have the 3 shield feat add 15% deflection per feat.

Alternatively I would rebalance all combat styles at once you can see my idea of that in my sig though.

[Kutalp]

Humbled by the fellow veteran players' comments; seasoned with years of practical experience.

I really hope dear developing team will be able to add some curve to the existing basic class and basic feat abilites to support casual/starter and permadeath play styles. I am pretty sure this will attract and hold more players.

Single weapon and 'small' boarding would be a very flexible choice for adventuring classes in general; if not a hardcore choice for focused builds such as a core tank or agressive vanguard style shield charging fighter.

Another random and most probably mad idea pops at mind is the game seems to take a route to universal trees. This somehow seems much easier to handle compared to revamping the entire mechanics for old classes (?) for developers.

Out of joke from some other random threads; may e we will see new universal trees for Universal DC for casters. Universal trapping and skillng tree with stealth. Universal Warrior class with optimal choices for weapons and builds at their unique trees in the future; instead of sticking to a class.


...Just random thoughts if you beg pardon of the vilage fool.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk7cjjLYlpA

Have a nice time.

[Indubitably]

IMO Weapon & Shield Style should be more defense and less offence than the other melee 3 styles (THF, TWF, SWF). I would like to see shields add more avoidance than what they already do so what I would do is add a new Dodge Chance call Shield Deflection the requires a shield to be equipped to be active and then have the 3 shield feat add 15% deflection per feat.

There is already a feat called Shield deflection,
Understandable you might not know as no one in the history of DDO has ever taken it.
(I'm kidding, you probably know, I'm just taking a stab at how unpopular and worthless this feat is).

My suggestion would be to make this optional shield feat mroe worthwhile... and a physical component to it's alreayd magical component, and add a smaller bonus for when not blocking.

E.G. Based on size of shield equipped...
You receive 10/15/20/25 % chance to ignore elemental damage while actively blocking. You receive Half bonus while not blocking.
You receive 6/9/12/15 % chance to ignore a physical attack while actively blocking. You receive half bonus while not blocking.

Considering no one actively blocks...ever... this might give some incentive (probably not) to block, but still useful otherwise... Similar to wind through the trees.

Finally, Add the 4 shield mastery feats to the list of feats that count for epic defensive fighting.... its rediculous that they don't count!

[Kutalp]

FYI SWF and Shield Mastery stacking was an unintended consequence of Swashbuckling. The original intent had been that you were supposed to only use one feat line. Fortunately the devs chose not to nerf it.

S&B has always been the "tank-y" melee style; the problem is the defensive benefits don't outweigh the DPS loss for most players. Another casualty of the never ending power creep.

I agree with your power creep stattement, anyhow the real power creep is at several class/trees with extreme speed, double shot and absurd sclaing values for spell damage which is apllied to aoe effects aswell.

Melee classes fall back alot at movement, required hitpoints, prr/mrr and damage reduction for survival. (Items combined with spell effects make much better tanks then physical warrior classes. Which should be just the opposite.


Talk about Kensei and melee power ad epic destinies. Allright, everyone knows the real deal is sword and board now. Not only for reaper aswell. DPS is not enough against special attacks and effects dealt from ordinary champions. Yes thre re items and sets and all but it really falls back when the passive effects from basic class skills, feats and enhanements cant compete as the base of any build which would also need to scale class level.



Simple example: How would be mele classes be competitive ?


Fear immunity, level drain immunity (or chance scaling with level), prr/mrr(sacales with level), passive doubleshot-hit chance(sacling with level), deflect arrows, but also short cooldown cone attack that hits all targets without a miss and deals damage based on melee power and scales with character level. Add some extra damage block, armor class and elemental resistance)all three scaling with level). (There is allready specific trees that has all of these Ill leave it to you to guess. No, hillariously those trees are not Fighter or Barbarian trees). All mele classes should be this way including hitpoints scaling with level.

Simply there should be complete warrior classes based on more durability and enough burst damage at close quarters. (Casters clearly has it. Ranged also has competitive amounts-Crossbow ranged is equal to casters now)


Ranged advantage to burst for long cooldown but ability to hit and run. Spell advantage to burst aoe but insanely weak defenses (casters have the best defense right now which is just the opposite). Ranged and casters are more durable thanks to their saves and distance advantage also blindness, blurr, ghostly and dodge-reflex effects.

Melees dont even have double the amount of passive hitpoints a regular caster have. (The base dice for hitpoints is seriously outdated compared to item, set, enhancement effects) The real deal is Eldricht and Artificer and Druid. None is Warrior (Fighter, Barbarian) Paladin and Tempest has twists to compete supported by gear since their core aids the survivalibility more.



It was balanced when heroic feats and class specialities were new back before 2010 may be. Not anymore. Somethings need to be done if the game doesnt wish to loose more blood. Good amount of players used to enjoy melee back in the day. It is just a pain now.



My fighter and barbarian gets chewed and spit by crossbow ranged toons. Meanwhile my casters spit on crosbow builds. Only two enhancement trees which are hillariously not class based chew, spit and then sweep the floor with all other builds.

[lyrecono]

I agree with your power creep stattement, anyhow the real power creep is at several class/trees with extreme speed, double shot and absurd sclaing values for spell damage which is apllied to aoe effects aswell.

Melee classes fall back alot at movement, required hitpoints, prr/mrr and damage reduction for survival. (Items combined with spell effects make much better tanks then physical warrior classes. Which should be just the opposite.


Talk about Kensei and melee power ad epic destinies. Allright, everyone knows the real deal is sword and board now. Not only for reaper aswell. DPS is not enough against special attacks and effects dealt from ordinary champions. Yes thre re items and sets and all but it really falls back when the passive effects from basic class skills, feats and enhanements cant compete as the base of any build which would also need to scale class level.



Simple example: How would be mele classes be competitive ?


Fear immunity, level drain immunity (or chance scaling with level), prr/mrr(sacales with level), passive doubleshot-hit chance(sacling with level), deflect arrows, but also short cooldown cone attack that hits all targets without a miss and deals damage based on melee power and scales with character level. Add some extra damage block, armor class and elemental resistance)all three scaling with level). (There is allready specific trees that has all of these Ill leave it to you to guess. No, hillariously those trees are not Fighter or Barbarian trees). All mele classes should be this way including hitpoints scaling with level.

Simply there should be complete warrior classes based on more durability and enough burst damage at close quarters. (Casters clearly has it. Ranged also has competitive amounts-Crossbow ranged is equal to casters now)


Ranged advantage to burst for long cooldown but ability to hit and run. Spell advantage to burst aoe but insanely weak defenses (casters have the best defense right now which is just the opposite). Ranged and casters are more durable thanks to their saves and distance advantage also blindness, blurr, ghostly and dodge-reflex effects.

Melees dont even have double the amount of passive hitpoints a regular caster have. (The base dice for hitpoints is seriously outdated compared to item, set, enhancement effects) The real deal is Eldricht and Artificer and Druid. None is Warrior (Fighter, Barbarian) Paladin and Tempest has twists to compete supported by gear since their core aids the survivalibility more.



It was balanced when heroic feats and class specialities were new back before 2010 may be. Not anymore. Somethings need to be done if the game doesnt wish to loose more blood. Good amount of players used to enjoy melee back in the day. It is just a pain now.



My fighter and barbarian gets chewed and spit by crossbow ranged toons. Meanwhile my casters spit on crosbow builds. Only two enhancement trees which are hillariously not class based chew, spit and then sweep the floor with all other builds.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kutalp again.


Good arguments, wasted on deaf ears, you need to convince the devs, not us.

An example,
Fury of the wild, when introduced, was at least on paper a 2hf melee tree, a barb thing.
It saw widespread use for a great many years.....by ranged toons.
The fast attack speed created more vorpals to charge it.
2hf feats don't generate extra crits....
While lots of 2hf melees (and mostly 2hf barbs) used LD.
It has fallen on deaf ears for half a decade?
And it's still pathetic today?
It's not a priority for the devs.

Ask for a paid universal horse mounted x-bow tree and see how fast one gets introduced.

Ranged and casting build options sell better then melee build options i guess.

The poorly designed ai and ballance issues drove people to builds that can handdle the content, so devs had an easier time selling mana pots.

Untill this becommes a loud enough voice, the devs will keep screwing over melee.

[C-Dog]

Eh, it's called single weapon fighting for a reason, and they already have a line of feats for weapon and shield. Your not really meant to really combine the weapon lines.

Yeah, this. It kept hurting when I read "Single Weapon and Shield" - it sounded like "Two-Hand Fighting with one hand on each of two different weapons".

I know what you're saying, but it's diff for a reason.

[Kutalp]

Bard (!) can use single weapon with uber multiplier and a shield. Now beat that.

But a Fighter cannnot...Lol.