Suggestions for the second hardcore league: limiting metagaming

[BigErkyKid]

Dear devs and fellow players,


I think it is quite clear that the first hardcore league has been, so far, a massive success. The server is buzzing with activity at levels unseen in regular servers.

However, some of us do not fully approve the current design of the league. The League is marketed as a test of skill, in a competitive environment. For that reason, there have been modifications to the standard gameplay in order to ensure equal footing among players (no PLs or gear), and limit extreme strategies that lower the challenge (level lock outs). Are those modifications enough to guarantee a competitive and challenging environment? For some of us, the answer is a rotund no.

Currently, the league presents 3 distinct goals: i) favor thresholds based cosmetics, ii) reaper points thresholds based cosmetics, iii) cosmetic reward at level 20, iii-iv) leaderboards for i) and ii). The issue is that given: a) store purchases, ii) different quest difficulty, iii) insufficient over level penalties, meta gaming the league's objectives can give an enormous advantage in terms of both achieving the reward thresholds and claiming a position on the leaderboards. I will now detail some the current ''meta'' possibilities; some are more boring than others, and there might be far more effective strategies I am not aware it. The point is that they disrupt the challenge and competitive elements of the league. Gaming the system becomes as important, if not more, than playing the game with skill.

Dollar Meta for Reaper:
Experience pots are not disabled for reaper XP. A player running a sovereign XP pot (50% boost) has a massive advantage over someone not willing to pay dollars for this advantage. This translates into easier access to the cosmetics (fewer quests to be played, less of a chance of dying), and massive advantage in terms of remaining in the leaderboard (playing far fewer quests for the same score).

Time Sink Meta for Reaper:
It is very well known that some quests are far harder than others. This is often correlated with the age of the quest, since as newer quests are designed for the current levels of power creep. As a result, choosing easier quests gives an advantage, contrary to the challenge spirit of the League. Given that one can avoid over level lock outs in reaper, it is possible to choose an optimal (read, the easiest) level and repeatedly play easy quest to rack up reaper XP. This cannot be done for favor XP, but it would be, in principle, possible to combine this with over level favor farming (the next strategy). Note that it is currently possible to time grind reaper XP in the easiest possible quest, since contrary to favor you don't need a variety of quests (viability depends on finer details).

Dollar Meta for lvl20
This is easy, multiple ways to pay to advance to 20. From gold rolling (this has already been done), to running sovereign pots for super fast XP (remember these are non-TR xp level curves).

Overlevel Meta for Favor
The typical favor clean up, except this time you are 4 levels above the quest. While not as trivially easy as going to level cap and obliterating heroic quests, this remains significantly easier than playing the quests at their designed level. Note that this becomes not only optimal, but also necessary, if you are chasing favor rewards. If you do not chase reaper XP, this can be combined with say normal leveling to 5, then clean up from then on (always play at over level limit).

Overall Dollars for Help
Significant advantages can be bought in the DDO store to aid in general questing. The obvious one would be store healing pots: https://ddowiki.com/page/Elixir_of_Healing
Specially at lower levels (and they are min level 1), these are massively overpowered 1 button to full healing. For blue bar characters, SP potions are also a massive advantage.

So, Erk, what would be a way to avoid some, if not all, of the issue you presented? I think that much more restrictive rules are needed to ensure the competitive element of the league:

• Pick a few iconic quests per level, with a variety not to favor one archetype over others (not all undead quests, etc.); only those quests can be played.
• Block over level questing.
• Permadeath.
• No bank, no store.
• XP stone to get to 30 and to level one destiny; this is not about the xp but about questing.
• Score given for each first completion, zero score afterwards.
• Score given according to level of quest and challenge level.

There could be some disagreement over the scoring system, but it would be impossible to farm or pay to win.

Thoughts?

[kned225]

I agree in theory, but i doubt finding ways to prevent players from using the store is high on their to-do list

[Anuulified]

I agree in theory, but i doubt finding ways to prevent players from using the store is high on their to-do list

That and a great way to make money to build more content later.

[erethizon]

I'd like to see them bring the hardcore mechanic over to the main servers. Specifically I mean this:

The rules would remain the same (i.e. the goals would be to get to 20, 1750 favor, 5000 favor, 100,000 Reaper experience, and 400,000 Reaper experience without dying), but it could be attempted each life and your character would not be deleted after failure, instead you would simply drop out of the contest.

The idea is that each time you TR (any kind of TR except ETR) you get the opportunity to try for the cosmetics once again. Your first death removes the ability to make any further progress that life. This would give each person a chance to try taking death seriously on their main character each time they go through the game.

Yes, you would be able to play with all your past lives and gear. If it's easy enough to program they could make it that entering a quest when more than 4 levels above base automatically drops you from the competition (this seems like a tricky one as there would need to be a warning so people know they are doing it). It wouldn't be as hardcore as the current server, but it also wouldn't take people from the normal servers and wouldn't make people waste their time playing with new characters that they are never going to use again.

I'm sure there will be plenty of naysayers to this idea, but figured it would throw it out to the developers. The main servers would also benefit from taking death more seriously. It has been so trivialized that people take ridiculous risks all the time and that is unfortunate. One of the advantages of the new server is people are playing more like real D&D where they value the life of their character.

[Renvar]

Give up on the "no store" option. It's not going to happen. If you are SSG which would you prefer:

If the average player spends $15 per month in the store (made up number. It doesn't matter) and there are 1 million players (made up number it doesn't matter) and half are VIP at $10 per month (made up, simple numbers) then that is $20 million per month in revenue (made up number).

If you open a new server that is VIP only and no store sales and it is really popular with your VIP and 40% of your customer base (80% of VIP) spend a considerable amount of time there and it convinces 10% of your non-VIP to sub just to get it, then the resulting math would be 600k VIP = $6 million per month in revenue but 500k of your customer base is not spending $15 per month anymore. So that is 500k x $15 = $7.5 million. Combined for $13.5 million a month. For a net loss of $6.5 million per month.

Yes all the numbers are made up. But no matter how you tweak the percentages, if the new server is popular, unless you get more revenue in new VIP subs than you lose in store revenue then the situation is a loser, and the more popular it is, the bigger a net loss it is. Given how cheap subs are, you can't afford to have your biggest spenders spending the majority of their time on a server where they can't spend money.

And you don't expend effort on a project for a negative ROI. That is bad business.

Most of the advantages you list are minor, though, from the store:

1) Gold Rolls. Don't earn you RXP or Favor. Getting to cap on gold rolls is crazy expensive and very unrewarding. A PL or two isn't making you that much stronger. The stuff you get from gold rolls isn't moving the needle either, for the most part, unless you get some extremely lucky tome rolls.

2) Mana pots. None of my casters are running out of mana. Current players with SLA and power creep on gear makes it easy to clear mobs. Mana pots are definitely nice, but since most deaths are from champs that sneak up on you or reapers or traps, mana doesn't solve much there.

3) Healing pots. I've died twice both times I was one shot or hit twice inside 1 second before a heal could even be contemplated. Healing pots are helpful but don't protect from lag death, stupidity, or most trap or champ deaths. Which account for 95% of all deaths i've heard of.

4) XP Pots. Don't help with favor. Leveling on a 1st lifer is stupid easy. You are constantly hard capped even if you are running on norm/hard without a pot on. Sure they help a little with reaper XP, but the difference is not as significant as you suggest. And, so far, death in reaper is way too common for it to matter.

Tomes would be helpful, but I've yet to hear of anyone dropping 4000-5000 DDO points on lots of tomes. On a 1st life character that can be gone in an instant anyways.

[LurkingVeteran]

Some adjustments could maybe be made, but if they were to remove the store, you can forget about ever opening this up to premium players. They have to make money somehow.

I'm also not sure HP pots are quite as good as you claim, they still have a cooldown right? Maybe one could put a min level on them. If you nerf them too much, everybody would just roll a Bladeforged instead though.

Even if you were to throw out HP pots entirely, the biggest danger in HC is still one-shots from certain traps, spells and champions/reapers. Melee, esp. the non-evasion non-shield kind, are at a significant disadvantage here as always. How do you kill a red name that one-shots you on a melee? I hope they look at the distribution of builds that get past level 10 and make balance changes accordingly.

[Renvar]

I'd like to see them bring the hardcore mechanic over to the main servers. Specifically I mean this:

The rules would remain the same (i.e. the goals would be to get to 20, 1750 favor, 5000 favor, 100,000 Reaper experience, and 400,000 Reaper experience without dying), but it could be attempted each life and your character would not be deleted after failure, instead you would simply drop out of the contest.

The idea is that each time you TR (any kind of TR except ETR) you get the opportunity to try for the cosmetics once again. Your first death removes the ability to make any further progress that life. This would give each person a chance to try taking death seriously on their main character each time they go through the game.

Yes, you would be able to play with all your past lives and gear. If it's easy enough to program they could make it that entering a quest when more than 4 levels above base automatically drops you from the competition (this seems like a tricky one as there would need to be a warning so people know they are doing it). It wouldn't be as hardcore as the current server, but it also wouldn't take people from the normal servers and wouldn't make people waste their time playing with new characters that they are never going to use again.

I'm sure there will be plenty of naysayers to this idea, but figured it would throw it out to the developers. The main servers would also benefit from taking death more seriously. It has been so trivialized that people take ridiculous risks all the time and that is unfortunate. One of the advantages of the new server is people are playing more like real D&D where they value the life of their character.

I'm not sure this is the solution, but I think that the current risk of the rules as they are is that people get tired of running the first 1-8 levels, especially if doing favor rewards. At some point it approaches groundhog day or people give up because they had a lot of time and effort invested into a character and don't want to completely start over with no gear and no progress. Especially on a 90 day server. If you are on limited play time, you reach a point where the clock is against you to earn the rewards. I've seen people "drop out" and return the live servers already. I'm still enjoying it, but if I'm not sure how many more times I'll start over honestly.

[Captain_Wizbang]

You said "it has been a big success" so why pick it apart?

SSG allocated X amount of man hours to create this. And for the parameters and spirit in which it was created it's as good as they could make it.

Sure, we can criticize it all day long. You, me and everyone else has ZERO clue as to how involved and to what extent resources were allocated to make this happen.

All too often we make threads like this (I have) because we were given a public platform to speak out. But this is one case that needs to applauded in every way possible and wait for the official feedback thread they no doubt will post.

[BigErkyKid]

Give up on the "no store" option. It's not going to happen.
And you don't expend effort on a project for a negative ROI. That is bad business.

Quite a jump there. From made up numbers, to negative ROI. I bet that they would still make money out of it with just VIP, and the manpower invested doesn't seem very significant (couple of cosmetics, a few tweaks). It is not only about the quick buck now. Selling out to p2win precisely in the League, IMHO, does actual harm to the brand.

Most of the advantages you list are minor, though, from the store:

I disagree, they are not minor by any means. For starters, the gold roll can buy you right away the reward; it doesn't get more p2win than that. You can either complete the marathon, or hire a taxi to the finish line. Either way, the trophy is the same.

We can argue all day along about the store, but it has absolutely no place in a competitive environment. Everyone knows that, it is all a matter of how acclimated to the p2win in this game we are, and how apologetic of the whole approach we want to be.

Besides defending or not the store, it is also quite clear that there are multiple avenues to ''gaming the system'' and sketched some.

I would like a 2nd league where those issues are ironed out. The live servers are already full of the whole grinding and gaming the system, and paying for advantages. Can't we have a real competitive environment in the leagues?

[Hafeal]

... don't fix it.

Despite some of your points, the numbers running in the teens or higher is miniscule. I don't see the points as a problem for the masses, I see them as nitpicking who finishes on top and criticizing HOW they got there under the guise that one manner is more than legit than another.

It takes very little to suffer even an inadverdant death. However you get to 20 or 5,000 favor, under the current system - I say

[SiliconScout]

Let's be honest the only way to get to "real" competitive and skill based league ranks is to have everyone play the same characters. They would need to build out x number of characters that balance based on Healing / Melee DPS / Ranged DPS / Traps / Tank and then lock those down so you had to follow the path.

I think we can all agree that is both not going to happen, and a colossally bad idea so we will never have the "true" competition. I don't know anyone myself who has gone VIP to play on that server but I do know several VIPs who have consciously chosen NOT to play on that server so I highly doubt there are thousands, even hundreds signing up a VIP sub for it. I am sure there are some but from my perspective most of the VIP money coming in over there was already coming in.

The store represents a profit centre to cover the cost of setting that server up, and there will have to have been a cost because it runs a fundamentally different set of rules to play by and they had to pay someone to build that out and test it.

They could, potentially, offer a limited selection in the store on the HC server though (assuming that's possible through their provider) to limit the P2W aspect. Say just limiting to quest packs and guest passes and gold seal hirelings but the idea that it's removal entirely would make the environment suddenly a level playing field is silly at best. Build and knowledge trumps store bought anything any day in this environment.

[BigErkyKid]

Build and knowledge trumps store bought anything any day in this environment.
The store represents a profit centre to cover the cost of setting that server up

If the store matters so little, people are less likely to spend money on it. You can't have it both ways: either it matters to gain an advantage, and hence people pay for something valuable (and break the competition), or it doesn't, and hence most people won't buy, and thus the ''it must be there for the server to survive'' argument goes away.

I think we can all agree that is both not going to happen, and a colossally bad idea so we will never have the "true" competition.

No offense, but I find that to be an extremely weak argument. We can't have true competition, hence why attempt to make it more competitive at all. It is along the lines of ''we can't have balance, so everything goes (INQ)''.

I am sad that they choose to create a competitive hardcore league and then cheapened it with the store. I also dislike that there are obvious ways to game the system. I am a lot harsher in my criticism of the store than of the limited rules for the rest. As I said, overall it is fun and I hope that they can tighten up the design for the next league. I can see why several iterations might be needed to get the rule set down; I cannot say the same for the store.

Giving up because ''it cannot be perfectly competitive'' and ''micro trans must happen everywhere or else the game implodes'' seems a defeatist attitude that won't help improve the league (or the game). The league would be a perfect opportunity to test things like balance, quest difficulty, and so on.

For all it matters, they lost 1 month sub from me. I now go on a monthly basis, and I would have subbed during my traveling period to pay a bit of the league, but won't do it until I get back. I wonder how many other players have lost interest due to the league due to these and similar issues.

[Sho-sa]

I'd like to see them bring the hardcore mechanic over to the main servers. Specifically I mean this:

The rules would remain the same (i.e. the goals would be to get to 20, 1750 favor, 5000 favor, 100,000 Reaper experience, and 400,000 Reaper experience without dying), but it could be attempted each life and your character would not be deleted after failure, instead you would simply drop out of the contest.

The idea is that each time you TR (any kind of TR except ETR) you get the opportunity to try for the cosmetics once again. Your first death removes the ability to make any further progress that life. This would give each person a chance to try taking death seriously on their main character each time they go through the game.

Yes, you would be able to play with all your past lives and gear. If it's easy enough to program they could make it that entering a quest when more than 4 levels above base automatically drops you from the competition (this seems like a tricky one as there would need to be a warning so people know they are doing it). It wouldn't be as hardcore as the current server, but it also wouldn't take people from the normal servers and wouldn't make people waste their time playing with new characters that they are never going to use again.

I'm sure there will be plenty of naysayers to this idea, but figured it would throw it out to the developers. The main servers would also benefit from taking death more seriously. It has been so trivialized that people take ridiculous risks all the time and that is unfortunate. One of the advantages of the new server is people are playing more like real D&D where they value the life of their character.

Oooo, I like a lot in here.... but make it with ZERO Reaper points enabled in the trees as players try for their goals.

Rewarded for trying new and different ways to play = good!

Punished for trying new and different ways to play = bad!

[BigErkyKid]

I'd like to see them bring the hardcore mechanic over to the main servers. Specifically I mean this:

The rules would remain the same (i.e. the goals would be to get to 20, 1750 favor, 5000 favor, 100,000 Reaper experience, and 400,000 Reaper experience without dying), but it could be attempted each life and your character would not be deleted after failure, instead you would simply drop out of the contest.

The idea is that each time you TR (any kind of TR except ETR) you get the opportunity to try for the cosmetics once again. Your first death removes the ability to make any further progress that life. This would give each person a chance to try taking death seriously on their main character each time they go through the game.

Yes, you would be able to play with all your past lives and gear. If it's easy enough to program they could make it that entering a quest when more than 4 levels above base automatically drops you from the competition (this seems like a tricky one as there would need to be a warning so people know they are doing it). It wouldn't be as hardcore as the current server, but it also wouldn't take people from the normal servers and wouldn't make people waste their time playing with new characters that they are never going to use again.

I'm sure there will be plenty of naysayers to this idea, but figured it would throw it out to the developers. The main servers would also benefit from taking death more seriously. It has been so trivialized that people take ridiculous risks all the time and that is unfortunate. One of the advantages of the new server is people are playing more like real D&D where they value the life of their character.

+1

Give cosmetics, not PLs... :P

[Fivetigers33]

For all it matters, they lost 1 month sub from me. I now go on a monthly basis, and I would have subbed during my traveling period to pay a bit of the league, but won't do it until I get back. I wonder how many other players have lost interest due to the league due to these and similar issues.

The Hardcore League has been a blast so far, and I wasn't even planning on participating when I first heard about it. I'd highly recommend trying it out, it's literally the most fun I've had on DDO in years. Just try not to look at it as a competition, and instead look at the hardcore league as rewards you are personally working towards. Everyone else on the server is there to help you get to your goal, and you are there to help them as well. Yes the store does provide some advantages (mostly in rxp accumulation), but everyone gets the same rewards for all the different milestones, it doesn't matter who gets there first.

[BigErkyKid]

The Hardcore League has been a blast so far, and I wasn't even planning on participating when I first heard about it. I'd highly recommend trying it out, it's literally the most fun I've had on DDO in years. Just try not to look at it as a competition, and instead look at the hardcore league as rewards you are personally working towards. Everyone else on the server is there to help you get to your goal, and you are there to help them as well. Yes the store does provide some advantages (mostly in rxp accumulation), but everyone gets the same rewards for all the different milestones, it doesn't matter who gets there first.

I do not doubt it. This is a suggestions thread for the 2nd league; I hope they can correct some of the current issues. I will certainly try it out, was even planning on getting to 20 (if I can), on a war forged rogue pew pew.

I like the competitive element, though, and I would be lying if I said that my desire to participate has not diminished because it really isn't a well designed competitive league.

Hence the thread. I am sad though to see that some of the people I know wanted it to be more competitive have given up on the project (come and give your suggestions, they might listen).

[Fivetigers33]

I do agree if the devs intended for the Hardcore League to be an actual competition, the store should have been completely disabled. But SSG needs to make money, so I see why it wasn't.

[mikarddo]

Most of all I hope the experiment here might lead them to both wanting and being able to consolidate everyone on one server to give us a larger pool of people to raid (and quest) with.

[Renvar]

Quite a jump there. From made up numbers, to negative ROI. I bet that they would still make money out of it with just VIP, and the manpower invested doesn't seem very significant (couple of cosmetics, a few tweaks). It is not only about the quick buck now. Selling out to p2win precisely in the League, IMHO, does actual harm to the brand.

The math doesn't work unless you think that the average spend of a VIP (beyond their subscription) is less than $10 a month AND the number of subs they add will be substantial.

If you think the average spend of a VIP is $10 per month, they need to double the number of VIP's they currently have just to break even with having done nothing at all. If they have 4,000 VIP, they would need to get 4,000 more by this. I think it is a huge success, but they aren't doubling their subscriber base with it.

If you think the average spend of a VIP is $5 per month beyond the sub (so one $60 DDO Points pack per year, which we know is the most popular points pack, thus an average of 1 per year per person seems unlikely) then they would need to add 50% of whatever their current VIP base is to break even. Again, that's a lot of subs to add. And your estimate on the average spend is probably way too low. Sure nobody has real store sales numbers, but these store numbers are pretty low.

If you are going to argue it would be a financial win, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree. No store = revenue loser.

I wouldn't mind a "no store" league, but I think they would need to switch the business model to one where you have to buy an entry pass to play on it. Something like $5 per character to play (if that character dies, you have to buy another character pass) or $40 for the 90 day league. VIP get a $15 discount and can play for $25. (Not sure what the numbers would be honestly). I don't think it is something they can just give away to VIP if there is no store.

[SiliconScout]

If the store matters so little, people are less likely to spend money on it. You can't have it both ways: either it matters to gain an advantage, and hence people pay for something valuable (and break the competition), or it doesn't, and hence most people won't buy, and thus the ''it must be there for the server to survive'' argument goes away.

I am not saying that is breaks competition at all. You are making a fairly large and inaccurate leap of logic in my point. I can honestly say that my casters rarely if ever turn off their meta magics and if they do its on specific spells and never their combat spells. I almost never run out of spell points, I rarely use my RoSS, Bauble, Talisman or even SP pots and hires. I can be economical with when and there I drop the beat and keep my wasted SP to a minimum. Some can't / won't and if they did by a SP potion then so what? How is that less competitive than popping a hire for the same effect.

The store provides the profit and I would say that the potential for adventure packs and guest passes is potentially quite large given their relative cost. HP and SP pots and their ilk can be purchased with in game currency so I don't see them as much of a seller. And it's convenient that you didn't' mention or quote that I thought the store should offer a limited selection of passes, packs and gold seal hires. Sorry if it doesn't fit your narrative but I did say it and stand by it. I do firmly believe they would have a much greater volume of sales if Premium could join in some how regardless of what is offered in the store.

No offense, but I find that to be an extremely weak argument. We can't have true competition, hence why attempt to make it more competitive at all. It is along the lines of ''we can't have balance, so everything goes (INQ)''.

I am sad that they choose to create a competitive hardcore league and then cheapened it with the store. I also dislike that there are obvious ways to game the system. I am a lot harsher in my criticism of the store than of the limited rules for the rest. As I said, overall it is fun and I hope that they can tighten up the design for the next league. I can see why several iterations might be needed to get the rule set down; I cannot say the same for the store.

Giving up because ''it cannot be perfectly competitive'' and ''micro trans must happen everywhere or else the game implodes'' seems a defeatist attitude that won't help improve the league (or the game). The league would be a perfect opportunity to test things like balance, quest difficulty, and so on.

For all it matters, they lost 1 month sub from me. I now go on a monthly basis, and I would have subbed during my traveling period to pay a bit of the league, but won't do it until I get back. I wonder how many other players have lost interest due to the league due to these and similar issues.

Wow ... No offense but you COMPLETELY missed my point. What I am saying if the goal is to be perfectly competitive that simply can't and won't happen. This is not the sort of game where pure skill will always rise to the top, especially in a permadeath situation where a single bad RNG result can take you down.

Perfection is the enemy of excellence so let's just agree that trying to make it "perfect" isn't realistic and lets aim for good. In this case we need to ask what defines success for SSG. I think they would define it as fun for their customers and profitable for the company.

Most who are there seem to be having fun so that should successful, but is it profitable? I don't know, SSG does I would presume but there's a lot to weigh in that area, there's pure sales and subs, there's telemetry data, there's some market research data and likely a decent amount of experience gained. My point on that second piece though is that gating it to VIP's only likely decreases the pure sales and subs part of the profitability and let' be honest that piece is what keeps them employed.