Why did we prune the xp fix list?

[acemonkey]

How did we go from needing to buff these missions +5-10% to them being ok? Didn't the developer tools indicate they're underutilized and need some love?

The Portal Opens
The House of Broken Chains
The House of Death Undone
The House of Rusted Blades
The Battle of Eveningstar
The Lost Thread
The Unquiet Graves
Don’t Drink the Water
In the Belly of the Beast

Memory Lapse
The Price of Freedom

Bargain of Blood
The Black Loch
The Tide Turns
Storm the Beaches

These are most of the missions that were on the list to be buffed that are actually usable for sane leveling, the ones that got buffed are either insane runs to get to, crowded with hundreds of overscaled mobs, or full of xoriat trash most people don't want to mess with. The only usable missions getting a buff are the High Road chain, looks like, at least imo.

[erethizon]

Yeah, I wasn't too pleased with the reduced list. I play only the heroic-only quests from 1 to 20 (i.e. I save all quests with an epic option for epic levels) and the update went from a planned decrease of 10% to Litany of the Dead and an increase in 7 heroic-only quests, to a much larger than 10% decrease in both Litany and Shadow Crypt, with a very small increase in only a single heroic-only quest (Lord of Stone). My heroic leveling will definitely be slower. Hopefully they will continue to modify quest experience in the upcoming patches and they pruned the list only due to a lack of time.

[mikarddo]

This definitely does look bad.

I dont mind the nerf to the quests that got one - but I sure do mind not getting large increases in xp to all the quests that need it. The list of Lam was far from long enough and shortening it only makes things worse. Where is the +200% increase to Tower of Frost that's needed?

[erethizon]

This definitely does look bad.

I dont mind the nerf to the quests that got one - but I sure do mind not getting large increases in xp to all the quests that need it. The list of Lam was far from long enough and shortening it only makes things worse. Where is the +200% increase to Tower of Frost that's needed?

I'm glad to see that ToEE (and a few others) got more than a 20% increase (since they hadn't said anything was getting more than a 20% increase), but I was definitely surprised that Tower of Frost didn't get any increase at all even though it was mentioned on the list. Tower of Frost gets a bad rap in my opinion (my last heroic run of that quest was 13 minutes with a party of level 13 and one level 14 players), but it still only gave 15k experience (including all first time bonuses for R1) which is low for a quest of that level even if it isn't as long as people say.

[Fivetigers33]

Because it wouldn't be DDO without a last minute "bait and switch" stealth nerf. You've gotta be expecting them at this point. Never get excited about anything until it hits live.

[BigErkyKid]

Yeah, I wasn't too pleased with the reduced list. I play only the heroic-only quests from 1 to 20 (i.e. I save all quests with an epic option for epic levels) and the update went from a planned decrease of 10% to Litany of the Dead and an increase in 7 heroic-only quests, to a much larger than 10% decrease in both Litany and Shadow Crypt, with a very small increase in only a single heroic-only quest (Lord of Stone). My heroic leveling will definitely be slower. Hopefully they will continue to modify quest experience in the upcoming patches and they pruned the list only due to a lack of time.

The obvious answer is that they are more concerned about the burn out due to repeat play than they are about possible reductions tot he pace at which you level.

The jaded answer is that, altogether, they just wanted to reduce fast tracking because what burn out* those players was not repeat play, but being done with the game. Thus, slowing the rate at which people TR will extend the duration of the grind, and hence, the time they are involved in the game.

*They call it burn out, but in fact it is just quitting the game (the reason is unknown to them since they don't have exit surveys). It could very well be that those are players who farm gear and PLs in epics. Once they have the gear and epic PLs they want, they quit playing.

[Potatofasf]

Because it wouldn't be DDO without a last minute "bait and switch" stealth nerf. You've gotta be expecting them at this point. Never get excited about anything until it hits live.

Sadly, but true...

*They call it burn out, but in fact it is just quitting the game (the reason is unknown to them since they don't have exit surveys). It could very well be that those are players who farm gear and PLs in epics. Once they have the gear and epic PLs they want, they quit playing.

Exacly!
They don't have exiting survey or returning survey... the impression is that the players don't matter at all for them.

[FlavoredSoul]

they bait and switched us with the exp changes, they nerfed more quests than they said they would in the discussion (shadow crypt got hit massively), and dropped dozens of quests that they said were going to get buffs (Wheloon, Stormhorns, MOTU, Sentinels chain, a few of the WPM quests, ect...), they seriously somehow didn't buff tower of frost at all when it needs at bare minimum a 20% boost.

a lot of people grit their teeth and accepted the exp daily nerfs because they thought many other decently runnable quests were getting buffed... instead we get bonus exp on high road and tethymar... and ToEE which nobody run part 2 of because it's awful and unfun.

[Cantor]

they bait and switched us with the exp changes, they nerfed more quests than they said they would in the discussion (shadow crypt got hit massively), and dropped dozens of quests that they said were going to get buffs (Wheloon, Stormhorns, MOTU, Sentinels chain, a few of the WPM quests, ect...), they seriously somehow didn't buff tower of frost at all when it needs at bare minimum a 20% boost.

a lot of people grit their teeth and accepted the exp daily nerfs because they thought many other decently runnable quests were getting buffed... instead we get bonus exp on high road and tethymar... and ToEE which nobody run part 2 of because it's awful and unfun.

Gotta say, I'm really unhappy at the reduction in quests that got buffs. The quests that got reduced needed it, but the increases are needed just as much/more. By not buffing everything they said they would, it went from a style change to an xp nerf.

[silinteresting]

*They call it burn out, but in fact it is just quitting the game (the reason is unknown to them since they don't have exit surveys). It could very well be that those are players who farm gear and PLs in epics. Once they have the gear and epic PLs they want, they quit playing.

actually they do have data, the data they have comes from what quests etc. ( what they where doing while logged into the game ) the
people where running before they stopped playing. in truth this is better data than a exit survey as what you where doing while logged
in is less liable to be manipulated than a survey could be.

your friend sil

[Potatofasf]

actually they do have data, the data they have comes from what quests etc. ( what they where doing while logged into the game ) the
people where running before they stopped playing.

That is the disease not the cause.

People start to grind then stop playing because the Hamster Wheel... then it causes burn out.
The repetition of quests are not the problem the Hamster Wheel are.

Unless they can solve that... the Grind, the Dailies will continue not matter how much "DATA" they have to proof their Nerfs.

[FlavoredSoul]

actually they do have data, the data they have comes from what quests etc. ( what they where doing while logged into the game ) the
people where running before they stopped playing. in truth this is better data than a exit survey as what you where doing while logged
in is less liable to be manipulated than a survey could be.

your friend sil

"internal data" doesn't tell you what the player was feeling that made them quit, and as SSG has proved their internal data gathering is incredibly inaccurate remember staff henshin mystic being a top dps build according to SSG?

[BigErkyKid]

actually they do have data, the data they have comes from what quests etc. ( what they where doing while logged into the game ) the
people where running before they stopped playing. in truth this is better data than a exit survey as what you where doing while logged
in is less liable to be manipulated than a survey could be.

your friend sil

Could it be they quit because, for example, They gathered the ePL they wanted? One last spies, I am 30, I eTR and don’t log again.

I can come up with similar reasons all day long. Whether they did a more careful analysis, we will never know.

And why would anyone want to manipulate an exit survey in a game? Say an automated email sent when your subscription expires. I am very curious.

[Haphazarduk]

Boosting unpopular quests by 10% won't make people run them. You can look to The Pit as good reference. The adventure isn't even that bad but still many people refuse to run it unless someone is half way through or they can pike and that quest has a ton more xp than most at it's level.

Hap

[Aelonwy]

I am also very disappointed that many of the quests that were supposedly going to gain a buff were missed/forgotten/ignored. On the other hand, many of the quests that got buffed... well the number went up so very little I was scratching my head wondering what was the point?

A Small Problem - increased from 3087 to 3236 (149 dif)
The Snitch - increased from 2060 to 2321 (261 dif)
Under the Big Top - increased from 2340 to 2620 (280 dif)
Fathom the Depths - increased from 3988 to 4204 (216 dif)
The Claw of Vulkoor - increased from 2800 to 3016 (216 dif)
The Last Stand - increased from 2260 to 2368 (108 dif)
Detour - increased from 5528 to 5798 (240 dif)
Rest Stop - increased from 3953 to 4223 (270 dif)
A Stay at the Inn- increased from 3250 to 3502 (252 dif)
The End of the Road - increased from 5680 to 5903 (223 dif)

[silinteresting]

And why would anyone want to manipulate an exit survey in a game? Say an automated email sent when your subscription expires. I am very curious.

its not about why someone would want to manipulate the survey intentionally even though a very tiny amount
will do this, its about the actually data received by surveys can and are heavily influenced by the way someone
feels ( what kind of mood there in ) and this gives a false feed back.

my for-instance in this would be is after a frustrating gaming session if you filled out the survey within an hour
of quiting some people would give a different reason for why they quit than they would if the survey was done 3
days later after you've had time to lose the frustration and think about why the game is no longer for you.

dont get me wrong but surveys in there own right can be a good thing to get a general gist of how things are going
in a pure analytical sense there garbage to many other factors have to be taken into consideration.

your friend sil

[Potatofasf]

its not about why someone would want to manipulate the survey intentionally even though a very tiny amount
will do this, its about the actually data received by surveys can and are heavily influenced by the way someone
feels ( what kind of mood there in ) and this gives a false feed back.

my for-instance in this would be is after a frustrating gaming session if you filled out the survey within an hour
of quiting some people would give a different reason for why they quit than they would if the survey was done 3
days later after you've had time to lose the frustration and think about why the game is no longer for you.

dont get me wrong but surveys in there own right can be a good thing to get a general gist of how things are going
in a pure analytical sense there garbage to many other factors have to be taken into consideration.

your friend sil

But... but... but... a game is a mix of Hard Data (The game itself) and Emotional Data (The people whom plays the game).
Analyzing and making assumption based just on the Hard Data is dumb as hell from a "know what is causing people to burn out" standpoint. If they are not considering the people feelings about the game, how they can address their frustration?

[SuperNiCd]

Seems to me if the motivation is really to try to avoid players burning out and quitting from repeating the same quests over and over, this is just treating a symptom rather than curing the disease, and it won't be effective at all.

What will players do now that the quests have had their XP altered?

Answer: Find the post 42.4 most efficient path for XP/min. And run those quests over and over.

The problem is high xp/min is rewarded.

[SpartanKiller13]

I'm also surprised some like Tower of Frost didn't get a bump. And some of them may need further bumps; that said, I'm glad they moved past the 5-10% increase they were looking at.

Here's what I calculated, including the nerfed quests:



Sorry for my abbreviations, I didn't plan on publishing the list lol; but the XP jump is pretty major for some of them.

I am also very disappointed that many of the quests that were supposedly going to gain a buff were missed/forgotten/ignored. On the other hand, many of the quests that got buffed... well the number went up so very little I was scratching my head wondering what was the point?

A Small Problem - increased from 3087 to 3236 (149 dif) 5% buff
The Snitch - increased from 2060 to 2321 (261 dif) 13% buff
Under the Big Top - increased from 2340 to 2620 (280 dif) 12% buff
Fathom the Depths - increased from 3988 to 4204 (216 dif) 5% buff
The Claw of Vulkoor - increased from 2800 to 3016 (216 dif) 8% buff
The Last Stand - increased from 2260 to 2368 (108 dif) 5% buff
Detour - increased from 5528 to 5798 (240 dif) 5% buff
Rest Stop - increased from 3953 to 4223 (270 dif) 7% buff
A Stay at the Inn- increased from 3250 to 3502 (252 dif) 8% buff
The End of the Road - increased from 5680 to 5903 (223 dif) 4% buff

End of the Road is the only one smaller than previously considered when they were talking 5-10% buffs. In fact, Big Top & The Snitch got larger buffs than they were even considering (12 & 13%), and all of those are pretty low on the chart. Can certainly argue that they need further attention, but in terms of percentage the devs have over-delivered compared to the preview.

[Aelonwy]

End of the Road is the only one smaller than previously considered when they were talking 5-10% buffs. In fact, Big Top & The Snitch got larger buffs than they were even considering (12 & 13%), and all of those are pretty low on the chart. Can certainly argue that they need further attention, but in terms of percentage the devs have over-delivered compared to the preview.

Yes I remember them saying 5-10%. You just don't think about the 5-10% amounting to such piddly numbers as 108-280 extra xp. Hopefully after bonuses this amounts to more... otherwise I must reiterate What was the point?