Hardcore and the Store, Questions and Concerns

[BigErkyKid]

Great point. I guess I would quibble that F2P games depend on smaller fish to serve as community content for bigger fish. I don't think hardcore will have a healthy enough community if people feel that the game is too unfair. We all want the house to win, but the game of cards needs to be fun enough for people to buy in.

They are already making you pay VIP for this, there is absolutely no need for them to monetize power in it. The returns on this server as likely enormous over the VIP fee, since they are adding extremely little and apparently using Lama's machines.

How on earth have customers transitioned from asking for more at a lower price to looking out for games to turn a profit?

You could argue that this is DDO specific, and that it is a ''small'' game that needs ''support''. However, I see the exact same type of arguments in ESO.

[atkbeast]

If everything that we are seeing on Lama now is what the server will be when things go live, then it doesn't look like it will be only for VIPs. I successfully logged in on both my VIP and premium accounts and created toons. Also it looks if you have bought 32 point build option it will be available on the server(at least it does on Lama).

If they do use the Lama server as the hardcore server, then the issue becomes what to do with the existing DDO points there. People that visit there regularly have had access to FREE DDO points. Yes, the wipe the server regularly, but the points have remained available each time. It is feasible that someone could start with millions of free points to spend. Also if the dojo isn't turned off, the whole purpose of hardcore is non-existent.

[Cocomajobo]

If everything that we are seeing on Lama now is what the server will be when things go live, then it doesn't look like it will be only for VIPs. I successfully logged in on both my VIP and premium accounts and created toons. Also it looks if you have bought 32 point build option it will be available on the server(at least it does on Lama).

If they do use the Lama server as the hardcore server, then the issue becomes what to do with the existing DDO points there. People that visit there regularly have had access to FREE DDO points. Yes, the wipe the server regularly, but the points have remained available each time. It is feasible that someone could start with millions of free points to spend. Also if the dojo isn't turned off, the whole purpose of hardcore is non-existent.

I recommend reading the OP of this thread to understand the current intention of the Hardcore League server and how it relates to what you can currently find on Lamannia for preview.

[Shadow_Jumper]

I recommend reading the OP of this thread to understand the current intention of the Hardcore League server and how it relates to what you can currently find on Lamannia for preview.

The OP announcement is still a little vague on details of intent however.

Is this intended to be a cash cow for ssg where players pay for boxes/rerolls to get to level 20 and then just elite/r1 favor cleanup for the rewards?

How much, if any of the store would be disabled, how much power could a player theoretically buy to give themselves an advantage? Other things that come to mind are store bought healing potions, buff potions etc.

Would there be a thing where you can’t spend money on ddop but can spend your favor rewards in store?

A comment about this would be appreciated

[HungarianRhapsody]

The OP announcement is still a little vague on details of intent however.

Is this intended to be a cash cow for ssg where players pay for boxes/rerolls to get to level 20 and then just elite/r1 favor cleanup for the rewards?

How much, if any of the store would be disabled, how much power could a player theoretically buy to give themselves an advantage? Other things that come to mind are store bought healing potions, buff potions etc.

Would there be a thing where you can’t spend money on ddop but can spend your favor rewards in store?

A comment about this would be appreciated

They were pretty clear. The full ddo store is available and we can spend buckets of money on those 90 day characters in order to push our way to the top of the leaderboard with cash.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Slayer areas have a limited amount of experience. I don't think it is possible to slay your way to 20 (unless you mean by getting rares over and over again at a 67% penalty). If you want easy questing to get to 20 you are better off running quests on normal.

The real milestone that will separate the great players from everyone else is the reaper experience board. The people that get the most reaper experience are the people that played near the level of the quest (since you get a big penalty for being over level) and played on the highest level of reaper difficulty that they could. Getting 5000 favor won't be too hard as you can first level on normal or hard and then do everything on elite once you are level 30.

The first paragraph is incorrect. Several(?) years ago, someone hit 20 with zero favor, only doing slayers. With access to store boosters, a dedicated group could level very quickly, and relatively safely.

[Blastyswa]

The first paragraph is incorrect. Several(?) years ago, someone hit 20 with zero favor, only doing slayers. With access to store boosters, a dedicated group could level very quickly, and relatively safely.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nly-Hit-Lvl-20

And that was before a lot of the newer slayer areas!

[Cocomajobo]

The OP announcement is still a little vague on details of intent however.

The only way that I can currently think of to be more clear than "The Hardcore League server is exactly the same as a normal live server in all ways except for the following" and then listing the only differences present in the Hardcore League server is to instead list every feature in DDO. That didn't seem plausible so I instead opted to list, specifically, the only differences that between the Hardcore League server and the other live servers. If something is not amongst the bullet points listed in that thread it is not currently planned to be different than what you can find on the other live servers.

Genuinely trying to be as clear as possible.

To answer your specific questions:

Is this intended to be a cash cow for ssg where players pay for boxes/rerolls to get to level 20 and then just elite/r1 favor cleanup for the rewards?

This is a loaded question, obviously, but worth answering as it speaks to a common frame of mind I am seeing in feedback on the feature.

We do not intend/expect many players to simply pay a large sum of money in order to collect all of the cosmetic rewards offered with no risky gameplay required. Currently, we don't believe that that is particularly plausible. If we become of the mind that it is we may add further restrictions on the server. We have talked internally, for instance, about adding an overlevel lockout on the server to prevent players from getting to high level, through whatever the least risky means is, and then looping back through low level content to collect favor.

If you have feedback to provide on the topic of Hardcore and how you would like it to be shaped, I encourage you to write that feedback in the main Lamannia thread to be reviewed by the development team. That is what that thread is for. I would also encourage you, if you haven't already, to spend some time on Lamannia in the coming days to gain firsthand knowledge of the feature.

How much, if any of the store would be disabled, how much power could a player theoretically buy to give themselves an advantage? Other things that come to mind are store bought healing potions, buff potions etc.

We have no current plans to have the store behave any differently on the Hardcore League server than it does on the other live servers.

Would there be a thing where you can’t spend money on ddop but can spend your favor rewards in store?

We have no current plans to have the store behave any differently on the Hardcore League server than it does on the other live servers.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Lots of ideas and comments about getting to level 20, and cap.

Using the store, nothing but slayers, gold dice rolls, otto's boxes etc......just to see your name in lights?


REALLY?

Just get a booth next year at Gencon 2020 and have the marquee read, "I won DDO" "I was 1st TR on HCL"

Is fame and notoriety that important?

Among friends it's fun to boast & brag and trash talk, but an mmo?


IF, I ever did it, I would not use any resources other than what I pulled or managed to buy from vendors. THAT'S hard core, not the aforementioned "tactics"

[Kza]

Personally the ranking aspect of the event doesn't appeal to me because it takes all of about 30 second to think of ways to game the system with or without store items.

I am liking the cosmetics that can be unlocked which is more appealing than the leader board to me. I would like to see permanent different color reaper wings unlocked at 75 pts (black, rainbow, etc.)n during the 90 days.

For an individual achievement ranking system anything that isn't 100% solo doesn't mean anything to me as you didn't earn it individually.

More important than even store items is implementing the old epic mechanic on all quests. In other words quests can only be run once per day.

So much this. Make the server have many fun different cosmetics, many of them easy and low fruits some of them harder, a select few very hard. Make ppl have a happy good time and not feel like it will be a "work" to get the cosmetics ppl would like to have. Then can the true hardcorers fight among the topplaces on the list.

[Fenrisulven7]

I'm a whale but will NOT be interested if I can access DDO Store, AH and vendors.

I was with Parvo's Permadeath Guild a few years back before I left DDO (back now) and it was the most intense DDO experience ever. My best memories.

I can pay to win on the other servers, so I'm hoping this experiment will be one where that silly Aid clicky has immense value. Otherwise, it's just DDO-lite.

Fingers crossed

[Pyed-Pyper]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nly-Hit-Lvl-20

And that was before a lot of the newer slayer areas!

thank you for doing the research!

[Grace_ana]

The only way that I can currently think of to be more clear than "The Hardcore League server is exactly the same as a normal live server in all ways except for the following" and then listing the only differences present in the Hardcore League server is to instead list every feature in DDO. That didn't seem plausible so I instead opted to list, specifically, the only differences that between the Hardcore League server and the other live servers. If something is not amongst the bullet points listed in that thread it is not currently planned to be different than what you can find on the other live servers.

Genuinely trying to be as clear as possible.

No offense, Coco, but what would be the point? There are already tons of players that buy lots of things and can waltz through a life without dying. I'm notoriously unconcerned about dying, and I think I died twice my last first life toon playing on R1. Lord only knows what I could do if I was, you know, careful. If someone wants the experience of playing with no past lives, they can start a new toon on the server they already play on.

So what exactly can the hardcore server offer people that the live servers don't? It sounds like the answer is cosmetics and a leaderboard that will disappear in 90 days. That's not particularly enticing.

It seems like you guys really, really misjudged what the players actually want. People were excited about the idea that there would be a limited-resource server where everyone is on an even playing field. That was the "fun" aspect people were excited about, judging from the many posts and comments. I just don't understand.

[karatemack]

The only way that I can currently think of to be more clear than "The Hardcore League server is exactly the same as a normal live server in all ways except for the following" and then listing the only differences present in the Hardcore League server is to instead list every feature in DDO. That didn't seem plausible so I instead opted to list, specifically, the only differences that between the Hardcore League server and the other live servers. If something is not amongst the bullet points listed in that thread it is not currently planned to be different than what you can find on the other live servers.

Genuinely trying to be as clear as possible.

He clearly wasn't asking you to list every feature in DDO. The clarity surrounding a subject your customers are obviously interested in discussing is appreciated.

To answer your specific questions:

This is a loaded question, obviously, but worth answering as it speaks to a common frame of mind I am seeing in feedback on the feature.

If you filter through the feedback and look for the positives, you'll find many examples. We want to be excited for the new things and do our best to remain hopeful you're still interested in developing a game we want to play. That's why we ask tons of questions and are passionate about the game.

We do not intend/expect many players to simply pay a large sum of money in order to collect all of the cosmetic rewards offered with no risky gameplay required. Currently, we don't believe that that is particularly plausible. If we become of the mind that it is we may add further restrictions on the server. We have talked internally, for instance, about adding an overlevel lockout on the server to prevent players from getting to high level, through whatever the least risky means is, and then looping back through low level content to collect favor.

The favor lockout is less of a concern given that all players will be on equal footing in this regard. Access to 50% XP boost pots and other store items to aid in quest completions is significant.

If you have feedback to provide on the topic of Hardcore and how you would like it to be shaped, I encourage you to write that feedback in the main Lamannia thread to be reviewed by the development team. That is what that thread is for. I would also encourage you, if you haven't already, to spend some time on Lamannia in the coming days to gain firsthand knowledge of the feature.

We have no current plans to have the store behave any differently on the Hardcore League server than it does on the other live servers.

We have no current plans to have the store behave any differently on the Hardcore League server than it does on the other live servers.

Done and done. Will continue to provide feedback there until those threads are also locked.

[Shadow_Jumper]

This is a loaded question, obviously, but worth answering as it speaks to a common frame of mind I am seeing in feedback on the feature.

I disagree that any of my questions were loaded.

If it was meant to incentivize players to spend money than i can totally agree with that, this is a business after all, and I already expect that players would be charged to transfer off the server like they would any other server, its a business after all.

Where i really disagree is that this is not a loaded question, because to most of the player base, and from the comments i have seen, the thought of the store being able to purchase artifical power (tomes, xp pots, crafting mats, sovereign heal pots etc) leaves a bad taste of P2W in their mouths of what they envision as a non-P2W feature of the game. Framing a question as such, in the light of players' worries is hardly a loaded question imo.

We do not intend/expect many players to simply pay a large sum of money in order to collect all of the cosmetic rewards offered with no risky gameplay required. Currently, we don't believe that that is particularly plausible. If we become of the mind that it is we may add further restrictions on the server. We have talked internally, for instance, about adding an overlevel lockout on the server to prevent players from getting to high level, through whatever the least risky means is, and then looping back through low level content to collect favor.

If i was someone who would be willing to spend money to skip the grind factor that this presents to safely minimize risk, i would do as such:

-Buy a Supreme tome +7
-Buy crafting mats/xp pots to quickly level up my cannith crafting level
-buy 50% xp pots
-gold roll to roughly level 4-5
-Buy sovereign healing pots that would be virtual 100% full health healing up to roughly level 10 hp even through reaper debuff

[cru121]

If i was someone who would be willing to spend money to skip the grind factor that this presents to safely minimize risk, i would do as such:

-Buy a Supreme tome +7
-Buy crafting mats/xp pots to quickly level up my cannith crafting level
-buy 50% xp pots
-gold roll to roughly level 4-5
-Buy sovereign healing pots that would be virtual 100% full health healing up to roughly level 10 hp even through reaper debuff

And I would gladly thank you for supporting the game and congratulate you to your potential hardcore league achievements.

[Shadow_Jumper]

And I would gladly thank you for supporting the game and congratulate you to your potential hardcore league achievements.

thats how id feel about people who would spend. looking at the store you could do it pretty cheaply too. I wont, i got better things to spend money on, but im sure therell be a few. honestly if i was a dev i would disable the store for anything esides a few things like bags, banks and xferres off and make the moneey that way

[Pyed-Pyper]

The only way that I can currently think of to be more clear than "The Hardcore League server is exactly the same as a normal live server in all ways except for the following" and then listing the only differences present in the Hardcore League server is to instead list every feature in DDO. That didn't seem plausible so I instead opted to list, specifically, the only differences that between the Hardcore League server and the other live servers. If something is not amongst the bullet points listed in that thread it is not currently planned to be different than what you can find on the other live servers.

Genuinely trying to be as clear as possible.

To answer your specific questions:



This is a loaded question, obviously, but worth answering as it speaks to a common frame of mind I am seeing in feedback on the feature.

We do not intend/expect many players to simply pay a large sum of money in order to collect all of the cosmetic rewards offered with no risky gameplay required. Currently, we don't believe that that is particularly plausible. If we become of the mind that it is we may add further restrictions on the server. We have talked internally, for instance, about adding an overlevel lockout on the server to prevent players from getting to high level, through whatever the least risky means is, and then looping back through low level content to collect favor.

If you have feedback to provide on the topic of Hardcore and how you would like it to be shaped, I encourage you to write that feedback in the main Lamannia thread to be reviewed by the development team. That is what that thread is for. I would also encourage you, if you haven't already, to spend some time on Lamannia in the coming days to gain firsthand knowledge of the feature.



We have no current plans to have the store behave any differently on the Hardcore League server than it does on the other live servers.



We have no current plans to have the store behave any differently on the Hardcore League server than it does on the other live servers.

I genuinely cannot decipher if the person in charge of naming things is a marketing genius or just illiterate. Or maybe idiot savant.

Reaper is supposed to be this amazing challenge but then the poison pill is folded in. Fail.

"Hardcore" has a specific definition and certainly connotes certain characteristics.

Words mean things. The thing that upsets me most about SSG is the *ahem* imprecise communication. Misleading? Deceptive? No, I didn't say that.

Putting some sort of public ranking system and then calling it something that is certain to be perceived in a particular way and then making it something completely different than what label implies ... what is the word for that?

If SSG had decided to call this the "hardcore rainmaker" server, or the "bonfire of the bucks" server, or maybe the "P2W" server then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If the person that names things, or anyone else at SSG, is truly mystified by the nature of this push-back, then, I don't know ... buy a dictionary?

And just so we're clear - the fact that SSG is doing this, generally speaking, I see as a positive thing. In this specific instance, it reeks of a clumsy cash grab.

[Eldried]

I have played in a Permadeath Guild in DDO before and it was kinda fun. And I like the idea of leaderboards and stuff like that. But unless the store is disabled(or at least everything that gives an advantage ingame) on such a server I would not even think about playing there.

[Cernunan]

Just as a counter to all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth over people boo hooing that a business isn't just devoting man hours to give you requested content, but expect said business to then not actually make any money over the expended man hours, I can say I am more then happy to have the store active on this server.

With that being said, I despise the entire idea of this serve, but because it has prizes I do not want to loose out on, I will be forced to painfully grind on this awful idea. So thank god I can buy store pots to make this terrible grind more bearable of an experience for me.
Just an fyi though, if you prevent overleved characters from entering dungeons just to appease the winey baby types, I won't be participating, and that means I wont be dropping 60 bucks on pots, so that would be the companies monetary loss. Please keep that in mind