Should skill feats be updated?

[SpartanKiller13]

First time trying out Polls, so bear with me.

This discussion was brought about by someone saying that skill feats are a noob trap (and me saying that there's a niche for them). That said, current skill feats are pretty weak; +2 to two skills (or +3 to one) hardly matters past earlygame, unless you're really desperate for just a little more (like my tank, who has three skill feats). What if they scaled a bit more? Like +2 in heroics, +4 in epics, and +6 at cap? Skill Focus would be +3/6/9, Epic Skill Focus would be +x/10/15, even stuff like Epic Reputation would be +x/6/9.

Levels 1-10, 11-20, and 21-30 would also be a solid level split (and proportioned more evenly). Either way, if you grab one early to meet a skill DC, you'd be getting a bit more out of it later on, and if you grab one later it's actually meaningful. ESF: Spellcraft might be worth considering for blasters, or ESF: Heal for healers. 1-2 feats would more easily allow a new tank to grab aggro, or an endgame tank to maintain it (going in theme with the Threat updates etc). 4 feats into Swim would make you zoom even more than they currently do

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts and suggestions

Edit: multiple votes enabled so you don't feel obligated to only vote for penguins. You know how it goes...

[Dragavon]

Well, your friend is right.

But there are literally hundreds of feats in DDO that are useless for most players. I do not see why it is a problem that skill feats are useless.

99% of the feats in DDO could be deleted and not one single player would ever miss them.

[droid327]

I dont think, even if you just stat-flated them, they'd be worth taking. They'd still be a noob trap. You'd need like 25 feats before most of them become worth taking in the last slot.

I think some of them might see some targeted improvements - Nimble Fingers, for example, might give you -20% induction bar times. That'd be useful and worth taking as a "convenience feat" after all your relevant combat feats are slotted. Toughness could be 5% HP rather than a flat bonus. Feats like Dazing Blow and Slicing Blow might be more widely useful as a passive proc-on-hit (essentially becoming an extra affix on your weapons, like the Con damage on Nightshade or the Guardbreaking affix on Tiller). Things like that, but I think most of them are unsalvageable since there's only so many things that actually matter in the game.

Plus, if they gave the skill-bonus ones a significant improvement, then they'll have to balance for those bigger available bonuses - so some skill checks may end up requiring them. Or if they dont, and they leave all the skill-check DCs as-is, then those skill-bonus feats are ultimately useless, since you can make your DCs without them, just using gear and maybe twists. So its kind of a lose-lose.

Ultimately, feats are among the highest opportunity-cost channels for improving our characters. By nature, they need to be big, significant, meaningful improvements central to your playstyle.

[Cantor]

I dont think, even if you just stat-flated them, they'd be worth taking. They'd still be a noob trap. You'd need like 25 feats before most of them become worth taking in the last slot.

I think some of them might see some targeted improvements - Nimble Fingers, for example, might give you -20% induction bar times. That'd be useful and worth taking as a "convenience feat" after all your relevant combat feats are slotted. Toughness could be 5% HP rather than a flat bonus. Things like that, but I think most of them are unsalvageable since there's only so many things that actually matter in the game.

Plus, if they gave the skill-bonus ones a significant improvement, then they'll have to balance for those bigger available bonuses - so some skill checks may end up requiring them. Or if they dont, and they leave all the skill-check DCs as-is, then those skill-bonus feats are ultimately useless, since you can make your DCs without them, just using gear and maybe twists. So its kind of a lose-lose.

Ultimately, feats are among the highest opportunity-cost channels for improving our characters. By nature, they need to be big, significant, meaningful improvements central to your playstyle.

Yup, they would need game changing effects. nimble fingers: reduced bar times, alertness: auto search, acrobatic: always considered tumbled recently, athletic: immune to knockdown, combat casting: cooldown reduction, negotiator cooldown reduction, self sufficient: reaper self heal penalty reduction, stealthy: SA dice and stealth movespeed...

Practically anything with an integer boost is in need of a boost.

[SpartanKiller13]

But there are literally hundreds of feats in DDO that are useless for most players. I do not see why it is a problem that skill feats are useless.

Yup, they would need game changing effects. nimble fingers: reduced bar times, alertness: auto search, acrobatic: always considered tumbled recently, athletic: immune to knockdown, combat casting: cooldown reduction, negotiator cooldown reduction, self sufficient: reaper self heal penalty reduction, stealthy: SA dice and stealth movespeed...

Practically anything with an integer boost is in need of a boost.

I just figured an integer boost would be an easy way to make them more viable, and with much less work for the devs. A lot of things would be cool, but if it's an easier change it's a lot more likely to happen

[LurkingVeteran]

Yup, they would need game changing effects. nimble fingers: reduced bar times, alertness: auto search, acrobatic: always considered tumbled recently, athletic: immune to knockdown, combat casting: cooldown reduction, negotiator cooldown reduction, self sufficient: reaper self heal penalty reduction, stealthy: SA dice and stealth movespeed...

Practically anything with an integer boost is in need of a boost.

These were pretty good ideas. Combat casting should be cast-time reduction though. Currently it's pretty much a tax on the few people running mobile spell casting.

[Silverleafeon]

"Why make bad feats?"

1) Lore - some feats tie DDO back to its D&D roots thereby becoming important in their own way.

2) Player skill distinction - if all feats were good, then all choice become good and smart players have a level playing field with dumb players.

3) Discovery - some bad feats might combo with other unknowns that the developer might not have foreseen and create a hidden new build.

4) Flavor - some players are willing to sacrifice power for themes in order to make their character memorable or more fun to play.

5) Handicap system - players might create a static group with certain rules, ideas, and themes.

6) Options of new trees - certain unpopular feats might be featured as bonus feats inside a potential new tree.

7) Gimp play - players might want to challenge themselves by seeing how they can use less popular feats effectively.

8) Developer time - it might be more efficient for developers to prioritize their work, leaving more time for other projects

[cpw_acc]

"Why make bad feats?"

1) Lore - some feats tie DDO back to its D&D roots thereby becoming important in their own way.

2) Player skill distinction - if all feats were good, then all choice become good and smart players have a level playing field with dumb players.

3) Discovery - some bad feats might combo with other unknowns that the developer might not have foreseen and create a hidden new build.

4) Flavor - some players are willing to sacrifice power for themes in order to make their character memorable or more fun to play.

5) Handicap system - players might create a static group with certain rules, ideas, and themes.

6) Options of new trees - certain unpopular feats might be featured as bonus feats inside a potential new tree.

7) Gimp play - players might want to challenge themselves by seeing how they can use less popular feats effectively.

8) Developer time - it might be more efficient for developers to prioritize their work, leaving more time for other projects

All of this ^^^


Most of these "bad" feats are hangovers from D&D rules I believe, and long surpassed by the DDO march of time and general paradigm changes.

This is especially true for the ones that boost skills. Skills/DCs don't scale in the same way as attacks/AC and damage does and are binary in nature (they either work or they don't).

Plus, of course, DDO is combat oriented and it's harder to get many of these skill-boosting feats to be noticeably useful in combat anyway compared to more obvious combat-style feats (even the stealth skills are contentious in the way DDO does(n't) support that style of play).

I found it interesting how the inquisitor tree was quite focused around using the diplomacy skill to create additional effects.

Perhaps that's what we need - more ways that skills like intimidate and balance etc can actually be used to enhance combat-based game-play.

(Edit: Balance is required for single-weapon fighting of course, though even then it's only the base value that matters for feat eligibility rather than your actual skill score)

[Xgya]

Instead of increasing the bonus to those skills (which would still make them irrelevant once past a certain point), I'd rather give them something combat-related.

Give Combat Casting some extra spell critical chance/damage, like they did with *insert that mana feat line's name here*

Make all the skill focuses active feats with stance benefits (so they'd be mutually exclusive)
Intimidate would increase threat, while Diplomacy and Bluff would reduce it.
UMD would reduce scroll cooldowns.

I'm sure we could think of something appropriate for all those skills.

[Grandern_Marn]

Don’t like em? Don’t pick em.
I got plenty of other feats to worry about fitting in. You could triple the bonus to a +6 and I’d still likely not pick a skill feat.
The only time I pick skill feats is when I want my 1st level bank toons to not jump like logs.

[BigErkyKid]

It comes down to the fact that, among those still playing, we have some of the most ruthless metagamers; and they are a non negligible part of the playerbase, and an even greater part of the posters. This is people who will take the most broken things out there, and use them to grind whatever power is available. When that's nerfed, they'll move to the next best thing and call it a day.

How many class or even style specialists do we have out there? What happened to: Nowoki (rogues), MadCookieQueen (bards), Andoris (wizards), and so many others that focused on acrobats, monks, and their fav classes and had vast knowledge and experience playing them.

There are no longer well respected builds that last, or experts in certain styles, because quite frankly the game is not well balanced and rewards the freaking path of least resistance; it is all about the meta.

Now, in this desolate context, most of the people left don't give a freaking darn about the fact that the vast majority of the options in this game could be deleted, and no one would be worse off because of it. For that person focused on grinding whatever they are grinding, the fact that they are doing it on an axe swinging barbarian or some silly looking pew pew dual xbow (SERIOUSLY!), or blasting warlock that macroed the two auras (there was a time I saw those in quests...they couldnt be bothered to press the buttons, it was macroed FFS), is completely irrelevant.

As for the rest, a lot go one of two routes: either they move on the meta train, or play suboptimal things at a suboptimal pace and ignore whatever the game is pushing them towards.

Talking about balance with either group is pretty pointless, since meta chasers have zero interest in balance, and the rest don't care about it. The poor few souls that have not signed on to this are far gone from the game, or are left babbling in a corner like mad old adventurers.

/rant off.

This has been mentioned, no one really cares much about it.

[SpartanKiller13]

Don’t like em? Don’t pick em.
I got plenty of other feats to worry about fitting in. You could triple the bonus to a +6 and I’d still likely not pick a skill feat.
The only time I pick skill feats is when I want my 1st level bank toons to not jump like logs.

I took a few on my tank, which is probably the only time I'll do so. But I was looking for every edge in Intimidate, and +11 from those three feats vs +33 would be a non-negligible difference

I also think it would help out newer players getting into Trapping, which is why I was hesitant to push for larger buffs. But with a few feats less gear/building etc would be required to hit the same benchmarks that vets hit effortlessly.

[LurkingVeteran]

Talking about balance with either group is pretty pointless, since meta chasers have zero interest in balance, and the rest don't care about it. The poor few souls that have not signed on to this are far gone from the game, or are left babbling in a corner like mad old adventurers.

/rant off.

This has been mentioned, no one really cares much about it.

Most people want to at least be reasonably competitive unless they are determined to play DDO like a single player game. Many newbies pick a class based upon some imagined play style and not by googling what is best atm. I actually think most pure builds do a passable job of delivering right now though.

Perhaps Paths are the bigger problem, that is where feat/spell selection can go horribly wrong, I haven't tried those in ages and I can definitely see that being a pain point. As long as the Paths pick reasonable feats, I don't think having pointless feats are as bad, but it's still a newbie trap. I remember a friend quickly quitting because the Sorc Path's second level spell was Jump or something. While Jump is essential later on, it doesn't really stand out early on when Sorcs expect to get more ways to blow things up. Path play testing > feat balance.

[Captain_Wizbang]

[Memnir]

[C-Dog]

"Why make bad feats?"

1) Lore - some feats tie DDO back to its D&D roots thereby becoming important in their own way.

I wasn't around DDO back then, but afaict when it started it largely copied/pasted 3.5 into MMO format, and called it good (simplifying, but that was the starting point). So all those Feats from the Player's Handbook are still here, use 'em or not. Even things like Bullheaded and Snakeblood. :/

[Ralmeth]

I think it would be interesting to update them to have both a skill bonus and some other interesting effect. To keep the work to a minimum, abilities already coded into the game could be used. For example:
- Skill focus balance also makes you immune to slippery surfaces.
- Skill focus diplomacy could reduce hate by 50%.
- Skill focus intimidate could add 50% hate.
- Skill focus search could be changed to Nothing is Hidden.
- Skill focus tumble could be changed to the Wild Step enhancement in the Wood Elf tree.

[Chai]

Make it 3 initial then +1/6 character levels.

You'd end up with +8 at level 30.

[Vulkoorex]

I think it would be interesting to update them to have both a skill bonus and some other interesting effect. To keep the work to a minimum, abilities already coded into the game could be used. For example:
- Skill focus balance also makes you immune to slippery surfaces.
- Skill focus diplomacy could reduce hate by 50%.
- Skill focus intimidate could add 50% hate.
- Skill focus search could be changed to Nothing is Hidden.
- Skill focus tumble could be changed to the Wild Step enhancement in the Wood Elf tree.

- Skill focus concentration could make you immune to all disruption when performing a certain action like open door, open chest, pick lock, disable traps, etc.

[droid327]

- Skill focus concentration could make you immune to all disruption when performing a certain action like open door, open chest, pick lock, disable traps, etc.

This would break some quests since doors etc are sometimes meant to be a combat lock - you can't get through unless you kill the mobs interrupting you. If you couldn't be interrupted period, then mechanics like repairs in precious cargo or the ritual in servants of the overlords become trivial.