Wizard/PM Survivability & (DARK) Cleric Enhancement Thoughts

[Merrillman]

To the devs...

Wizard survivability is a huge (HUGE) issue if you do not want to play a PM. How about something such as a new enhancement tree for wizards that would help and focus on “Arcane Amplification?”

For instance, the tree’s (Arcane Conduit has a nice ring to it!) First slot could be, “Potion Amplification.” Similar to healing amp (which i think it should stack with, but which is almost never used as a wizard).

Ex: Tier 1: +20 PA, tier 2: + 40 PA, and so on.
Another slot: Scroll Amplification, etc.

How about FASTER potion cool-downs for the “Conduit?” That would be HUGE!

Also, while I know we have SOME of these types of things (wands, scrolls, orbs and staves have pluses to power when wielded, etc...) in trees there is a not a “dedication” to amplifying magic and I would not ever take such enhancements next to DC’s, Crit, etc.... I think all of that should be a separate tree, and not just something nobody is going to use or give up DC’s or Spell Pen - or two scepters in a lot of cases — for.

How about an “aura of amplification” where magic cast by any class in an Arcane conduit’s Party (a capstone, perhaps) within a radius of the “Arcane Conduit” is amplified, by say 5-10-15%? That could even work for bards...

So many possible ways to make this work.

How about “Amplify Implement” in the tree where a spell-casting implement’s Bonus is amplified by 5-10-15% (maybe only 2 handed implements, which would help make a staff compete with 2 scepters?)

The way I figure it, you can allow some tweaks (potion amp, faster potion or clickie cooldowns) on the healing side for simple survivability and some tweaks on the power side (Amplify Implement), and it wouldn’t overdo or step on a Divine Caster’s toes, but at least give some chance to survive without a tank, though at a cost in Enhancement Trees and also forgoing other point spends.

And hey, DARK CLERICS (love the Dark Cleric path, GREAT with necrotic rays, etc) should ABSOLUTELY be able to pick PM enhancements too! Like undead forms SO YOU CAN NEGATIVE HEAL and maybe to balance the Cleric version no Summoning of a skeletal Warrior in Cleric PM tree??! Maybe lose access to positive healing except for the negative versions?

How about “Necrotic Conjuration” a-la Tiefling Spell power enhancement where instead of spell power swaps, you use spell schools, so if you have a +8 necro item it is then ALSO a + 8 Conjuration item? Or skill swaps like swapping Spellcraft and HEAL? Sounds perfect for an Arcane Conduit!

I love the Wizard, but truthfully a “plain” wizard isn’t that fun (if you actually want to survive) without PM. No sense in playing a wizard when sorcerers and their quicker casting and higher power/focus and Spell Points can do all the same things, and quicker/better and with more power — even bypassing immunities!

Traditional wizards should be fearsome and wickedly powered and not a class that can’t stand on its own. I’ve got quite a few lives, many alts with many lives and there is simply no way I’d ever play a straight wiz again because you simply cannot survive on anything above hard. You go up one level and it’s like you’ve been transported from a level 32 dungeon to a level 75 dungeon it’s such a drastic change in difficulty that in no way is explained by a simple one level jump. At least let a tank hireling actually take all the darned aggro, not be one or two shotted into oblivion (happens ALL the time) so why bother buying a tank hireling at all if that tank immediately runs out of gas?

Not meaning to be entirely critical, but I just LOVE wizard, been playing them for 40 years tabletop, ddo, NW, Baldur, Torment, etc..., but you just can’t play one without the Necro if you want to live. Do love all the work on PM. Think it’s an absolute master stroke.

[SpartanKiller13]

To the devs...

Wizard survivability is a huge (HUGE) issue if you do not want to play a PM.

...Isn't that the point of squishy casters? I mean if you want a tanky caster play a Warlock lol. Or a Cleric. Or FvS. Or Druid.

Let's not make all classes equal, diversity is good

First slot could be, “Potion Amplification.”

So make Wizards like Artificers? Who have cool potion throwy stuff etc, and are the "magic items" class?

How about an “aura of amplification” where magic cast by any class in an Arcane conduit’s Party (a capstone, perhaps) within a radius of the “Arcane Conduit” is amplified, by say 5-10-15%? That could even work for bards...

Ah, so you want to make Wizards into Bards! Wait, why not just play a Bard?

How about “Amplify Implement” in the tree where a spell-casting implement’s Bonus is amplified by 5-10-15% (maybe only 2 handed implements, which would help make a staff compete with 2 scepters?)

But this is Cleric/FvS territory? Besides, on a +10 weapon, adding 10% Implement bonus would be +3 spellpower, equivalent to adding +1 to the enhancement bonus of the weapon. Are you sure that's worth asking for? 15% on a +15 weapon is still only +2 enhancement, or +6 spellpower.

And hey, DARK CLERICS (love the Dark Cleric path, GREAT with necrotic rays, etc) should ABSOLUTELY be able to pick PM enhancements too! Like undead forms SO YOU CAN NEGATIVE HEAL and maybe to balance the Cleric version no Summoning of a skeletal Warrior in Cleric PM tree??! Maybe lose access to positive healing except for the negative versions?

But Clerics get their power from the gods, and Pale Masters get their power from extensively studying arcane formula? Besides, multiclassing allows you to do this currently

How about “Necrotic Conjuration” a-la Tiefling Spell power enhancement where instead of spell power swaps, you use spell schools, so if you have a +8 necro item it is then ALSO a + 8 Conjuration item? Or skill swaps like swapping Spellcraft and HEAL? Sounds perfect for an Arcane Conduit!

Grab a free Ravenloft Scepter, it's +11 to all schools! Gets you Enchantment and everything else all at once A specialized DC item from the same pack is only 1 greater.

Skill swapping is sorta nice, but 50 Spellcraft vs 30 Heal is all of 20 spellpower you're talking about. And that's only at higher levels.

I love the Wizard, but truthfully a “plain” wizard isn’t that fun (if you actually want to survive) without PM. No sense in playing a wizard when sorcerers and their quicker casting and higher power/focus and Spell Points can do all the same things, and quicker/better and with more power — even bypassing immunities!

There's Toasters too, they get much of the same immunities and self-healing as PM's do? Also with the upcoming pass PM's will be able to bypass immunities?

Sorcs are better blast casters, Wizards have more options and are generally better at DC casting. Also they have PM tree which is awesome

Traditional wizards should be fearsome and wickedly powered and not a class that can’t stand on its own.

Traditional Wizards, in D&D, are fearsome and wickedly powerful and squishier than a bug. In DDO they are way tougher and have multiple self-healing options (potions, UMD, PM, Toaster, Twists, multiclass) available far more easily than in PnP.

I’ve got quite a few lives, many alts with many lives and there is simply no way I’d ever play a straight wiz again because you simply cannot survive on anything above hard. You go up one level and it’s like you’ve been transported from a level 32 dungeon to a level 75 dungeon it’s such a drastic change in difficulty that in no way is explained by a simple one level jump. At least let a tank hireling actually take all the darned aggro, not be one or two shotted into oblivion (happens ALL the time) so why bother buying a tank hireling at all if that tank immediately runs out of gas?

I recently ran a life as a pure Wizard, with no relevant PL's (~12 non-relevant PL's), and did R1+ Heroic and Legendary. Survived the vast majority of the time, and had consistent instakills/CC the whole way. I definitely went in with a full gearset @15 & 29 (swapped Int items at 23 as well) but that's pretty easy to do with your many lives

Certainly, I did it as a PM (because why not, and easy DC bonuses). That said, if I could hit DC's I think it'd have been fine without PM by bringing a hire etc. 95% of everything died immediately, and the rest I was kiting anyway. Like I had a run of LR1 WGU, where I had 180/210 kills in a full party of 6. Don't need self-healing if the other guy is dead

As far as hirelings, they're not meant to replace a competent party member, and they're not meant to carry you through R5 lol. They're there as a cheap (and it shows) alternative for utility, healing, etc - and they're scaled for ~Hard or so. If a hire could tank R1 easily, why would I build a tank? Why would I care about survivability? Why would I need to have healing available? My hire would grab all the aggro, stay alive, and I could easily kill stuff even as a Int-maxed Barbarian dart thrower. At least presuming the hire is equivalent to my first life tank which I have parked at 30, that's functionally immortal in most quests at low Reaper.

Not meaning to be entirely critical, but I just LOVE wizard, been playing them for 40 years tabletop, ddo, NW, Baldur, Torment, etc..., but you just can’t play one without the Necro if you want to live. Do love all the work on PM. Think it’s an absolute master stroke.

That's like saying you can't play a Warlock without temp HP if you want to live. Sure, it's an easy option but there are alternatives. Like Toasters, UMD, or twisting heals. Or multiclass. Giving Wizards a tank tree would (IMO) defeat the whole purpose of the class, and would significantly lessen class diversity and ruin much of the cool parts about DDO (like DIFFERENT CHARACTERS BEING DIFFERENT).

Besides, if you've been playing Wizard for 40 years you ought to know they're not a frontline class lol.

[Merrillman]

“Certainly, I did it as a PM (because why not, and easy DC bonuses). That said, if I could hit DC's I think it'd have been fine without PM by bringing a hire etc. 95% of everything died immediately, and the rest I was kiting anyway. Like I had a run of LR1 WGU, where I had 180/210 kills in a full party of 6. Don't need self-healing if the other guy is dead ”

That’s exactly my point. You did it as a PM, NOT as a pure wizard. Nobody wants a pure wiz and that’s a shame. How can the Archetype of magic itself be so useless without PM? I just think it’s a travesty.

As far as hirelings, they're not meant to replace a competent party member, and they're not meant to carry you through R5 lol. They're there as a cheap (and it shows) alternative for utility, healing, etc - and they're scaled for ~Hard or so. If a hire could tank R1 easily, why would I build a tank? Why would I care about survivability? Why would I need to have healing available? My hire would grab all the aggro, stay alive, and I could easily kill stuff even as a Int-maxed Barbarian dart thrower. At least presuming the hire is equivalent to my first life tank which I have parked at 30, that's functionally immortal in most quests at low Reaper.

They should be at least able to tank or heal effectively at elite & r1. They are functionally useless. Hirelings are absolutely supposed to be for soloing. They should be geared and just as powerful as any decent player, otherwise they have very little functional use. Why bother if they’re dead quickly? Waste of DDOP.

“That's like saying you can't play a Warlock without temp HP if you want to live. Sure, it's an easy option but there are alternatives. Like Toasters, UMD, or twisting heals. Or multiclass. Giving Wizards a tank tree would (IMO) defeat the whole purpose of the class, and would significantly lessen class diversity and ruin much of the cool parts about DDO (like DIFFERENT CHARACTERS BEING DIFFERENT).”

I see your line of thinking, but artificers, for instance, functionally get machine guns, bombs, AND hit points AND better armor, AND massive healing, AND condition immunities (race based) — none of which applies to wizard casters. We still have to deal with crappy AC, hit points, etc... but the ability to USE MAGIC better than everyone else should be a NO BRAINER — and maybe NOT have to Slot a scroll to use it, or have UMD = to Spellcraft or SOMETHING that doesn’t force you into PM for survivability— because this ISN'T tabletop, and you Cant play tabletop solo, but CAN and DO play DDO solo.

Besides, if you've been playing Wizard for 40 years you ought to know they're not a frontline class lol.[/QUOTE]

To the devs...

Wizard survivability is a huge (HUGE) issue if you do not want to play a PM. How about something such as a new enhancement tree for wizards that would help and focus on “Arcane Amplification?”

For instance, the tree’s (Arcane Conduit has a nice ring to it!) First slot could be, “Potion Amplification.” Similar to healing amp (which i think it should stack with, but which is almost never used as a wizard).

Ex: Tier 1: +20 PA, tier 2: + 40 PA, and so on.
Another slot: Scroll Amplification, etc.

How about FASTER potion cool-downs for the “Conduit?” That would be HUGE!

Also, while I know we have SOME of these types of things (wands, scrolls, orbs and staves have pluses to power when wielded, etc...) in trees there is a not a “dedication” to amplifying magic and I would not ever take such enhancements next to DC’s, Crit, etc.... I think all of that should be a separate tree, and not just something nobody is going to use or give up DC’s or Spell Pen - or two scepters in a lot of cases — for.

How about an “aura of amplification” where magic cast by any class in an Arcane conduit’s Party (a capstone, perhaps) within a radius of the “Arcane Conduit” is amplified, by say 5-10-15%? That could even work for bards...

So many possible ways to make this work.

How about “Amplify Implement” in the tree where a spell-casting implement’s Bonus is amplified by 5-10-15% (maybe only 2 handed implements, which would help make a staff compete with 2 scepters?)

The way I figure it, you can allow some tweaks (potion amp, faster potion or clickie cooldowns) on the healing side for simple survivability and some tweaks on the power side (Amplify Implement), and it wouldn’t overdo or step on a Divine Caster’s toes, but at least give some chance to survive without a tank, though at a cost in Enhancement Trees and also forgoing other point spends.

And hey, DARK CLERICS (love the Dark Cleric path, GREAT with necrotic rays, etc) should ABSOLUTELY be able to pick PM enhancements too! Like undead forms SO YOU CAN NEGATIVE HEAL and maybe to balance the Cleric version no Summoning of a skeletal Warrior in Cleric PM tree??! Maybe lose access to positive healing except for the negative versions?

How about “Necrotic Conjuration” a-la Tiefling Spell power enhancement where instead of spell power swaps, you use spell schools, so if you have a +8 necro item it is then ALSO a + 8 Conjuration item? Or skill swaps like swapping Spellcraft and HEAL? Sounds perfect for an Arcane Conduit!

I love the Wizard, but truthfully a “plain” wizard isn’t that fun (if you actually want to survive) without PM. No sense in playing a wizard when sorcerers and their quicker casting and higher power/focus and Spell Points can do all the same things, and quicker/better and with more power — even bypassing immunities!

Traditional wizards should be fearsome and wickedly powered and not a class that can’t stand on its own. I’ve got quite a few lives, many alts with many lives and there is simply no way I’d ever play a straight wiz again because you simply cannot survive on anything above hard. You go up one level and it’s like you’ve been transported from a level 32 dungeon to a level 75 dungeon it’s such a drastic change in difficulty that in no way is explained by a simple one level jump. At least let a tank hireling actually take all the darned aggro, not be one or two shotted into oblivion (happens ALL the time) so why bother buying a tank hireling at all if that tank immediately runs out of gas?

Not meaning to be entirely critical, but I just LOVE wizard, been playing them for 40 years tabletop, ddo, NW, Baldur, Torment, etc..., but you just can’t play one without the Necro if you want to live. Do love all the work on PM. Think it’s an absolute master stroke.

[CeltEireson]

I'd rather they improved wizard (and other spell casters) survivability by either adding new spells or improving existing spells - this was always where a mage was supposed to get their defences. Most buffs have been unchanged since the beginning of the game despite massive increase in the benefits provided by items/armour such as barkskin/shield of faith only going up to +5 to AC despite item equivalents in epics going up to what +15 these days?

For wizards stoneskin is no longer a strong spell except possibly at the levels when you initially get it, +10 DR is nothing in epics. Elemental resistance from the spell only goes up to 30 despite items providing over 50 and despite the massive increase in elemental damage. Protection from energy is the same - in epics it may not even stop one blast. So give us a greater stoneskin (say 20DR and +10PRR but with only lasts 10 hits), higher elemental resistance from spells for casters levels over 20, increase the cap for protection from energy etc, and possibly gives us mass elemental resistance or resist energy (all types of elemental damage).

A lot of time has been spent rebalancing damage spells, very little on protection spells.

[Merrillman]

I'd rather they improved wizard (and other spell casters) survivability by either adding new spells or improving existing spells - this was always where a mage was supposed to get their defences. Most buffs have been unchanged since the beginning of the game despite massive increase in the benefits provided by items/armour such as barkskin/shield of faith only going up to +5 to AC despite item equivalents in epics going up to what +15 these days?

For wizards stoneskin is no longer a strong spell except possibly at the levels when you initially get it, +10 DR is nothing in epics. Elemental resistance from the spell only goes up to 30 despite items providing over 50 and despite the massive increase in elemental damage. Protection from energy is the same - in epics it may not even stop one blast. So give us a greater stoneskin (say 20DR and +10PRR but with only lasts 10 hits), higher elemental resistance from spells for casters levels over 20, increase the cap for protection from energy etc, and possibly gives us mass elemental resistance or resist energy (all types of elemental damage).

A lot of time has been spent rebalancing damage spells, very little on protection spells.

I could live with something like that/upping the magic protections because you SHOULD be able to survive as a wizard - especially at high levels, where you should be able to survive even more than a tanky character, and as I said, be FEARSOME, but have many “Guards & Wards” (true 1e peeps know what that is...)

[SpartanKiller13]

Certainly, I did it as a PM (because why not, and easy DC bonuses). That said, if I could hit DC's I think it'd have been fine without PM by bringing a hire etc. 95% of everything died immediately, and the rest I was kiting anyway. Like I had a run of LR1 WGU, where I had 180/210 kills in a full party of 6. Don't need self-healing if the other guy is dead

That’s exactly my point. You did it as a PM, NOT as a pure wizard. Nobody wants a pure wiz and that’s a shame. How can the Archetype of magic itself be so useless without PM? I just think it’s a travesty.

Sure, I did it as a PM because I have a huge focus on sustainable characters lol. My point was that I could have done it without being a PM, but that would have required a few different choices. Magic is just fine without PM, it's just a solid niche that's useful.

Now that Eldritch Knight has been buffed I'm seeing a lot more non-PM Wizards. But if you don't use EK, and spend 40ish AP into Archmage, where will your other 40ish go? Harper? Racial? Then what about the last pile? I did PM lol.

As far as hirelings, they're not meant to replace a competent party member, and they're not meant to carry you through R5 lol. They're there as a cheap (and it shows) alternative for utility, healing, etc - and they're scaled for ~Hard or so. If a hire could tank R1 easily, why would I build a tank? Why would I care about survivability? Why would I need to have healing available? My hire would grab all the aggro, stay alive, and I could easily kill stuff even as a Int-maxed Barbarian dart thrower. At least presuming the hire is equivalent to my first life tank which I have parked at 30, that's functionally immortal in most quests at low Reaper.

They should be at least able to tank or heal effectively at elite & r1. They are functionally useless. Hirelings are absolutely supposed to be for soloing. They should be geared and just as powerful as any decent player, otherwise they have very little functional use. Why bother if they’re dead quickly? Waste of DDOP.

They can heal effectively at Elite/R1, quite easily lol. Don't expect them to frontline and you'll be fine

Why are you buying them with DDO points? They're available for platinum at many locations. And when you're saying 2k plat for one, how can you argue it should be as good as a player?

And again, if they can tank in R1 why would anyone ever play a tank?

“That's like saying you can't play a Warlock without temp HP if you want to live. Sure, it's an easy option but there are alternatives. Like Toasters, UMD, or twisting heals. Or multiclass. Giving Wizards a tank tree would (IMO) defeat the whole purpose of the class, and would significantly lessen class diversity and ruin much of the cool parts about DDO (like DIFFERENT CHARACTERS BEING DIFFERENT).”

I see your line of thinking, but artificers, for instance, functionally get machine guns, bombs, AND hit points AND better armor, AND massive healing, AND condition immunities (race based) — none of which applies to wizard casters. We still have to deal with crappy AC, hit points, etc... but the ability to USE MAGIC better than everyone else should be a NO BRAINER — and maybe NOT have to Slot a scroll to use it, or have UMD = to Spellcraft or SOMETHING that doesn’t force you into PM for survivability— because this ISN'T tabletop, and you Cant play tabletop solo, but CAN and DO play DDO solo.

Wizard can pick the same race as Artificer (toaster) and self-heal just as easily with the same immunities lol. EK means you can wear the same armor if you so choose. PM or EK EDF gives HP (at least after the upcoming update). And spellcasting is roughly equal to the bombs and machine guns lol, assuming you build for it. So yeah, Wizard casters have all of those.

And for sure, Wizard uses magic better than any Artificer. 9th level Wizard spells vs anything an Artificer can offer? Lol. If you're meaning Use Magic DEVICE, I think you might be skipping the third word there, where Artificers (the magic item class) beat out Wizards (a magic casting class).

You can totally solo tabletop, have you heard of CoDZilla? There are other ways, but Clerics/Druids can quite easily do everything in PnP. To say nothing of how a 12th level Wizard with advanced knowledge can beat anything in existence? Wizards are one of the most broken classes in existence (spell-to-power erudite beats them, but what else?). DDO is a bit more balanced, to which I'm grateful.

I'd rather they improved wizard (and other spell casters) survivability by either adding new spells or improving existing spells - this was always where a mage was supposed to get their defences. Most buffs have been unchanged since the beginning of the game despite massive increase in the benefits provided by items/armour such as barkskin/shield of faith only going up to +5 to AC despite item equivalents in epics going up to what +15 these days?

For wizards stoneskin is no longer a strong spell except possibly at the levels when you initially get it, +10 DR is nothing in epics. Elemental resistance from the spell only goes up to 30 despite items providing over 50 and despite the massive increase in elemental damage. Protection from energy is the same - in epics it may not even stop one blast. So give us a greater stoneskin (say 20DR and +10PRR but with only lasts 10 hits), higher elemental resistance from spells for casters levels over 20, increase the cap for protection from energy etc, and possibly gives us mass elemental resistance or resist energy (all types of elemental damage).

A lot of time has been spent rebalancing damage spells, very little on protection spells.

I'd be a bit down with this, but it would have to come at a nerf to gear survivability for casters; considering non-casters are supposed to get their defenses from those, and casters can use the same gear. Certainly I'd like to see spells scaled better, but I also don't want to see casters being the ideal tanks lol.

I could live with something like that/upping the magic protections because you SHOULD be able to survive as a wizard - especially at high levels, where you should be able to survive even more than a tanky character, and as I said, be FEARSOME, but have many “Guards & Wards” (true 1e peeps know what that is...)

So you think a Wizard should not only be the best caster, but also the best tank? Have you heard of balance? Alright, I'm done.

[Merrillman]

Sure, I did it as a PM because I have a huge focus on sustainable characters lol. My point was that I could have done it without being a PM, but that would have required a few different choices. Magic is just fine without PM, it's just a solid niche that's useful.

Now that Eldritch Knight has been buffed I'm seeing a lot more non-PM Wizards. But if you don't use EK, and spend 40ish AP into Archmage, where will your other 40ish go? Harper? Racial? Then what about the last pile? I did PM lol.



They can heal effectively at Elite/R1, quite easily lol. Don't expect them to frontline and you'll be fine

Why are you buying them with DDO points? They're available for platinum at many locations. And when you're saying 2k plat for one, how can you argue it should be as good as a player?

And again, if they can tank in R1 why would anyone ever play a tank?



Wizard can pick the same race as Artificer (toaster) and self-heal just as easily with the same immunities lol. EK means you can wear the same armor if you so choose. PM or EK EDF gives HP (at least after the upcoming update). And spellcasting is roughly equal to the bombs and machine guns lol, assuming you build for it. So yeah, Wizard casters have all of those.

And for sure, Wizard uses magic better than any Artificer. 9th level Wizard spells vs anything an Artificer can offer? Lol. If you're meaning Use Magic DEVICE, I think you might be skipping the third word there, where Artificers (the magic item class) beat out Wizards (a magic casting class).

You can totally solo tabletop, have you heard of CoDZilla? There are other ways, but Clerics/Druids can quite easily do everything in PnP. To say nothing of how a 12th level Wizard with advanced knowledge can beat anything in existence? Wizards are one of the most broken classes in existence (spell-to-power erudite beats them, but what else?). DDO is a bit more balanced, to which I'm grateful.



I'd be a bit down with this, but it would have to come at a nerf to gear survivability for casters; considering non-casters are supposed to get their defenses from those, and casters can use the same gear. Certainly I'd like to see spells scaled better, but I also don't want to see casters being the ideal tanks lol.



So you think a Wizard should not only be the best caster, but also the best tank? Have you heard of balance? Alright, I'm done.

No, not what I said. Wizards should NOT have to be robots to gain survivability. Yes, you can be a toaster, but WHY??? I don’t want to play a robot to be a Caster than can survives at epic levels. And yes, at epic levels, wizards should be MORE survivable than melee toons than they are at lower levels. Because MAGIC Is more powerful than swords or armor. That’s why MAGES are the big bads (Sauron) or the big heroes (Merlin) in so many ways. This is not to say that archetype fighters with MAGIC swords and such can’t be amazing. I just think pure wizards are almost unplayable in elite/reaper no matter what level you are, unless you have a tank. At the very least, make diplo work on mobs if you’re solo. It’s insane that nobody in a mob would fear magic in the least.

[droid327]

No, not what I said. Wizards should NOT have to be robots to gain survivability. Yes, you can be a toaster, but WHY??? I don’t want to play a robot to be a Caster than can survives at epic levels. And yes, at epic levels, wizards should be MORE survivable than melee toons than they are at lower levels. Because MAGIC Is more powerful than swords or armor. That’s why MAGES are the big bads (Sauron) or the big heroes (Merlin) in so many ways. This is not to say that archetype fighters with MAGIC swords and such can’t be amazing. I just think pure wizards are almost unplayable in elite/reaper no matter what level you are, unless you have a tank. At the very least, make diplo work on mobs if you’re solo. It’s insane that nobody in a mob would fear magic in the least.

You're comparing wizards in ddo to wizards from fiction where they're supposed to be total dei ex machinae. That's an unfair expectation in a game where there is class balance. Just like our characters are never going to be as powerful as iconic DnD wizards like Evard or Elminster or Vecna.

Wizards have several options for survivability but you need to actually choose one and pay the associated opportunity cost...it's not going to come baked into the base class.

Wizards can lock down entire packs of enemies or kill them outright with a single button push. They can boost the defenses of themselves and their parties, do massive aoe damage, and self heal with negative. The downside of that is they're squishy. If you don't think they should be squishy, then what do you want to give up instead?

[Merrillman]

You're comparing wizards in ddo to wizards from fiction where they're supposed to be total dei ex machinae. That's an unfair expectation in a game where there is class balance. Just like our characters are never going to be as powerful as iconic DnD wizards like Evard or Elminster or Vecna.

Wizards have several options for survivability but you need to actually choose one and pay the associated opportunity cost...it's not going to come baked into the base class.

Wizards can lock down entire packs of enemies or kill them outright with a single button push. They can boost the defenses of themselves and their parties, do massive aoe damage, and self heal with negative. The downside of that is they're squishy. If you don't think they should be squishy, then what do you want to give up instead?

Basically, I want the ability to solo (at epic levels) and NOT HAVE NO CHOICE but to be an evil based PM or a techno-sentient robot. If I can’t have a classic PLAIN old fantasy wizard that’s mighty tough at higher levels without having to “splash in” other stuff, what’s the point of having wizard magic at all? It flies in the very face of Dungeons and Dragons and all its’ classic fantasy appeal. But that's just my opinion. It’s not meant to be an argument. It’s my perspective. And frankly, I pay to be a VIP, I pay for trees, expansions and items via DDOS, so I would hope that some of what I suggest gets filtered through to developers, because I can guarantee that I am one of the people who make DDO profitable and I would hope that my voice means something, and gets taken into considerations. I’m not demanding anything. I’m suggesting. I’d like to hear a good reason yes or no. I think it’s reasonable to expect fair consideration. That’s all.

[SoVeryBelgian]

IMO PM Wizzah juss needs a few things:

More NEG HEAL AMP. Enhancement tree has useless additions... Cloak of Night is hot garbage.

More DC Focus. Other classes get min +3 DC at T5, PM needs to reach into Arch to get +2 (x) / +1 (y).

Either Dodge, HP stacking (5% not +30) or Light Resist built in.



Also, really the cores just need a smidge more oomph. Maybe a way to improve them in the tree itself? Like reduce Zombie speed penalty for Corpsemonk builds.

[droid327]

Basically, I want the ability to solo (at epic levels) and NOT HAVE NO CHOICE but to be an evil based PM or a techno-sentient robot.

PMs arent evil. You can be a Lawful Good PM. You're just using the magic of undeath, but that's not inherently evil - unnatural, maybe, but not evil. There are definitely lots of good Undead in the lore.

I suppose that Undead form should break Druidic Oath for multiclass, though, to be fair.

If I can’t have a classic PLAIN old fantasy wizard that’s mighty tough at higher levels without having to “splash in” other stuff, what’s the point of having wizard magic at all?

The point is to be able fling powerful spells at your opponent. Being "mighty tough" has never been part of the Wizard archetype. Squishiness is something every caster accepts, in pretty much every game in the genre. Your defensive ability is defeating them before they can strike a blow against you. Even Gandalf was felled by a single blow.

I pay to be a VIP, I pay for trees, expansions and items via DDOS, so I would hope that some of what I suggest gets filtered through to developers, because I can guarantee that I am one of the people who make DDO profitable and I would hope that my voice means something, and gets taken into considerations. I’m not demanding anything. I’m suggesting. I’d like to hear a good reason yes or no. I think it’s reasonable to expect fair consideration. That’s all.

You being a VIP, or even a whale, does not entitle you to first-class citizenship or to have a special place over everyone else in the forum or the game.

The devs read every post, your suggestion has been heard. They're not going to respond to every single suggestion that's made, though, so knowing its been read will have to be enough. But everyone's voice means something, and its the same as everyone else's.

The reason against it is the one I gave above: every class needs drawbacks along with their strengths. The drawback for casters is they're squishier than melees. You're asking for casters to become Mary Sues, and that just isnt fair or reasonable to expect.

[Merrillman]

PMs arent evil. You can be a Lawful Good PM. You're just using the magic of undeath, but that's not inherently evil - unnatural, maybe, but not evil. There are definitely lots of good Undead in the lore.

I suppose that Undead form should break Druidic Oath for multiclass, though, to be fair.



The point is to be able fling powerful spells at your opponent. Being "mighty tough" has never been part of the Wizard archetype. Squishiness is something every caster accepts, in pretty much every game in the genre. Your defensive ability is defeating them before they can strike a blow against you. Even Gandalf was felled by a single blow.

You being a VIP, or even a whale, does not entitle you to first-class citizenship or to have a special place over everyone else in the forum or the game.

The devs read every post, your suggestion has been heard. They're not going to respond to every single suggestion that's made, though, so knowing its been read will have to be enough. But everyone's voice means something, and its the same as everyone else's.

The reason against it is the one I gave above: every class needs drawbacks along with their strengths. The drawback for casters is they're squishier than melees. You're asking for casters to become Mary Sues, and that just isnt fair or reasonable to expect.

1) Never claimed I was entitled to anything but, and I quote, “fair consideration.”
2) Wizards are UNDERPOWERED (and this next part is key) IN MY OPINION. They SUCK for survivability at HIGH levels — and they SHOOOOOOULLLLD be “squishy” at low levels but have VERY POWERFUL wards to protect them at higher levels. That’s how D&D specifically describes them in the original materials (and im paraphrasing so don’t go nuts). Hard to survive at lower levels but fearsome, hard to kill and more powerful than most other characters at HIGHER levels (say, like on ELITE, where you go essentially from level 32 not even a challenge to level 5000 impossibility while soloing in a one level jump to 33.
3) I’m very glad they read the post’s. That means they’re really engaged, and care about what they do very much. Can’t ask for more than that.
4) Gandalf wasn’t actually felled by a single blow. He was literally made to fall from a great height while fighting a major demon while falling relentlessly through literal HELL where he smacked down into a hellish mountaintop. I don’t care how powerful you are, the literal afterlife can mess you up. But again, he got up and kept fighting. He seems tough as nails if you ask me.
5) I agree that every class does need drawbacks — and wizards have TOO MANY (at higher levels). At lower levels, I (personally) don’t mind it being harder. But at epic levels? Especially at 29-30 they should be a can of total whoop ass. But again, that’s just my own view of what I would like to see.

[droid327]

2) Hard to survive at lower levels but fearsome, hard to kill and more powerful than most other characters at HIGHER levels

Yeah this is the fundamental problem, this is what's unreasonable about your expectations.

I get what you're saying...you're saying you pay your dues by sucking at lower levels, and then you reap the rewards of being super-powerful at high levels. But that's not balanced. That's not how the game works.

You cant have one class with a potential ceiling markedly above everyone else. Then EVERYONE would just play that class, because you can pretty much level any build in Normal or Hard even if it sucks early on. And then you could be an uber-powerful Wizard and break the game from then on. Endgame cap play and endgame raiding would be all-Wizard. So much of the class balance and meta-breaking that has been accomplished the last couple years would be completely undone.

If you want to argue that Wizards are below the average at endgame, then you can make that argument, and suggest ways to bring them up TO the average. But you cant really ask them to make wizards way ABOVE the average, or that's unfair to everyone else.

[FlavoredSoul]

1) Never claimed I was entitled to anything but, and I quote, “fair consideration.”
2) Wizards are UNDERPOWERED (and this next part is key) IN MY OPINION. They SUCK for survivability at HIGH levels — and they SHOOOOOOULLLLD be “squishy” at low levels but have VERY POWERFUL wards to protect them at higher levels. That’s how D&D specifically describes them in the original materials (and im paraphrasing so don’t go nuts). Hard to survive at lower levels but fearsome, hard to kill and more powerful than most other characters at HIGHER levels (say, like on ELITE, where you go essentially from level 32 not even a challenge to level 5000 impossibility while soloing in a one level jump to 33.
3) I’m very glad they read the post’s. That means they’re really engaged, and care about what they do very much. Can’t ask for more than that.
4) Gandalf wasn’t actually felled by a single blow. He was literally made to fall from a great height while fighting a major demon while falling relentlessly through literal HELL where he smacked down into a hellish mountaintop. I don’t care how powerful you are, the literal afterlife can mess you up. But again, he got up and kept fighting. He seems tough as nails if you ask me.
5) I agree that every class does need drawbacks — and wizards have TOO MANY (at higher levels). At lower levels, I (personally) don’t mind it being harder. But at epic levels? Especially at 29-30 they should be a can of total whoop ass. But again, that’s just my own view of what I would like to see.

1) Call it what you will, but you want wizards to be the best class because they are your favorite, actually no, you want your specific spec (all archmage, no PM or EK) to be the best sorry but but there needs to be at least a pretense of balance, you're getting utterly insane buffs to the caster EDs and Pale Master is becoming an amazing tree to go along side the already amazing eldritch knight but that isn't enough for you.

If you want to be tanky as a wizard you grab the stuff from PM or EK, AM alone can't give you literally everything.

2) Casters are incredibly powerful, wizards are only "underpowered" compared to Sorcerers who currently rule DDO from level 5 to 30. The idea of "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" from very old PnP is an absolutely terrible one for game balance that has been rightfully thrown away, Making wizards suck for the first half of leveling while fighters are gods, then switching it to making wizards dominate at high levels while fighters suck isn't fun for anyone.

4) Gandalf was also a Maiar, the equivalent of an Angel aka and extremely powerful cosmic being.

5) Wizards are the masters of crowd control / insta kill dc casting, with PM/EK they can become incredibly tanky self healing powerhouses, your refusal to use the tools available to you does not make the class underpowered. Literally the only weaknesses Wizards have are mediocre sustained redname dps and poor tankyness unless you invest in it and make sacrifices from your casting potential. You shouldn't be able to be the best at everything.


The only weakness Wizards have is that they're slightly less overpowered than Sorcerers.

[Merrillman]

1) Call it what you will, but you want wizards to be the best class because they are your favorite, actually no, you want your specific spec (all archmage, no PM or EK) to be the best sorry but but there needs to be at least a pretense of balance, you're getting utterly insane buffs to the caster EDs and Pale Master is becoming an amazing tree to go along side the already amazing eldritch knight but that isn't enough for you.

If you want to be tanky as a wizard you grab the stuff from PM or EK, AM alone can't give you literally everything.

2) Casters are incredibly powerful, wizards are only "underpowered" compared to Sorcerers who currently rule DDO from level 5 to 30. The idea of "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" from very old PnP is an absolutely terrible one for game balance that has been rightfully thrown away, Making wizards suck for the first half of leveling while fighters are gods, then switching it to making wizards dominate at high levels while fighters suck isn't fun for anyone.

4) Gandalf was also a Maiar, the equivalent of an Angel aka and extremely powerful cosmic being.

5) Wizards are the masters of crowd control / insta kill dc casting, with PM/EK they can become incredibly tanky self healing powerhouses, your refusal to use the tools available to you does not make the class underpowered. Literally the only weaknesses Wizards have are mediocre sustained redname dps and poor tankyness unless you invest in it and make sacrifices from your casting potential. You shouldn't be able to be the best at everything.


The only weakness Wizards have is that they're slightly less overpowered than Sorcerers.

This is getting convoluted. Here’s the bottom line. I want them to be able to SOLO (at higher levels/elite) and have a legit chance to do so. Just a legit chance. They have NO survivability WITHOUT PM or being a robot. That’s the issue. Squishy is fine. Insta-dead is not fine. The problem is they are the WORST class. Without PM tree or being a robot they're not fun because all you do is die.

I do pay money and I find it patently unfair I have to blow DDOP on cakes, hirelings, etc... when a pally can sit there for hours absorbing blow after blow with no magic. My magic buffs are MEANINGLESS. On elite/r1-2. Nerf is fine, meaningless is not. I do not want them to be the “best” class. But they shouldn’t be the worst (at higher levels). I have a ranger I love and a fave soul that is phenomenal and a dark cleric to die for (see what I did there?). I don’t play only wizards. I also have a monk and a bard but they’re 1st lives.

Just let them have a legit chance to solo at higher levels. Just let them be tougher to damage (spells, trees, whatever) at high levels like they are in the traditional D&D class descriptions.

Not asking for best, overpower. I’m asking to have them not be the dregs of soloing at the pinnacles of their proverbial power.

[HastyPudding]

Hmm, I do wish they would revamp Cleric's Disciple tree. They added domains and touched up the warpriest tree, but the Disciple and Radiant trees are still very lackluster (and Radiant is extremely expensive).

[Merrillman]

Yeah this is the fundamental problem, this is what's unreasonable about your expectations.

I get what you're saying...you're saying you pay your dues by sucking at lower levels, and then you reap the rewards of being super-powerful at high levels. But that's not balanced. That's not how the game works.

You cant have one class with a potential ceiling markedly above everyone else. Then EVERYONE would just play that class, because you can pretty much level any build in Normal or Hard even if it sucks early on. And then you could be an uber-powerful Wizard and break the game from then on. Endgame cap play and endgame raiding would be all-Wizard. So much of the class balance and meta-breaking that has been accomplished the last couple years would be completely undone.

If you want to argue that Wizards are below the average at endgame, then you can make that argument, and suggest ways to bring them up TO the average. But you cant really ask them to make wizards way ABOVE the average, or that's unfair to everyone else.

Exactly, and in my original post, that’s what I was saying. Let them amplify potions, for instance. 180 healing points is nada. Not even worth blowing the potion. Maybe up the power of a staff so it can compete with two scepters. Perhaps make buffs actually WORK at higher levels. Stoneskin doesn’t do anything at high levels/endgame. It’s a joke. Heighten it and make it 120dr PER LEVEL above 4th when heightened. There are plenty of non-unbalancing solutions. I’m just saying it’s not fair a paladin can sit there for hours when I can’t sit there for seconds. Seems way imbalanced to me from the magic side perspective. Why not make being an abjurer worth it? Why not make conjured monsters viable and more powerful based on your level? Or at least make them auto-aggro the mobs. Even making diplo work when soloing should be SOMETHING. You can threaten people into inaction and it makes sense because magic should be feared in this genre. I do not want it imbalanced. I just think it’s already imbalanced in favor of tanks and healers, and without PM or Toaster, you haven’t got a legit shot at endgame surviving.