Multi-Patch/Update Preview: XP Changes

[mikarddo]

Reaper xp is affected by;

Ftb
Voice
Vip
Pots
In quest bonuses

The 200% independent ftb you are describing is the specific reaper ftb. You can actually run (ex. Grim) EN while leveling, and still have your reaper ftb. Technically it’s a different ftb, but the bonus was still 120%. Now it will be 75% with the majority of the xp difference being moved to bb, which doesn’t affect rxp.

Things like xp tomes, bb, and more commonly buddy bonus have no effect on rxp.

The calculations based on both Lam and Live data Cantor did several pages back in this thread suggest otherwise. It suggests the reaper ftb is unchanged at 200%. Did you read those calculations?

This is for rxp, not regular xp running reaper, mind.

[Potatofasf]

you solo and only group periodically with friends because we’ve all got kids and crazy lives but LOVE DDO

This!

SSG Developers have to understand that DDO is a 13th year old game, mostly played by adults (+21 in my country) with some sort of LIFE to pay the game.

Let's be real... Teenagers and Kids (could have some on DDO) are playing MOBAs and hype games that can give them sociability.

[ComicRelief]

Being capped isn't the end of getting xp now is it? The ED spheres take far longer to fill. All while xp for optionals has degraded and then I'm expected to run crappy xp quests to fill them or ER to reset them, losing a sphere of ED in the process, putting me further behind having to refill that on ER all while the optional xp is ransacking... again.

So yes it is trying to force people like myself to ER.*snip*

^^ This.

Also, the proposed "optional objectives" XP ransacking will provide zero incentive to run optionals in quests. Some of us like doing the optionals, but if we group with others who are only doing XP runs and they've ransacked the optional XP, they are not going to want to run them. This does nothing but "force" (I suppose "encourage" is a better term) people to zerg. I'm not opposed to zerging, per se, but I shouldn't feel like I'm supposed to run all quests that way, all the time.

As others have suggested, if the goal is to prevent "optional XP farming", a far better solution is to award the optional XP after quest completion, instead of immediately after the optional is completed. That is far more palatable than the currently proposed ransacking mechanic.

Another option is to have the optional objective XP ransacking reset just like chest ransacking - every 7 (full) days.

Personally, I'd prefer the "award after completion" option, but a standard "ransack reset" would be OK.

[mauriciomaster]

Please! Become 5% xp bonus per permanent member !!!! This will help forming faster groups, will encourage veteran players to play with new players and all will be benefited

[Grendyll]

The optional objective ransack seems very counter-intuitive to me. Almost all optionals actually need a buff to the xp returned to make them worthwhile, this change does the opposite. While you are at it, a buff to the ransack and conquest bonus xp is probably also in order, the return for smashing all the breakables and killing all the monsters is almost always not worth the time it takes. This change is clearly aimed at a narrow range of content and players, but it is a nerf of global proportions, making it seem very heavy-handed. Many quests will need a case-by-case review where an "optional" is in truth mandatory. Perhaps there needs to be a new classification of quest reward element, call it "partial credit reward" or "progress reward", appropriate for quests where you are trying to give a player something for making it part-way through a quest even if they ultimately fail the quest in the end they don't go home empty handed. These "progress rewards" would be exempt from the ransack decay.

^^ This.

Also, the proposed "optional objectives" XP ransacking will provide zero incentive to run optionals in quests. Some of us like doing the optionals, but if we group with others who are only doing XP runs and they've ransacked the optional XP, they are not going to want to run them. This does nothing but "force" (I suppose "encourage" is a better term) people to zerg. I'm not opposed to zerging, per se, but I shouldn't feel like I'm supposed to run all quests that way, all the time.

As others have suggested, if the goal is to prevent "optional XP farming", a far better solution is to award the optional XP after quest completion, instead of immediately after the optional is completed. That is far more palatable than the currently proposed ransacking mechanic.

Another option is to have the optional objective XP ransacking reset just like chest ransacking - every 7 (full) days.

Personally, I'd prefer the "award after completion" option, but a standard "ransack reset" would be OK.

Double this.

The game needs more ways to bring the fragmented player base together, not another way to drive a wedge amongst us.

[Astarii]

XP Changes are a bad idea.
XP Changes are a bad idea.
XP Changes are a bad idea.

Now that it 3x, I want to make it clear that no changes should happen. If people don't understand Bravery Bonus (BB) they should read up on it. Newer quests should have better items & better XP, that's an incentive for people to get the new packs. OLD packs should get wrapped up in bundles over a periods of time and be sold cheaper. NO DEVELOPMENT TIME SHOULD BE WASTED ON THIS. THERE IS TO MUCH OTHER WORK THAT NEEDS DONE. KEEP IT WHAT IT IS!


Why are we even thinking of this with so, so, so much other things on the board.

[Shadow_Jumper]

The calculations based on both Lam and Live data Cantor did several pages back in this thread suggest otherwise. It suggests the reaper ftb is unchanged at 200%. Did you read those calculations?

This is for rxp, not regular xp running reaper, mind.

I’ve not had the chance to read all the pages of this thread,

However my experiences haven’t really suggested what is described, though I haven’t taken a complete in-depth look.

On a first time flawless r10 run with a 50% pot going I get around 10-12k rxp. Given that usually with a 20 pot and no ftb I get around 3-4K this would seem to be what I would expect.

[ThomasHunter]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I did see Sev's latest post (which was really cool!).

Two quick thoughts from my perspective:

1. Along with resetting the optionals in an ETR, can you reset the wilderness areas?
2. Would love (LOVE) if we could go back to quicker scale in epics and then stretch out 28 and 29 more. Going back to 300k (?) for level 21 is a real feel good and I'd much rather use my cap level items longer in the progression.

Thanks for reading and making such an excellent game. Your team's passion is evident!
Taleisin

[Jaxtan]

Huge decreases in first time quest completion bonus.

Normal difficulty will decrease from 25% to 10%.
Hard difficulty will decrease from 40% to 20%.
Elite difficulty will decrease from 80% to 45%.
Reaper difficulty will decrease from 120% to 75%.

They increase the Daily bonus from 20% to 25% for Heroic dungeons, and 30% for Epic dungeons.

This means you lose a lot of xp the first time you run the dungeon, and then have to rerun it on future days to get a little more xp.

This rewards dailies and will extend the time needed to level. I will just quit when this goes into effect.

[TheBenWalker]

If the objective is to broaden the quests people play how about dropping huge weekly bonuses on quests or quest chains so you can shuffle quests and packs that are not being used often into popularity (single quest bonuses maybe like 100%) or quest chains and sagas perhaps more like 20%. Maybe loot boosts as well.

[erethizon]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I did see Sev's latest post (which was really cool!).

Two quick thoughts from my perspective:

1. Along with resetting the optionals in an ETR, can you reset the wilderness areas?
2. Would love (LOVE) if we could go back to quicker scale in epics and then stretch out 28 and 29 more. Going back to 300k (?) for level 21 is a real feel good and I'd much rather use my cap level items longer in the progression.

Thanks for reading and making such an excellent game. Your team's passion is evident!
Taleisin

I am 100% with you on #2. Your first point is a bit more difficult. Personally, I would love if ETR reset everything. I would like favor to get brought back to zero and wilderness areas as well. The problem is all the people that run sagas and set up wilderness areas right before they ETR. They get 7499 kills in several epic wilderness areas and do 7 or 8 sagas and then ETR and chug an experience potion before turning in all the sagas and finishing all the wilderness areas. These people would suffer under such a plan.

Someone mentioned the idea of having a special type of ETR that resets stuff and I am all for that. My biggest beef with ETR is that it doesn't reset favor. I would love for it to wipe everything (thus returning first time bonuses as well) just like all the other reincarnations do, but some people are going to want to keep the current system so they can skip past the first 3 levels as soon as they ETR.

[erethizon]

Huge decreases in first time quest completion bonus.

Normal difficulty will decrease from 25% to 10%.
Hard difficulty will decrease from 40% to 20%.
Elite difficulty will decrease from 80% to 45%.
Reaper difficulty will decrease from 120% to 75%.

They increase the Daily bonus from 20% to 25% for Heroic dungeons, and 30% for Epic dungeons.

This means you lose a lot of xp the first time you run the dungeon, and then have to rerun it on future days to get a little more xp.

This rewards dailies and will extend the time needed to level. I will just quit when this goes into effect.

Well hopefully you play through at least one quest under the new system before you quit so you can realize you are not understand how the new system actually works. It's not actually going to decrease your experience the first time you play through a quest. There are a lot more bonuses involved the first time you play a quest than just the one that is named "first time completion bonus."

[Carpone]

~ We have looked at the feedback on optional objectives and how they affect the Epic reincarnation process. On live Epic reincarnation doesn't clear out quest flags so players don't have to re-flag for quests. There is no reason that we need to retain quest flagging for optional objectives, however. With the XP changes we will also reset optional objective flags (and only those flags) when you do an Epic reincarnation. This will give characters a fresh set of optional objectives for each Epic life while keeping their flagging for quests intact.

Good change, but not quite there yet.

Consider adding an option to clear out quest flags (and slayer areas) to reset first time bonuses. Whether that's a checkbox in the Life Shaper UI when you epic reincarnate or a "Wish of Forgetfulness" matters not to me. After two loops going level 20->30, I'll have exhausted first time XP bonuses for the quests that I want to play. Beyond that it will turn into a level grinding slugfest for additional epic reincarnations. Please don't force me back to heroic levels just to reset first time quest bonuses.

[math92]

Previously i got 80 % more XP while running on elite. Now i get 45 % XP? So a, I lose 35 % XP? If so, that's straight garbage... Not sure how will that work in reality. But, if the speed of which i'm leveling will be almost half slower. Not sure about my dedication... That means, everybody will be doing reaper ONLY to catch the XP from the old system (I already feel bad for the newbies).

Even though current reaper is 120 % XP bonus. I think you messing with wrong things at wrong time. Stop the silliness please. You know the saying - If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just increase the reaper level of which people can enter +2 levels as it should be 2 years ago when it came out. People are just confused still to this day. And increase XP of some dungeons. Not sure if 10-20 % will be enough.

Nobody will run some of these dungeon even if you increase the XP for 100 %... Optional ransack till TR, okay... Whatever, i don't care. I don't farm Optionals.
When something goes slow, people get bored and quit. Most of the time i quit rpg games beacuse things took forever. The grind was unreal. Game like DDO, it's feel like the game is about grinding PL. And i still play DDO because the phase can be faster if you know stuff and have some PL.

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I want to also Add something. While i'm taking my time here. Those are just my opinions and my prospective. Don't have to agree with it, it's alright. When reaper came i was excited but worried at the same time.
All those years when i played DDO. I started as an adventurer, with very little survive ability. I very often died and i had just a little power to do some damage and help the party. I told my self, i will have to grind hard for the PLs and all the items and so on. And my goal - to do elites as my surroundings do as well with breeze. That was my goal to survive in elites.

I farmed all the years to get to the point and i finally got there. I was also able to do some solos on elite. Sometimes i needed a help. When reaper came out it was like a blast. Whatever i achieved, whatever my goals were. Stepping into a reaper, i already knew without a party and healer i can't do these by my self. All my achievements was gone since, this is the new meta people do. Blasting through reapers. Elite is a past. I thought reaper will be something, people do when the group is filled. When we have a healer and so on.

I was very excited to do reapers when we have a group. And we have a good chance to finish the dungeon. The reality is, people open group with 2 people. No healer. No tank. And ready to do reapers...That's what i was worried about, that reaper will completely replace elite. The mobs inside reaper do ridiculous damage numbers out of nowhere. Don't like it. I really thought reaper will be thing we do when the group is ready.

Now, all LFMs are reaper. I was thinking maybe we could have something like a reaper tokens. Something you can get while completing elite dungeons. With little chance to get the reaper tokens out of the end chest. And then, when the party is ready we can jump into a reaper for some very spicy dungeons. I don't think people do everything on reaper because of the challenge. I think, it's the XP.

What can i say... With the XP nerf, it will be just reaper reaper reaper (Which already is ). I have a lot of games that are very challenging. If i look for a challenge i can play those. I play DDO cause most of the time i'm already tired when i play. And i don't focus well. I just want to get some XP and go sleep . DDO was always very relaxing game. Now, it's all challenge.

[TheBenWalker]

So most of the people I know who've quit the game have done so because it feels like an endless xp grind. Unless you have strategies, xp pots, and/or groups and a lot of time; leveling takes forever. If this ends up slowing things down at all, I'm likely bugging out again (I'm currently the only person playing in my guild of like 20 something). When you've gone 1-20 40+ times at about a month or two each life, the last thing you want to hear is that that time is going to be extended.
-I think it makes sense to do a slight reduction to the xp in the 4 quests you mentioned
-I think it makes sense to do major increases to a lot of quests in the game (this is far more important than an xp reduction)
-I think your plan for diminishing first time bonuses is missing the mark... the process is already too slow (especially when you've done it dozens of times)
-Any reduction in leveling time is just going to frustrate the player base. Keeping the speed the same is going to have the players focus on what you've taken it away... and players will walk away. The only way to make this a win for ddo is to increase exp results.
-If you want to get me excited about playing the game and probably get some of the old players back and spending money, you'll do nothing but boost xp returns (make the process faster... I would message my old guildies, and I suspect a half a dozen people would jump back in to see how the new system felt. If they felt rewarding and like things were moving faster, I don't doubt many would stick around)

***Like I said in the previous post, if you want players to branch out into other quests and quest chains give incentives to those quest chains (it works for festivals... we all drop what we're doing and go play the festivals for a week). Create huge exp bonuses tied to different chains or quests each week, increase loot drop chances or create exotic loot drops for different chains each week. I promise you'll have us running around like of bunch of lemmings with every new incentive.***

[erethizon]

Previously i got 80 % more XP while running on elite. Now i get 45 % XP? So a, I lose 35 % XP? If so, that's straight garbage... Not sure how will that work in reality. But, if the speed of which i'm leveling will be almost half slower. Not sure about my dedication... That means, everybody will be doing reaper ONLY to catch the XP from the old system (I already feel bad for the newbies).

The +80% has been replace with +45% (like you say), but the Bravery Bonus for elite (which now happens automatically when you do hard or elite without need to maintain a streak) is now +100% (instead of the +50% and +20% boosts that were listed before). The daily playthrough for heroic is also increased from +20% to +25% (epic daily bonus is now +30%). So under the old system we have 80% + 20% + 50% +20% = 170%. Now we have 45% + 100% + 25% = 170%. So nothing has changed when running a heroic quest on elite (and we now get 5% more when running an epic quest on elite).

Just from the reactions to this thread it is clear they should scrap the bravery bonus and just add it to the first time bonus not because it would change the amount of experience at all, but the reactions I have seen in various threads to the changes in first time bonuses are terrible. The original post clearly states that experience for normal/hard/elite won't change (and even improves with epic) and yet people just quote the changes in first time bonus (ignoring the BB entirely) and state that the sky is falling.

I appreciate that this poster at least took the time to ask if he was understanding correctly and reacted calmly. Others have straight up flown off the handle and reacted in anger without taking the time to even find out of they understood the math correctly. If the developers scrap the BB and just add the BB's experience straight into the first time bonus these same people that don't take the time to understand the math will see an increase in the first time bonus and react positively even though nothing is changing. Let's take advantage of their tendency to overreact without first understanding the data to lead them to a positive response instead of a negative one (although then they'll just be upset when it goes live and they don't get any more experience).

[erethizon]

So most of the people I know who've quit the game have done so because it feels like an endless xp grind. Unless you have strategies, xp pots, and/or groups and a lot of time; leveling takes forever. If this ends up slowing things down at all, I'm likely bugging out again (I'm currently the only person playing in my guild of like 20 something). When you've gone 1-20 40+ times at about a month or two each life, the last thing you want to hear is that that time is going to be extended.
-I think it makes sense to do a slight reduction to the xp in the 4 quests you mentioned
-I think it makes sense to do major increases to a lot of quests in the game (this is far more important than an xp reduction)
-I think your plan for diminishing first time bonuses is missing the mark... the process is already too slow (especially when you've done it dozens of times)
-Any reduction in leveling time is just going to frustrate the player base. Keeping the speed the same is going to have the players focus on what you've taken it away... and players will walk away. The only way to make this a win for ddo is to increase exp results.
-If you want to get me excited about playing the game and probably get some of the old players back and spending money, you'll do nothing but boost xp returns (make the process faster... I would message my old guildies, and I suspect a half a dozen people would jump back in to see how the new system felt. If they felt rewarding and like things were moving faster, I don't doubt many would stick around)

***Like I said in the previous post, if you want players to branch out into other quests and quest chains give incentives to those quest chains (it works for festivals... we all drop what we're doing and go play the festivals for a week). Create huge exp bonuses tied to different chains or quests each week, increase loot drop chances or create exotic loot drops for different chains each week. I promise you'll have us running around like of bunch of lemmings with every new incentive.***

The experience for normal/hard/elite will be the same for heroic (and +5% for epic) once you add in all the bonuses. The bonus that has the name "first time bonus" is going down, but other bonuses (such as the Bravery Bonus that is now automatic and does not require a streak to maintain) are going up so the numbers are not changing. Reaper appears to be losing 5% so the overall experience when played on Reaper might go down ever so slightly if we are understanding the math correctly (when the test server comes back up some people will likely test this).

You do make a good point that making the process slower is not the way to go. They should probably just give an extra bonus to all difficulties so that this patch results in slightly faster leveling (and break even for Reaper) rather than keeping experience the same. It would allow them to say that experience is increasing overall for this update which would make it easier to sell to the masses (especially the ones that are struggling to understand the math now).

[dennisck2]

just leave it as it is?

[Zeklijan]

Greetings! Thanks for the feedback. Some notes:

~ We have looked at the feedback on optional objectives and how they affect the Epic reincarnation process. On live Epic reincarnation doesn't clear out quest flags so players don't have to re-flag for quests. There is no reason that we need to retain quest flagging for optional objectives, however. With the XP changes we will also reset optional objective flags (and only those flags) when you do an Epic reincarnation. This will give characters a fresh set of optional objectives for each Epic life while keeping their flagging for quests intact.
/snip

Then consider also making epic reincarnation clear up bravery bonuses, as you intend us to play quests once on each reincarnation this would make it alot less of a slog when doing epic lives.

With the current build it's not a good idea to even consider doing two epic lives in a row, without reincarnating to 1.

Re-enabling bravery bonuses on a epic re-incarnation would fix that.

[Hafeal]

Coco, Sev, Lynnabel (who I saw posted in this thread):

Well, I appreciate the effort to make change. I think the change to match reaper with elite for level range is a positive. Other than that, as a casual player, here is what I perceive:

1) DDO doubles down on bravery streak instead of eliminating it and pursuing a multitude of optional ways to do this, as have been suggested in hundreds of threads over the past decade or more.

2) There is nothing for casual, RP and storyline players in this change. Further, nothing here changes that Favor remains linked to Elite. If you unlinked Favor (a story mode) from Elite, I think it would be much better for more than 1 playstyle. Favor has needed an overhaul since 2006 and it is not acknowledged.

3) You want to limit how many times you want players to run quests but have ridiculous "ingredient" requirements for gear (like Slavers or ToEE). Which is it? As a casual player I have yet to make 1 slavers piece; I have collected enough ingredients for 1 item after dozens of runs. I never farmed it - never started after the fiasco ToEE mushrooms turned out to be (not to mention the length of those quests and how they should have been split, especially and particularly part 2).

4) The change to Shroud killed game cross socialization in 2009. Now you want to again replace the poor substitute the Dailies have become? Do you not socialize in the game? These are the runs that anyone can join and have fun and talk in a way that happens nowhere else in the game on a regular basis.

5) At NO point, ever, should a quest in DDO have its XP reduced. Period. If this is what you "think" then you need to look at why people are not running the OTHER quests you are steering them to - and too low XP is the reason unless you have really desired gear.

6) Increasing XP by 5% in a quest is a JOKE. Honestly - pitiful. It is throwing nickels like manhole covers (even 20% for a quest like A Small Problem on HE - 3,500 - an extra 600 xp is changing something for a player on a 3rd life and needs 3.6 mil? ok, lmao). 20% should be the MINIMUM, especially if you are only doing "base" XP. Your changes should be 20%, 30% and 40%, to start and MORE in some cases - like ToEE. THAT will get people to run "other" harder, longer quests.

7) The only XP to be reduced should be the amount to level for TRs. Seriously. You want people to have dozens or more of TRs but to run a wider variety of quests when they may only be trying to 'get thru' a life.

8) Really, no re-set ransack for optionals besdies a TR? C'mon.

Overall, I am appreciative of the effort but the output here, to me, is extremely disappointing. It seems to me that while trying to attain 1 goal, these 'solutions' create other problems. Players already complain about the hit to running alts - nothing here, and I mean nothing, helps and this could have been part of that solution. This seems simply aimed at a limited playstyle, ignoring all others.

I truly hope some of these proposals are re-thought.