Multi-Patch/Update Preview: XP Changes

[mikarddo]

In heroics this looks like a straight up xp nerf when running each quest just once on reaper.

The exact thing you want to promote you are nerfing....!

Kindly reconsider.

[math92]

While you at it, let me tell you my thoughts. It's not exactly XP related but it's about grouping. In modern DDO, i always wished public grouping was more encouraging for all players. Back in a day, whoever played had his lfm open most of the time. Since nothing was easy. Every help was needed. In modern DDO things are different. Whether you are a player that is soloing most of the time or you just play only with your close friends.

You should always get more of what you do when you allow people to join you party. Why would i open the lfm when i can just blast through things by my self? Why would these players open lfm anyway? I'm not saying soloing should be against the rules. But why would they bother to open the lfm? Nothing they can gain in addition of having more players in a party.


I'm always surprised when there is a plenty of players online and only 4 public lfms are open. Even if you would give 2% bonus XP for each player in your party, that would encourage people. Even the little number would help. Finding a players in heroics isn't easy.


It's true, through the years there is less players then back in a day. But from what i see, there is a lot more people playing in private parties and soloing then ever before. I always felt like DDO is a lot about finding the people to play with. I don't think i have ever played a MMORPG that requires so much interaction with other players. And maybe that's one of those things i love DDO for. I wish SSG would done something to keep the status as it always been. Looking for the people to play with.

It is a part of DDO

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I'm always surprised when there is a plenty of players online and only 4 public lfms are open. Even if you would give 2% bonus XP for each player in your party, that would encourage people. Even the little number would help. Finding a players in heroics isn't easy.

Forum talk actively discourages Newbies from grouping. Because forum talk is about nothing but Reaper - and first-lifers are not seen as capable of being party members.

A Small Problem needs to be on the Major list. That one quest is the reason why people don't run this chain much.

Personally, I don't believe so.
People rather don't play it because it is a strong STORY quest. People rather want to zerg than reading long dialogs. XP-farmers hate dialogs, they want to get xp as fast as possible, and that includes zerging as fast as possible.

People don't like STORIES anymore.
They want POWER instead.
And this is a direct mirror of the gaming world out there. Just look at how many story-driven adventure games like Monkey Island or Indy Jones & the fate of atlantis exist these days. No-one does them anymore (except Indies). The current gaming world seemingly has become a man-driven world in which games are developed to be an expression of manlihood and that requires guns and explosions, and - MOST IMPORTANT - kills !

"A Small Problem" isn't a kill game. So people don't play it.

[Fedora1]

Let's face it DDO'ers, we've been exploiting WK, Spies, VoN3 etc for far too long for us NOT to expect a change. we had one 2 years ago and those "dailies" weren't included.

Not everyone has. I don't even run WizKing. Less than a dozen times in 10 years anyway. And yet I am against the ransack optional change. My contention is that if the problem lies in 1 or 2 quests (if one even considers it a "problem" which many don't) then fix those quests, don't overhaul your entire system. You don't need to design a brand new car just because your tires are low on air.

If people leave the game over this, then so be it. I'm idle because of SSG ignoring a few classes and Trees.

That's pretty harsh. Maybe if people leave the game over SSG ignoring a few classes and trees, then so be it. If people leave over the difficulty of supporting alts, so be it. If people leave over ANY reason, so be it. Sorry, I'd prefer to NOT have people leave for ANY reason if at all possible. I'm not dogging you, just trying to get you to see a different perspective.

Reaper needs an overhaul

Yes, it does. LFMs went down significantly when reaper was implemented. I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think lowering first time reaper run xp is the answer.

[Horst-of-the-Wood]

Greetings!
The following quests will have a MAJOR increase (10-20%) to their XP:

Temple of Elemental Evil (both halves)

Precious Cargo

Desire in the Dark
Graveyard Shift
Records of the Past
Strike Back
Third Time’s a Charm

Black and Blue
The Newcomers

Please add Restless Island quests to that list (consider even more increase than 20% to make them worth playing):
Slavers of the Shrieking Mines
Bring Me the Head of Ghola-Fan!

Why? Well, first those quests are HUGE and take some time to complete, 2nd even the path to those quests is long and twisted. Right now those quests give near zero xp. Nobody is running those today except if you need that favor for Falkonry enh. tree.

[DougGlyndwyr]

If OPT Ransack is permament, there needs to be a floor to the XP drain that is not 0%. 25% is as low as I would see it, 50% would be better. 5% per run, down to 25%, I think I could live with. Usual progression to 0%? Bad. Idea.

[Captain_Wizbang]

That's pretty harsh. Maybe if people leave the game over SSG ignoring a few classes and trees, then so be it. If people leave over the difficulty of supporting alts, so be it. If people leave over ANY reason, so be it. Sorry, I'd prefer to NOT have people leave for ANY reason if at all possible. I'm not dogging you, just trying to get you to see a different perspective.

Yes, it does. LFMs went down significantly when reaper was implemented. I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think lowering first time reaper run xp is the answer.

My so be it phrase was harsh, yes. I was and still miffed at a few responders that slam me when they're really mad at the changes.

I'm idle because of certain classes and trees being overlooked while they introduce the same that obviously is intended to promote sales.
I am perfectly fine with alternative marketing plans for SSG but not when it introduces things like dual wielding x-bows, favors x-bows, and shuns AA/rangers/bow users that have been overlooked.

Even the pathfinder group I play with say the dual x-bows is corny (being nice)

Our XP system AND Reaper need an overhaul. They have for a long time. Reaper needs to recognized as a difficulty setting WITHOUT an enhancement tree.

The POINT is people are leaving the game over these issues. People left when Reaper was introduced. People left in masses when MotU was released.

I applaud that SSG is making changes, People will leave over it. People have invested heavily into the hamster wheel progression and they are speaking out. Trampling anyone that doesn't see things their way.

Back on point, we need to change the XP system, and these changes will step on some toes.

The ransack idea needs to be changed before live, because that alone will create more backlash than nerfing WK optional XP.

Making the XP curve more balanced is part of what we've been ranting about for 8 years, BALANCE THE GAME. Too bad the devs kept adding power creep over the years so when they make changes like this it draws the ire of many people.

Just so SSG knows, my posts over the last 3 days are from not only me, but 6 of the PnP group Ive known for and gamed with for 35 + years. They won't come back until they see major changes, like the new player experience. which is dismal.

[Whaldorf]

Using legitimate quests to maximize XP returns over time is not exploiting. You can’t call it that. If you wanted to define it that way, you would have to ban almost all, if not all, the entire player base. That is a ridiculous assertion and renders moot any conclusion you attempt to leap to from there.

100% agreed - same way with how Amber Temple was being run before it was changed. The game is being played exactly as designed. how is this an exploit?

[Whaldorf]

YES I do, and you don't, you're one the players thats heavily invested in reaper and racial lives

why is this relevant? why does this bother you? and why is it any of your concern?

[slarden]

Let's face it DDO'ers, we've been exploiting WK, Spies, VoN3 etc for far too long for us NOT to expect a change. we had one 2 years ago and those "dailies" weren't included.

I am not sure why people think this. I never ran dailies. I never farmed amber. I never farmed lhox. I never farmed optionals.

the most I ever did is focus on quests in sagas but I cycle through 40 quests at level 30 and don't stick to the easiest 10. I have no issue if people want to do that but I enjoy the variety. I have definitely run for efficiency in other ways, but never this way.

[Tilomere]

Possible to introduce a new type of epic TR that allows resetting of quests? Preferably one that simultaneously allows resetting character as well back down to 1 or 15? Dailies instead of quest variety is what happens when your quest log doesn't reset.

[droid327]

In heroics this looks like a straight up xp nerf when running each quest just once on reaper.

The exact thing you want to promote you are nerfing....!

Kindly reconsider.

Reaper isnt supposed to be the standard for questing through Heroic, though. Its supposed to be an 'extra' mode. A lot of trouble with the game and game balance right now is because people treat R1 as the benchmark, because its the sweet spot of difficulty and reward.

Its a nerf, yes - but maybe its a needed nerf. Reaper shouldn't need a 40% XP bonus like it has now. People shouldn't be incentivized to run Reaper. It should be a thing you run because you want it, because you want the added challenge - not just because you want the XP bonus.

If this change helps reset expectations where Elite is again the benchmark for veteran playthroughs, because Elite is again the easiest mode where you get full XP bonus, I think that will lead to improvements elsewhere in the game, and empower the devs to make better design decisions without everyone worrying how it impacts Reaper play, especially solo Reaper - which it also was never really intended for.

[Silverleafeon]

The only problem with resetting first time xp bonuses for an Epic TR is that Epic TRs function the same as lesser TRs.

Favor, flagging and a lot of other things are tied inside a lesser TR.


As an possible point that the Devs could consider is an optional stage where one throws away all flagging, sagas, raid counters, completion counters, favor rewards, etc...all at once and only once per Epic Reincarnation.
It might not be a viable solution, but if it was a viable solution and acceptable to the Devs then surely some of the player would take said compromise in order to gain back first time bonuses?


Also, if the concern about rxp wants to be addressed then assuring players that bravery does in fact apply to rxp for the new build?
Also, consider a possible small increase to first time rxp?

[John3000]

The only problem with resetting first time xp bonuses for an Epic TR is that Epic TRs function the same as lesser TRs.

Favor, flagging and a lot of other things are tied inside a lesser TR.

Indeed, but if it's properly coded, it should be easy to reset to 0. Favor, quest flag completion and the number of quest completions seem to be different counters. All people are asking for is to reset for 1st time bonuses + any ransack flags on ETR. It should be a simple database operation. If that is tied to favor and flag counters reset, then so be it, offer them the option on ETR...
Lots of people like staying in Epics.... forcing them to TR or RR is wrong and will only push them away from game. This game needs to increase it's player base, not decrease it.

Cheers

[John3000]

I'd prefer to NOT have people leave for ANY reason if at all possible.

+1
I much agree. Chasing away the people who do dailies or ETRs is not a good way to keep the server populations healthy. A quick look at the ddoracle.com/images/serverLoadAllYears.png trends from 2015 shows that SSG should be focusing it's efforts at making this game friendly to new and recent players. The giant +130 pastlife XP hamster wheel is probably a big part of the problem. XP nerfs are the last thing this game needs. If anything, new or recent players need a big boost or that hamster wheel needs to be chopped down considerably. Level down the playing field a bit, encourage ALT toon creation + reshift focus to gameplay and content instead of the xp wheel would be nice.

Cheers

[Shadow_Jumper]

These changes will massively nerf Reaper XP gain for every player.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Reaper isnt supposed to be the standard for questing through Heroic, though. Its supposed to be an 'extra' mode. A lot of trouble with the game and game balance right now is because people treat R1 as the benchmark, because its the sweet spot of difficulty and reward.

Its a nerf, yes - but maybe its a needed nerf. Reaper shouldn't need a 40% XP bonus like it has now. People shouldn't be incentivized to run Reaper. It should be a thing you run because you want it, because you want the added challenge - not just because you want the XP bonus.

If this change helps reset expectations where Elite is again the benchmark for veteran playthroughs, because Elite is again the easiest mode where you get full XP bonus, I think that will lead to improvements elsewhere in the game, and empower the devs to make better design decisions without everyone worrying how it impacts Reaper play, especially solo Reaper - which it also was never really intended for.

Mid you’re doing once and done for each quest (exactly what the devs want us to do apparently) then the new system gives less do than the current system. The only redeeming feature is that you can do quests at character level = Elite level instead of character level = normal level (but doing it on reaper or elite)

[Shadrar]

Personally, I don't believe so.
People rather don't play it because it is a strong STORY quest. People rather want to zerg than reading long dialogs. XP-farmers hate dialogs, they want to get xp as fast as possible, and that includes zerging as fast as possible.

I learned the story from that quest the first time I ran it. If I run it just once each time in heroic levels and in epic levels, I need to run it 122 additional times after I've learned the story.

The issues with that quest are:

1. It's quite long
2. The map is large and confusing; the mini-map isn't as helpful as other quests
3. There is fast respawning when trying to get to the Air Elemental shrine, and you can be knocked off the rocks and have to repeatedly restart that part of the quest
4. There's a lot of crowd control when protecting Brawnpits on the way back, which can be difficult for small parties

Those are the reasons I'd skip the quest. Not the dialog that takes 3 seconds to click through if I'm in a hurry.

[Silverleafeon]

Mid you’re doing once and done for each quest (exactly what the devs want us to do apparently) then the new system gives less do than the current system. The only redeeming feature is that you can do quests at character level = Elite level instead of character level = normal level (but doing it on reaper or elite)

Actually the new norm will be character level = normal +3 (or elite +1) due to the detachment of bravery from levels and lack of rxp/xp penalties.

[Silverleafeon]

All people are asking for is to reset for 1st time bonuses + any ransack flags on ETR.

This is something the Devs should certainly investigate and see what is possible.
Time for a Dev meeting to brainstorm and consider possibilities.


Another turn would be to change some of the first time bonuses into monthly bonuses?

That should be long enough to warrant justifying while allowing all the Epic TRing to have a comfortable reset.
In fact it might work much better to do that with all First Time bonuses?