First Look: U43 Pale Master

[SisAmethyst]

With the removal of Nx10, H, E being replaced by bravery and later reaper, good healing has become more a matter of quick reflexes.
For serious healers, healing becomes a learned muscle memory of identify, target, cast...there is no thought, there is only do.
Healers are likely the hardest roles to play superiorly.

It is actually more important to a healer that positive energy immunity be removed from the game than pale master survivability.

Pale masters rarely identify themselves within a party before being asked, and commonly group with archmagi wizards who do need healing.
This adds to the confusion therein.

Typically a healer will cast resurrection followed by positive energy upon any dead foe (after all a pale master is alive till they take form).
This is often frustrated by other helpful party members casting raise dead scrolls and pale masters taking form immediately (which they have every right to do so).

It is not uncommon for a pale master to receive cocoon (and need thus) despite that it does not heal at all.

In a raid with 12 players (or even a fast moving 6 player party), range, position, threats, and offensive tactics make the playing field complex enough already.

I have tried mass inflict in the past and not been impressed with outcome as it seems very inefficient.

Druids and Bards don't get harm or inflict spells.
I have solo healed raids with both of these classes.

Favored Soul can take Harm but there are only three spell slots for levels 6 thru 9.

...

Next time anyone wonder where all the healers are, think about the end result of this thread and the consequences therein?

Fair enough

Though most content during leveling, outside of reaper and with all the possibilities of self healing, items and buffs, it probably got so easy that throwing a heal on any character most likely overheal by a huge margin. In fact most groups I see that play outside of reaper don't have a healer at all. Independent of that, a budy of mine nearly exclusively played healers for several years and he didn't eventually left because of PMs not being able to get healed. But as far as I know him, he probably would now leave when they get it. So forgive me, but I somehow doubt they all left because of the difficulties with PMs.

And yes, throwing a heal or cure on any character and not seeing the HP bar move is frustrating. And I get and understand it, why a healer like a nice QoL change, especially for reaper, even thou everyone keep saying that the game is not designed around reaper.

Anyway, the devs made it essentially clear that no matter the arguments against, they already made up their mind and this change is here to stay. So I will just shrug and go on...

[Havocthedemon]

In all honesty, theme is different from lore. I mean, there are plenty of aspects of the game that deviate from lore and yet are internally consistent within their own concepts (theme). The Devs still haven't actually explicitly stated what the theme is. There is only speculation and assumptions. Are we supposed to be dead? Are we supposed to be kinda alive? Are we supposed to be necromancers? There hasn't actually been talk about what the tree intends to do, only what the changes are supposed to solve for the game overall (i.e. the difficulty of healing characters that normally can't be healed with positive energy). I'm not even entirely sure the tree is actually good or appropriate (or thematic), because the concept of what a Pale Master is supposed to be has neither been addressed nor defined.

I'd also like to point out that playing for years doesn't necessarily mean you're good (and trust me, I've been playing with people for years who I would say could play a lot better if they put their mind to it). I'm not saying you aren't good of course, just pointing out that correlation does not imply causation.

In addition, there still hasn't been a response to the concerns of the benefits vs drawbacks equilibrium. What has the PM actually lost as a result of receiving vulnerability to positive energy?

Well, I mean you’re right on a certain level about theme vs lore, but while lore is the inspiration I suppose the theme is our end result of where and how we implement the PM into the game? To be fair, what definition would actually satisfy you? Do you want a long fan fiction written in the wiki of what the PM is? Remember the medium, our tool tips and flavor text on weapons are very small for a reason, it’s how it has to be in the video game. What we really care about in game are what the forms ACTUALLY do, and we all can agree that we don’t even get enough info there sometimes, we have all said “a chance? How much of a chance? 5%? 10%?” when reading a tool tip on an ability.

And about playing for years, the point was not about “how good” I am or anyone else is for that matter, it was to point out that I have been playing long enough to have an educated opinion about PM’s (prestige classes, hah that was a mess) and the game in general. I didn’t just start playing a month ago, not that my opinion carries more weight if you just started, but I wanted it to be said since Varr decided to try and call me out for having such a low amount of posts which was cute. Nobody here matters anymore than anyone else and people tend to forget that because they troll the forums often and have lots of posts.

[Varr]

Yes Devs! Please don’t do it! I’m a sad sad panda about being under an undead shroud and being able to receive an emergency heal from the 90% of players who don’t have Harm (or it slotted). Let me argue about why I’m right! Wah! I hate things that promote grouping together and being friendly to those who want to play with the new undead shrouds!

Here’s why you earned special attention. I did mention your 4 posts, I thought it was classier than to suggest your origional account must have been closed for dupping, or asking if fear had you posting from your lesser alt account.

I like to keep it classy and cute, even when attacked by a ghost troll.....or is it troll ghost?

[Havocthedemon]

Here’s why you earned special attention. I did mention your 4 posts, I thought it was classier than to suggest your origional account must have been closed for dupping, or asking if fear had you posting from your lesser alt account.

I like to keep it classy and cute, even when attacked by a ghost troll.....or is it troll ghost?

Neither, and I simply never had/wanted to post on the forums. But those baseless accusations aren’t very classy so you were quite right. I have one account and never had another, have played on the default server since 09. And definitely never duped anything or had my account closed. Man, I wish I did! Jewelers kits are expensive and my sentient wep can’t eat a lot of my old named items lol

[Tilomere]

Hello, everyone!
[*]Active: Greater Death Aura SLA. [I](Envelops the caster in a sickly aura of negative energy. Living enemies stepping inside the aura take 3 to 12 negative energy damage plus 1 additional point per caster level every two seconds as long as they remain within it. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half. Undead are instead healed by the aura. This aura can affect up to one target per caster level. D&D Dice: Deals 3d4 negative energy damage plus 1 per caster level every two seconds.) (This can be cast simultaneously with Lesser Death Aura and Death Aura).

Hello.

Cast at level 30 this will deal 37 base damage.

1100 Spell Power under arcane supremacy/Master of Knowledge/Empyrian is x12

100% crit under same @ 100% base crit damage + 100% supremacy + 60% +45% LGS is x4

200 Negamp is x3

so 37x12x4x3 = 5,328 point aura healing ticks every 2 seconds.

I'm not understanding why any offensive class should have 5k self healing ticks every 2 seconds.

So mobs will take 900 dps, which isn't much from an end game character, who will heal for 5k every 2 seconds, which is too much. Maybe look at doubling the base damage so mobs take more, then apply an 80% healing penalty to it.

The rest looks good.

[vik1]

What harm could positive healing have? Power creep. When the min/maxers start splashing pms in all of their builds, and the devs get around to nerfing, I'll be stuck picking up the pieces on my favorite class while they will move on to destroying another class. Give us some QoL fixes, not power creep. The harm targeting is a good start.

[karatemack]

What harm could positive healing have? Power creep... Give us some QoL fixes, not power creep. The harm targeting is a good start.

Good point. Given the slowdown in communication, we're probably past the point where things will change though.

[Cadveen]

Good point. Given the slowdown in communication, we're probably past the point where things will change though.

At a minimum I hope they took some of our recommendations to break out the different shrouds. Especially Lich. It’s one of the main reasons I have enjoyed playing for so long. I hope they change up the cosmetic a bit for each. Wraith looks great but the others can get an update.

Make vamp look like vampire from orchard. Zombie look like anything than it does now. Lich..make look emerald or purplish or skeletal.

Also add circle of death/undeath to death sla for lich...perfect.

When are familiars coming

[PublicEnemy]

What harm could positive healing have? Power creep. When the min/maxers start splashing pms in all of their builds, and the devs get around to nerfing, I'll be stuck picking up the pieces on my favorite class while they will move on to destroying another class. Give us some QoL fixes, not power creep. The harm targeting is a good start.

That's why everybody is running as a Warforged currently....oh wait nope, they don't!

There are multiple builds way over the top already available and guess what? Not EVERYONE is running those builds...because people mostly play what they want.

Min/maxers gonna min/max and players gonna play, that's all.

[Tuxedoman96]

Well, I mean you’re right on a certain level about theme vs lore, but while lore is the inspiration I suppose the theme is our end result of where and how we implement the PM into the game? To be fair, what definition would actually satisfy you? Do you want a long fan fiction written in the wiki of what the PM is? Remember the medium, our tool tips and flavor text on weapons are very small for a reason, it’s how it has to be in the video game. What we really care about in game are what the forms ACTUALLY do, and we all can agree that we don’t even get enough info there sometimes, we have all said “a chance? How much of a chance? 5%? 10%?” when reading a tool tip on an ability.

And about playing for years, the point was not about “how good” I am or anyone else is for that matter, it was to point out that I have been playing long enough to have an educated opinion about PM’s (prestige classes, hah that was a mess) and the game in general. I didn’t just start playing a month ago, not that my opinion carries more weight if you just started, but I wanted it to be said since Varr decided to try and call me out for having such a low amount of posts which was cute. Nobody here matters anymore than anyone else and people tend to forget that because they troll the forums often and have lots of posts.

The only thing I'd want as far as "definition" is a description from the devs on what the tree is supposed to do as a primary party role. If they said that the tree was supposed to be a master necromancer that uses negative energy to CC and maim and be fairly hard to kill, then we have a stated metric to measure the abilities with. That was part of my problem with the Warpriest changes for example; the tree was all over the place, and without really knowing what a "warpriest" is actually supposed to do, it's kinda hard to give helpful and relevant suggestions. The other problem is that, as other people have stated, PMs are already in a good place, thus giving such benefits creates a concern for more than just lore or theme. What is an appropriate amount of drawback for receiving 50% healing, with all the immunities that we've previously discussed? If the idea is a QoL change for healers, then any sort of healing would be beneficial, no? However, the balance hasn't actually been addressed by devs in a meaningful manner (they've discussed WF, yes, but only insofar as the comparisons to the vulnerabilities to positive energy). Those that are extremely happy with the change haven't actually discussed whether this newly added bonus is appropriate for the buffs that you get in your shroud. I'm not saying they shouldn't be happy, but QoL at the expense of balance is always something to be wary of.

I understand your second point. Just didn't want anyone to draw false conclusions.

[Elisser]

Devs - Thanks for the updates and keeping the game interesting and unique w/it's character options.

Me- Long time player, enjoyed various PM builds over the years. Currently have EK/Wraith which doubles as DC caster lvl30 Drow (among others). 20+yrs pnp player. (I have built many bad builds, so I know the struggle of preferring flavour over min/max, but have enjoyed plenty of powerful builds too.)

Update Feedback- if I haven't mentioned it, I like it and/or have no constructive criticism to add.

1. Cores a) Wow that's a lot of multiselectors...you sure? (Understand the niche directions, nice touch.)
b) Keep the old progression, but drop them each down 1, so Zombie is core 1, Vamp core2, Wraith core 3, Lich core 4, and adding your new multiselectors at each allocated core. (Lich at lvl3? Did I find a ring of 3 wishes? Seems inappropriate...just saying)
c) Zombie gain 10%dmg increase at first, then progress to 20% later at core 3? Or disease vs fort save on attack w/10%dmg increase?
c) Vampyre heal on hits? Remove %, make like item vampirism and make item vampirism work for undead?
d) Wisdom on Vamps? Keep on Lich, pls?
e) Oooh Spell Pen!
f) Core 6- Greater Death Aura sla: nice, but not necessary. Fix original 2 versions to function as spell descriptor please. Master of the Dead feat should take care of the rest ideally...
g) +10 Neg amp - is it profane/stacking? Most Neg hamp seems to not stack due to commonly being profane.

2. Tier 1 a) Slas - great thanks. They still useless vs deathward though (iirc) or was that changed a while ago and I missed it?
b) Skele no cost - generous. 3/3 tier mean same progression as before?

3. Tier 2 Hmmm. I see you're trying to bring Skele back. (See what I did there?)

4. Tier 3 Should Negative Energy Adept be swapped w/T2 Cloak of Night position? Changing Cloak of Night to function as Dark Discorporation instead, and take away blocking requirement as it's only 20secs?

5. Tier 4. Unholy Avatar - does that mean my first attack/spell is resisted, but future attack/spells gain the debuff benefit? Does it compensate for Deathward commonly negating negative energy dmg spells?

6. Tier 5 a) Dark Discorpation - Thematic addition, nice.
b) Ascendant Shroud - Lich bit underwhelming. +2 Int please? +10 Cold/Elec Absorbtion or is that stacking resistance? Why not plus +10 or +20 Neg.Sp.Power?

7. New Spell - Great idea, thanks. Is it negated by deathward, therefore rendering, Rend the Soul, to just Tickle the Soul?

8. 50% Positive healing amp... a) think you're catering to the whingers honestly. Not necessary. Keep auras always active, and emergency hit Negative Energy Burst. (I tend to die as PM just as much as everyone else in HE/EE up to R10 quests pending if I'm having a good/bad day.)
b) Fixes to Harm Scrolls? Greatly appreciated! I'd take Harm as a T5 sla over Animate Ally any day! Or in addition to my #4 comment replacing Dark Discorpation from T5 to T3, insert Harm sla T5. Or Core 6 replacement?
c) At least it's not 100%... :/

9. Your Goals: #1. I get it -disagree- but that's unlife.
#2 Weren't they already unique?
#3 I think you took that away, rather than added it.
#4 Clerics/Fvs could interact w/undead. Why is a figther or barbarian concerned w/healing me when they can barely heal themsevles? Other casters can cast buff spells just fine...what am I not understanding?
#5 Umm use wizard spells? Disrupt/Command/Halt Undead, elemental dmg spells, etc? Use a weapon? No issue just bad builds. "Over-specialise and you breed in weakness."
#6 Again more an issue of bad builds/poor gear. Really a wizard is meant to be glass cannon traditionally to balance out for powerful spells - like holds/insta-kills/being undead/etc.


Keep up the good work Devs, hope my feedback is helpful/thought provoking...maybe even worthy of action/inclusion?

Thanks.

[lppmor]

Here's the suggestion I posted several months ago, and looks like the general concept is in touch with the devs. The idea was promoting a generic shroud that could be enhanced, as well as 50% positive healing (see my Cloak of Night).

The only thing that I would still like to see is the removal of the current necrotic SLAs and addition of EXISTING spells as SLA, such as Necrotic Ray or Harm. Also, I still miss a proc that could add fun for the spec, such as my idea for Necromancer: When you instakill an enemy, you gain 10/20/30 temporary hp and +10/20/30 negative spellpower for 15 seconds.



CORES:

Undead Shroud (1): You gain a basic undead shroud (undead traits plus 200% light vulnerability). Also, each core ability grants +5 universal spell power and +5 negative spellpower.
Dark Reaping (3): You gain +2 STR and +2 DEX while in shroud.
Dark Vigor (6): You gain +2 CON while in shroud.
Dark Intellect (12): You gain +2 INT while in shroud.
Dark Focus (18): You gain +2 to necro DC while in shroud.
Cap: ?

TIER 1:

Deathly Aura I: Grants "Lesser Death Aura" as a permanent toggle.
Skeletal Knight: Summons pet.
Drain Attacks: While in shroud, attacks apply a negative level on vorpal hits.
Negative Energy Conduit: Grants +6/12/20% negative amplification.
Deathless Vigor: Grants +10/+20/+30 hp.

TIER 2:

Deathly Aura II: Improve your permanent healing toggle to "Death Aura".
Spell Critical I: Grants +1/2/3% negative critical chance.
Ghostly Attacks: While in shroud, attacks gain ghost touch and deal 1d6 CON damage on critical hits.
Bone Armor I: While in shroud, gain +5/10/15 PRR.
Cloak of Night: While in shroud, you can now be healed by positive energy at 20/35/50% efficiency, but negative healing also is decreased.

TIER 3:

Negative Energy Burst: Grants "Negative Energy Burst" as SLA. Decreased cooldown and cost at higher ranks.
Spell Critical II: Grants +1/2/3% negative critical chance.
Vampiric Attacks: While in shroud, attacks heal 1 hp (affected by negative spellpower), but your light vulnerability increases to 300%.
Bone Armor II: While in shroud, gain +5/10/15 MRR.
Constitution or Intelligence: Grants +1 INT or +1 CON.

TIER 4:

Incorporeality: While in shroud, gain 5/10/15% incorporeality.
Spell Critical III: Grants +1/2/3% negative critical chance.
Deadly Attacks: While in shroud, attacks deal extra 1d8/2d8/3d8 negative damage (affected by negative spellpower).
Bone Armor III: While in shroud, gain DR 3/6/10.
Constitution or Intelligence: Grants +1 INT or +1 CON.

TIER 5:

Necrotic Ray: Grants "Necrotic Ray" as SLA. Decreased cooldown and cost at higher ranks.
Animate Ally: Same as live.
Necromancer: When you instakill an enemy, you gain 10/20/30 temporary hp and +10/20/30 negative spellpower for 15 seconds.
Dark Regeneration: While in shroud, you can sometimes heal when damaged.
Improved Shrouding: Grants 4 exclusive toggles that modify your shroud (will also change the animation aura around the character from a basic shroud animation).
- Zombie: Gains +2 CON and +15% extra hp.
- Vampire: Gains +2 STR and +2 enchant DC.
- Wraith: Gains +2 DEX, featherfall, and extra 20% incorporeability.
- Lich: Gains +2 INT and +3 spell penetration.

[jskinner937]

What harm could positive healing have? Power creep. When the min/maxers start splashing pms in all of their builds, and the devs get around to nerfing, I'll be stuck picking up the pieces on my favorite class while they will move on to destroying another class. Give us some QoL fixes, not power creep. The harm targeting is a good start.

No min/maxer will splash PM. The self healing would suck in a splash and top of that a multiplicative -50% Hamp would be gimping their toons. Nice try.

[Iriale]

my opinion-

Positive healing makes sense with the new ruleset that was interoduced with reaper. In my opinion, the lack of sense came with the penalty of reaper healing. That's where the devs sent the game coherence to the winds. This just balances things. I have been in many high reaper groups where there is no one with negative spells. FVS, as Silverleafeon says, rarely choose Harm.

I like the changes in general, but I find two negatives:

1- The SLAS. They are many, many APs for more than mediocre damage. They need to see their cost drastically reduced or improved. Or exchanged for true spells. It doesn't matter if they now accept metamagic, the damage of these SLAs is not competitive and they cost 9 APs!

2- Tier 5 is bad, really bad. The three SLAs are bad. The reanimate ally is cool thematically, but using it on a partner is really complicating his life more than anything else. Nowadays, all players and their cats use resurrection scrolls. The same goes for Dark Discorporation; thematically it is cool, but I will not use it for the same reason that I do not use it with warlock. A SLA interrupted if the character casts is a no-no. The main defense of a caster is the CC and the pale master healing is offensive too. And necrotic blast is, as I said, bad investment. Ascendant Shroud doesn't give anything to a caster, liche should at least give something decent, it doesn't have to be DC, it can be a little spell critical, an SLA or something. And why is it acceptable that vampires give enchantament DC and liche not?

What I have never understood about this prestige in DDO is why the pale master, the undeath master, is so bad at dealing with undeads. I would have expected some SLA to help in this regard or a reduction in the cooldown of undeath to death. Unholy Avatar have been a pleasant surprise, although the pity is that there really are hardly any good spells of negative damage. SLAs are useless in epics, so basically we have necrotic ray, and NE burst. Let's see how the new level 9 spell is. If one of the very bad damage SLAs could be changed to undeath to death SLA, in my opinion, it would be a very appropriate change. The pale master should be good at dealing with the undeath

I always found it frustrating that the wizard and cleric trees were the most expensive in the whole game. All enhancements seem to cost 2 or 3 points. Disappointed that this trend is not reversed to match it with trees of other classes. At least, lower the cost of the SLAs, which are not good in themselves.

In general, I like the changes, but I find that you are focusing the tree more for melee combat than for casting, which makes no sense. The wizard should be first and foremost a caster.

A question. When the Druid pass, a dev said there would be a review of the cost of metamagic for all casters. Is it something still planned, or has it been abandoned? Because the cost of metamagic enhancements remains a steal in relation to the benefit they give (this for all caster classes)

And as an added note, big thanks for the change of Harm. As a player of not one, but two clerics, this is a big change in their role as healers

[SirValentine]

What I have never understood about this prestige in DDO is why the pale master, the undeath master, is so bad at dealing with undeads. I would have expected some SLA to help in this regard or a reduction in the cooldown of undeath to death.

They're not supposed to be undead destroyers, but as wizards, they already have full access to Command Undead, Halt Undead, Create Undead, and, yes, Undeath to Death, among others. Why would you think that they are bad at dealing with undead?

[Horst-of-the-Wood]

They're not supposed to be undead destroyers, but as wizards, they already have full access to Command Undead, Halt Undead, Create Undead, and, yes, Undeath to Death, among others. Why would you think that they are bad at dealing with undead?

Dont forget Sunburst to oneshot special undeads like shadows, (lesser) Vampires...

And about selfhealing...

Cast at level 30 this will deal 37 base damage.

1100 Spell Power under arcane supremacy/Master of Knowledge/Empyrian is x12

100% crit under same @ 100% base crit damage + 100% supremacy + 60% +45% LGS is x4

200 Negamp is x3

so 37x12x4x3 = 5,328 point aura healing ticks every 2 seconds.

PM-Wizard is fine against undead already and so with selfhealing, see Tilomere's post for an example what you can do there. There is really no problem with PMs right now. And if its true that the focus of balancing isnt done for reaper at all... Even on a first life lvl 30 wizard toon I see greater aura ticks of 2k+ every 2s.
And dont think all healers are stupid. They will find out if a wizard is in undead form and then a) use harm if they got it or b) just dont heal those (which is fine!). And in the very few occasions the PM actually needs a heal (eg on R10 where your selfhealing wont get you up fast enough) there is a toggle to leave undead form, ask for a heal and reenter form. Not THAT hard, isnt it? Every power has a price to pay. So should going undead...

I really do like most of the others changes coming, eg. the fix to Harm targeting and the changes to forms (Multiselector). But please: not more power creep! Leave that hamster wheel of increasing power of classes on every pass all over and over again. Keep the focus on uniqueness, diversity, QoL-improvements and bugfixing. I would even be happy about a general nerf to everything just to keep my interest in this game, because what keeps me playing is the challenge. No challenge = no more fun.

But it seems to me its already decided anyways, despite what players are thinking... So what? Moving on and see how it will play out.

[Cadveen]

Circle of death/Undeath to death toggle SLA instead of FOD for Lich shroud. What does everyone think?

[btolson]

Some additional thoughts:

1) More passive healing is not what PMs need, and runs the risk of making them too indestructible with favorable snapshotting even in high reaper. They're already immortal in non-reaper past level 7 or so, and have been for years, and it requires very very little active effort - just pop cooldowns once per ~3 minutes and keep the auras running.

2) A strong spot heal is something PMs DO need. Negative Energy Burst doesn't really cut it. It's too expensive and the cooldown is long. I doubt it will see any change though, since it is also an offensive AoE.

3) Low level experience is awful as a PM. Ever try to play as a Level 3 zombie? It's a nightmare. Your only healing source is lesser death aura, which is 1d4 x ~1.5 (assuming roughly 50 spellpower at L3) per 3 seconds (tooltip has always been wrong re: per 2 seconds).

4) Focusing on Negative Damage DPS seems futile. There aren't any really good spells for this, and one new single target DoT isn't going to change that much. The SLAs are very weak compared to what a sorc can do at high levels (which does not rely heavily on SLAs), and the AP required to get them puts you at a strong disadvantage defensively (also unlike sorcs, whose trees are mainly junked up with metamagic enhancers, useless skill/resistance bonuses and some other weak stuff).


Recommendations:
Get rid of Greater Death Aura. Add something more interesting in the capstone. Perhaps make it change your Shroud to a sort of aura, granting all party members 50% negative healing vulnerability, some fortification, and some lesser benefit dependent upon your specific shroud. Now your auras heal everyone and you're a definite group asset even if you're DPSer instead of DCer.

Add a new spell at level 1 or 2 that offers negative self healing. Or re-tool Necrotic Touch to be a self heal, or have it grant 2 SLAs (one offensive as on live, one for self healing). This is massive low level experience QoL.

If negative DPS is really going to be a primary thing, then it needs more beefing up. An assortment of possibles:
-Have the auras deal more damage (but not more healing).
-Add a new AoE spell with stronger dice, equal to DBF at least (or acid well if you want to really ensure some viability).
-Have instakills proc AoE negative damage regardless of whether the target dies.
-Bring in some procs on negative damage, like crippling/fatigue that work on undead as well as the living.

[lppmor]

-Add a new AoE spell with stronger dice, equal to DBF at least (or acid well if you want to really ensure some viability).

Why not update the dice of Horrid Wilting to 1d6+8 and make it negative?

[Ulfo]

Why not update the dice of Horrid Wilting to 1d6+8 and make it negative?

Because untyped is much much better? 8)