First Look: U43 Pale Master

[Lynnabel]

Circle of Malevolence

Bingo bango bongo, that's the one.

[Gratch]

Both Heal and Harm have a max range of 30, which is our standard for spells. Is that not what you are experiencing?

Harm has always been forward arc and touch range tmk. Many bouncy PM's have not been harmed* due to moving outside of touch range.

*harmed in an enjoyable manner.

[Cadveen]

Harm has always been forward arc and touch range tmk. Many bouncy PM's have not been harmed* due to moving outside of touch range.

*harmed in an enjoyable manner.

Harm is also the only way to remove stat dmg from palemasters so the circle of hatred/malevolence are awesome items

[SirValentine]

Before someone asks, by the way, I did also change the facing requirements of Improved Harm from that one MoD raid item whose name escapes me

What about Inflict and Mass Inflict spells?

[bracelet]

Both Heal and Harm have a max range of 30, which is our standard for spells. Is that not what you are experiencing?e

Harm is touch. It can't be cast at range. Combined with the facing requirement, it was almost impossible to use. Even removing the facing requirement, it will still be very difficult to use.

[SirValentine]

Harm has always been forward arc and touch range tmk.

Nope. I used to play a Cleric extensively, and Harm (and Mass Inflict spells) did not have touch range. Perhaps you're thinking the single-target Inflict spells?

Harm is touch. It can't be cast at range.

Unless the range got nerfed since "Domains" came out, which is when I gave up on Cleric, that's not accurate.

[Silverleafeon]

Nope. I used to play a Cleric extensively, and Harm (and Mass Inflict spells) did not have touch range. Perhaps you're thinking the single-target Inflict spells?

This.

Last I played thus classes and actually cared about pale master dying, harm was the same range as heal, but harm had facing issues.
Inflict was touch range and facing issues.
Mass Inflict was normal range and facing issues.

It was the facing requirement that hurt, not knowing exactly where the pale master was to turn and face only to have the pale master duck behind a pillar then race across the battle jumping over your head the moment you finally got the harm spell cast thereby causing said spell to fail as slightly behind you is facing error....

[SisAmethyst]

And I still think that you, and the others, are too much afraid of / making too much noise for something that is not more than a welcome QoL to help people play together , no matter the class/race/enhancements etc...

And sure you are welcome to voice your concerns but what is not okay is to use false and very wrong arguments (like the lore), because like he said :




Also :

Well let's see, your quote actually says nothing about lore, but if you so must, replace lore by thematically or gut feeling and my gut feeling is perfectly valid and right to me personally, even if it is outright false to anyone else

In fact the D&D 3.5 rules for heal state clearly that heal act like harm on undead (meaning you get HP subtracted instead of added):
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm

Granted the 5th edition rules changed them to not doing anything at all:
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Heal#content

And yes I am fully aware that DDO is not 1:1 D&D but it has its roots in it nevertheless, so forgive me that I point to those as a reference base other than my gut feeling. Indeed as a fact, based on those a rules Warforged don't get healed by them either, but I will get to that point later.

Far more important for me are however following points:
1. It is inconsistent: If I cast heal on any NPC undead in the game it gets damaged. If I cast the same spell on an undead player he gets now healed? If so then I demand that my regular player now get healed for 50% by casting harm on me!
2. QoL improvements are good, but they have to be in reasonable boundaries. Otherwise, next thing we know an iron golem isn't healed by fire anymore, because players got frustrated when they were hitting them with their barovian weapons!
3. While apparently downplayed as only a band-aid, long-standing requests like the line of sight target issue of harm or different HP bar color do not get addressed.

Essentially Pale masters now can have the cake and eating it: being able to be healed from both harm and heal. While Warforged can be repaired and healed you have to (a) pay for them and (b) you can either choose Healer's Friend (heal amp) or Mechanist (Repair amp) while the PM seems to actually be able to benefit from both and essentially for free.

Last but not least I am not sure it will actually solve the 'Oh **** moments' when the healer in the group sees the HP bar of the PM drop below 10%. Because either a heal of 50% won't do squat as with the next triple hit of the ogres club or the next tick of the 10 stacks champion DoT, those HP are gone in the next second anyway, or he can sufficient enough heal himself anyway.
Don't get me wrong, playing my healer I am by times frustrated if I try to throw a heal at a fellow PM and his bar just doesn't move. So yes, it might make life for a healer easier. After all as a glass canon you may ditch out a good amount of damage but you should know that you can't necessarily tank at the same time. On the other hand, I have harm slotted as a healer anyway. So if I know there is a PM in the party I will try to throw him a harm instead anyway as it is much more efficient and on a different spell timer. It then irks me far more if I can't cast because of line of sight of my target!

I personally just think this change might be a sledgehammer attempt to fix something that wasn't as broken as advertised, ghost banning it in the process instead of:
- give HP bars of MP a different color to make it more obvious to anyone that this player is in an undead form (because as a healer I still prefer to cast harm for 100% then a heal for 50%)
- fix the line of sight issue of the harm spells (I mean for what purpose do we have those spells anyway other than healing PMs?)
- optionally add a higher-level single-target arcane spell to mages (like reconstruction for warforges) which a PM can cast on himself as an alternative to negative energy burst (can be easier scaled by sp cost and cooldown)

[Lynnabel]

Essentially Pale masters now can have the cake and eating it: being able to be healed from both harm and heal. While Warforged can be repaired and healed you have to (a) pay for them and (b) you can either choose Healer's Friend (heal amp) or Mechanist (Repair amp) while the PM seems to actually be able to benefit from both and essentially for free.

Warforged start with 50% base, just like PM will, unless I am misunderstanding you.

[SisAmethyst]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out!

This I name a QoL improvement for healing PM, which I hope also apply to the inflict wounds spells!

Any thoughts on adding harm scrolls to vendors? We have heal and reconstruct after all.

This would be a nice thing!

[SisAmethyst]

Warforged start with 50% base, just like PM will, unless I am misunderstanding you.

Yes, correct, but (a) you have to pay for them and (b) you can either choose improving healing or improve repair. A PM if I got this right can have both, improved neg amp and heal amp. Further, the PM can cast a bubble surrounding him that is healing him each tick, while (unless you play an arti with repair dog) a warforged can't. In short, my main beef is there doesn't seem to be a trade-off for the PM but only a win-win.

[Hobgoblin]

Yes, correct, but (a) you have to pay for them and (b) you can either choose improving healing or improve repair. A PM if I got this right can have both, improved neg amp and heal amp. Further, the PM can cast a bubble surrounding him that is healing him each tick, while (unless you play an arti with repair dog) a warforged can't. In short, my main beef is there doesn't seem to be a trade-off for the PM but only a win-win.

they can with mastermaker iirc

[Lynnabel]

Yes, correct, but (a) you have to pay for them

Neither of these archetypes have a cost associated with the 50% penalty. Warforged can reduce the penalty for Action Points, but PM can not. I genuinely do not understand what you are trying to say, I'm sorry

[rabidfox]

Overall this looks pretty darn good. The only thing I would've hoped for extra would've been a harm SLA (or addition of it to the spellbook as a non-SLA) but that's like icing on the cake.

[bracelet]

Unless the range got nerfed since "Domains" came out, which is when I gave up on Cleric, that's not accurate.

I haven't tried casting Harm since domains came out. If it was changed at that point in time, my statement is wrong. The Wiki still agrees with me, but it could be as outdated as me.

[Cadveen]

Yes, correct, but (a) you have to pay for them and (b) you can either choose improving healing or improve repair. A PM if I got this right can have both, improved neg amp and heal amp. Further, the PM can cast a bubble surrounding him that is healing him each tick, while (unless you play an arti with repair dog) a warforged can't. In short, my main beef is there doesn't seem to be a trade-off for the PM but only a win-win.

The warforge can be a palemaster as well?

[Varr]

The warforge can be a palemaster as well?

Of course. And The PM Vamp Warforged can be self healing with Neg Energy, 50% healed with Positive Energy, and Id assume, still self repair at 100%. Triple winner! Since its just a shroud and all, sure Repair still works...….penetrating in deep to heal and all.

Lucky robots! They get it all!

[jskinner937]

Neither of these archetypes have a cost associated with the 50% penalty. Warforged can reduce the penalty for Action Points, but PM can not. I genuinely do not understand what you are trying to say, I'm sorry

Haters Lynn...that is all it is.

But in all seriousness...

WF have to give up repair amp for more positive healing amp or vice versa. PM net gain is 50% positive heal amp...with no downside compared to current state might be the argument.

Maybe compromise by giving a toggle as I previously suggested...

Toggle on to become only half undead and receive 50% positive healing but lose 50% negative healing and receive no penalty from light damage. Then remove the enhancement that removes the penalty from light damage.
Toggle off to become full undead and receive 0% positive healing but gain 100% negative healing effects, and receive penalty damage from light damage (dependant on form). Vamp 400%, Lich/Zombie/Wraith 200%.

Or you could even have the first option only give 75% negative healing effects instead of 50%.

This is easier to accept as far as lore and probably appeases everyone and gives them a choice to play the way they want.


And for the love of God....please give lich from necro alacrity in its capstone or cold spellpower or something to make it viable.

[Lynnabel]

Of course. And The PM Vamp Warforged can be self healing with Neg Energy, 50% healed with Positive Energy, and Id assume, still self repair at 100%.

Sorry, Undead Traits actually supercede Warforged ones. If you are in an Undead Shroud, you will take 100% Negative, 50% Positive, and 0% Repair. Contrast that to Warforged, who take 0% Negative, 50% Positive, and 100% Repair

[Varr]

Sorry, Undead Traits actually supercede Warforged ones. If you are in an Undead Shroud, you will take 100% Negative, 50% Positive, and 0% Repair. Contrast that to Warforged, who take 0% Negative, 50% Positive, and 100% Repair

Lol, I win. Anyway, keep up the good work! Funny stuff!

If all the arguments about this change being theme/lore consistent before (from the playerbase) about "your inside a shroud and the positive energy healing can penetrate and partially be effective, because the shroud doesn't change you" were accurate...…….WF PMs would be able to still repair.