First Look: U43 Pale Master

[Indoran]

While I appreciate the attention you're giving to pale masters, how about some QoL fixes instead of all the power creep?

1) PMs shouldn't be healed by positive energy. I think having a greater death aura + death aura + lesser death aura + neg energy burst should be plenty. Otherwise, you'll probably see a new tank meta with undead for the immunities and healing + positive healing, which you'll then have to nerf later hurting those who actually like playing PMs.

try that in r10 lol

[Requiro]

Same as it is in the OP of this thread. Why do you ask?

Because it was not clear (at least for me), did you remove it and replace it with the USP. So Cores now give +5 Negative Spell Power +5 Universal Spell Power and +3 Negative Healing Amplification per Core?

[PublicEnemy]

Quick changes round-up:

We're dropping the incorp % of Wraith form. 10% base form, 10% core 3-4-5 choice (Ghost in the Wind), 5% Ascendant Shroud for a total of 25% instead of 35% like it is on live. From our discussions and what feedback you guys have given, it is very clear that the current Incorp % as it stands on live is high enough to outweigh almost every other form's benefits, and we are going to reign that in for this update.

We're raising the Negative Spell Power available in the cores. Previously, with 40 points in PM, you'd end up with (40 * .75) 30 Negative and 30 Universal Spell Power, and the cores we wrote together only covered 18 of that. The Cores are being changed to provide 5 Negative and 5 Universal Spell Power each, bringing the numbers for a full tree up to the same for a 40 point investment*.

Deathly Tough is being changed from 15 HP to 25 HP and 5 PRR.

Haunting in the Dark is picking up an additional Sneak Attack die in addition to its +2 Assassinate DC.

Lich form's Base and Ascendant Form is going from 5 Negative Spell Power to 10 Negative Spell Power, for a total of +20 Negative Spell Power in Ascendant Lich.

Zombie Form is getting +2 Strength in addition to its current benefits.




* Yes - I am aware the capstone is the 41st point.

Overall, not too bad, Deathly tough could use more PRR and less hp...like 20/10 (20hp, 10 prr)

Great news for the added sneak die on Haunting in the dark

Sad for the wraith, yeah, but what do you want? Can't always win.
Maybe add some Max dex armor bonus (especially light and maybe medium) and keep the passive ability for the wraith to hit incorporeal (without having to spend one of your shroud upgrade for this...) to help the poor ghost...?
Or to the very least upgrade Unhallowed touch and give it something more substantial to it along with ghost touch....like another sneak die or a small fort/dodge bypass?

[Xgya]

That's still 30% incorp if you take the 5% stacking incorp core in EK, though, right?

Too bad that -20% attack speed pretty much makes Zombie incompatible with EK though - I'm assuming the 20% bonus damage doesnt affect Spellsword procs

For heroics, if you're using a 2handed weapon for the cleaves, the naturally slow weapon of choice loves more base damage.
It's not very compatible with spellsword, because attack speed reigns supreme in that department, but it's not entirely insignificant either.

[slarden]

Quick changes round-up:

We're dropping the incorp % of Wraith form. 10% base form, 10% core 3-4-5 choice (Ghost in the Wind), 5% Ascendant Shroud for a total of 25% instead of 35% like it is on live. From our discussions and what feedback you guys have given, it is very clear that the current Incorp % as it stands on live is high enough to outweigh almost every other form's benefits, and we are going to reign that in for this update.

We're raising the Negative Spell Power available in the cores. Previously, with 40 points in PM, you'd end up with (40 * .75) 30 Negative and 30 Universal Spell Power, and the cores we wrote together only covered 18 of that. The Cores are being changed to provide 5 Negative and 5 Universal Spell Power each, bringing the numbers for a full tree up to the same for a 40 point investment*.
.

I think the 35% incorporeal was fine and never OP in the past because it wasn't paired with max dc as it is now. Lich was the best dc caster, wraith had the best defenses. I am not sure why you think you need to offer incorporeal to lich form and the highest dc to wraith, but I'll roll with whatever you roll out.

Since you are reducing the incorporeal it would be great if you fix knockdown immunity for floating forms (wraith and shadow form) so it works as it once did. It's been broken for a few years. The wiki thinks it still works which is wrong.

Although I felt I have given numerous flavor ideas can you please cover the rationale of why warlock gets a finger of death SLA but palemaster does not. And evards?....

My wizard would like these spells and my SE warlock would like energy drain and the extra 7.5 DC +5 feats a wizard has. Both would like the heal spell favored soul gets.

They should consider a DC caster tree or universal tree for sorcs. But I have less of an issue with warlocks since they also have instas that target will saves.

You only get devour from SE which isn't the DC tree so there you have even lower DCs. I am ok with the 3 DC difference between level 6 and 9 spells, but the 7.5 DC difference with U42 is too much in my opinion (translates to 35% where DC matters). The difference was 2.5 before U43 and right on target at 3 before tiefiling was introduced. People forget that before warlock was even released they had their DCs significantly reduced in the enhancement trees because of exalted angel dc boosts.

With that said all charisma/int casters are getting a buff with magister so it doesn't matter in current content so there is certainly no need to panic. The issue is future content where a 7.5 difference In DC makes balancing saves hard. I am going to put together a google sheet showing dc potential by class because there is this mythology that divines are way behind on DC.

Hurl is a very unique spell for sure, but the dc is very low and you must target very selectively. With a 7.5 DC difference we run the risk of finger being useful for wizard but not warlock if DCs are scaled around a maxed out wizard.

[droid327]

For heroics, if you're using a 2handed weapon for the cleaves, the naturally slow weapon of choice loves more base damage.

Even with slower THF weapons...20% damage but -20% speed is a net loss. It doesnt matter what the base speed is, because the change is always proportional. 120% damage * 80% speed = 96% of base DPS, so you're losing 4%. If you have +15% alacrity from gear then its 120% damage * 95% speed = 114% DPS, which is still a loss compared to 115% DPS for 100% base damage and +15% speed. You'd need more than +20 alacrity to get positive, and even then its only marginally better unless you Haste Boost. So that limits it to SWF, Vanguards, stick builds, or throwers as the only ones who can get a gain at all out of Zombie.

[Cadveen]

I think the 35% incorporeal was fine and never OP in the past because it wasn't paired with max dc as it is now. Lich was the best dc caster, wraith had the best defenses. I am not sure why you think you need to offer incorporeal to lich form and the highest dc to wraith, but I'll roll with whatever you roll out.

Since you are reducing the incorporeal it would be great if you fix knockdown immunity for floating forms (wraith and shadow form) so it works as it once did. It's been broken for a few years.



My wizard would like these spells and my SE warlock would like energy drain and the extra 7.5 DC a wizard has. Both would like the heal spell favored soul gets.

It’s apples and oranges in that regard. Warlocks only have 6 levels of arcane spells. They would never be comparable to a wizard/sorc in arcane spells. They excel in eldritch dmg, which they do in DDO as well. They also are provided other supernatural abilities provided by their demon/etc. They don’t have healing but you can generate a ton of temp hitpoints and wear armor. Finger of death and evards are different. They are wizard/sorc spells. Look in the spell compendium evards black tentacles cannot be cast by warlocks, only wizards and sorcs. Evard was a lich wizard.

[Enoach]

try that in r10 lol

I have, it is an interesting style of play that is not for everyone. But then again I've also played as a cleric on R10 where the group could, but still didn't throw any healing my way, instead spent the resources self healing each other while standing next to someone else that could use a little healing love. You know the attitude of "I'll only heal you if you heal me, I don't care if it drains all my resources to fill to top this single time".

Again, Reaper is not for everyone and playing a PM in reaper is still for fewer .

[slarden]

It’s apples and oranges in that regard. Warlocks only have 6 levels of arcane spells. They would never be comparable to a wizard/sorc in arcane spells. They excel in eldritch dmg, which they do in DDO as well. They also are provided other supernatural abilities provided by their demon/etc. They don’t have healing but you can generate a ton of temp hitpoints and wear armor. Finger of death and evards are different. They are wizard/sorc spells. Look in the spell compendium evards black tentacles cannot be cast by warlocks, only wizards and sorcs. Evard was a lich wizard.

I am not a single-class kind of player - I play them all and especially the casting classes. The devs took liberties with many things and that topic has beaten to death in many threads.

With Warlock people tend to lump all the benefits from all trees and pacts into one as if all warlocks get everything. ES is the tree with the temp hp and it's the weakest tree that's been nerfed 3 times. I have 0 points in that tree and don't have any sort of significant temp hp gain on my warlock. My self healing will be cocoon in magister. As for armor, wizard has just as much access but the arcane set in sharn is limited to robes so it doesn't matter.

The classes also need to be balanced in the game. As I said I think a 3 DC benefit for wizard over sorc/warlock is about right but we are jumping from 2.5 to 7.5 with U43 which seems a little high given that translates into a 35% success chance improvement. That is not even including potential dc benefits from 5 extra feats. I just want to see all my casters being useful - hope the devs don't make saves unreachable for some classes by scaling around maxed out wizard even though I will be one of those.

[Discpsycho]

Even with slower THF weapons...20% damage but -20% speed is a net loss. It doesnt matter what the base speed is, because the change is always proportional. 120% damage * 80% speed = 96% of base DPS, so you're losing 4%. If you have +15% alacrity from gear then its 120% damage * 95% speed = 114% DPS, which is still a loss compared to 115% DPS for 100% base damage and +15% speed. You'd need more than +20 alacrity to get positive, and even then its only marginally better unless you Haste Boost. So that limits it to SWF, Vanguards, stick builds, or throwers as the only ones who can get a gain at all out of Zombie.

Blinding speed grants ranged folks a 22% bonus, which stacks with Mechanic or Inquisitive's 30% Alacrity bonus. As some folks have pointed out for Inquisitive / Reapeaters, only the firing part of the animation benefit from alacrity, and therefore the zombie combat style nerf will be lessened for either of those.

It's also a strict improvement for Fury of the Wild. Zombie + Adrenaline + Eldritch Tempest = big numbers. Might consider rolling up a Zombie swash for this purpose...

[Shedrakzo]

Would it be possible to move something around or make space for a new T5 that provides an SLA based on the player's Shroud choice/choices? I think this would cover a lot of feedback in the past few pages of the thread and would provide a unique reason for each shroud or picking a secondary shroud option from Deathly Versatile.

Zombie: Blood Feast (The warlock ability)
Vampire: Steal Life Force (The warlock ability)
Wraith: Chill Touch
Lich: Finger of Death

[Cadveen]

Would it be possible to move something around or make space for a new T5 that provides an SLA based on the player's Shroud choice/choices? I think this would cover a lot of feedback in the past few pages of the thread and would provide a unique reason for each shroud or picking a secondary shroud option from Deathly Versatile.

Zombie: Blood Feast (The warlock ability)
Vampire: Steal Life Force (The warlock ability)
Wraith: Chill Touch
Lich: Finger of Death

Chill touch? How about enervate

[PublicEnemy]

Blinding speed grants ranged folks a 22% bonus, which stacks with Mechanic or Inquisitive's 30% Alacrity bonus. As some folks have pointed out for Inquisitive / Reapeaters, only the firing part of the animation benefit from alacrity, and therefore the zombie combat style nerf will be lessened for either of those.

It's also a strict improvement for Fury of the Wild. Zombie + Adrenaline + Eldritch Tempest = big numbers. Might consider rolling up a Zombie swash for this purpose...

On this regard I wonder if the melee animation for the zombie shroud will be rearranged a bit...? The general animation is great but the attack animation looks like you're a toy with unmovable arms.

[GramercyRiff]

Classic X is worse than Y so let's nerf Y but X still isn't good.

lol

[Odysseus2011]

Personally I'm disappointed with these changes; PMs were already a majority of the wizard builds; now they'll be all of the wizard builds. In the process of saving PM they have utterly killed Archmage.

[droid327]

Blinding speed grants ranged folks a 22% bonus, which stacks with Mechanic or Inquisitive's 30% Alacrity bonus. As some folks have pointed out for Inquisitive / Reapeaters, only the firing part of the animation benefit from alacrity, and therefore the zombie combat style nerf will be lessened for either of those.

It's also a strict improvement for Fury of the Wild. Zombie + Adrenaline + Eldritch Tempest = big numbers. Might consider rolling up a Zombie swash for this purpose...

Yeah I'm the one that pointed that out for repeaters I also pointed out how repeaters are more than 20% behind competitive ranged builds, so you're still better off going a different route entirely. Plus most repeater builds have self heals available through arti already, and immunities through ICE for arti mains. And rogue mech can't fit in /3 wiz without giving up crit mult+fighter feats or EF+arti stuff. 18 mech build obv can't go zombie.

Zombie inqui is an intriguing idea, I'll grant you. But going rxb means you can't use your inqui skills, and dxb suffers from the speed penalty. It's a small dps gain (58% vs 52% on paper), but the question there is with such an ap starved build, can you afford the ap in pm? 18/2 rogue 41 inq 12 harp 6 pm 21 ek might be the only coherent concept for zombie. Just barely squeeze in the extra spell sword die in the core. Be hell to level in heroic though lol. Slot lightning spells, basically just back engineered a warforged arti lol

Edit addendum: big numbers is not big dps. Sure it'll boost your tempest but it'll penalize all your not-tempest, so long run not great. SWF would be the same meager 6% increase with gswf and haste that inqui has, and penalize your cure heals. Might be reinventing the wheel since bard can already self heal and hot.

[tinyelvis]

Personally I'm disappointed with these changes; PMs were already a majority of the wizard builds; now they'll be all of the wizard builds. In the process of saving PM they have utterly killed Archmage.

This post does have me scratching my head too. The PM pass seems to be more of a move to power creep the enhancement line than specialize it or add needed buffs. If you are going to take the time to re-work PM why not do so as to specialize it... make it stand out (not surpass all other types of wizard). It seems like you are vanilla downing the line while power creeping it up. Of course the latter will get loads of positive support, but is this the best move. As your changes stand, it would be A hard sell not to send every wiz up the PM line just to get the easy, cheap, healing possibilities. Is this game really about all wizards being undead?

For example,

* It seems silly and not very D&D like to allow players access to such high CR type undead at such a low level. Vampires should be no lower than 8th level and probably best at 12th. Liches... 18 or even higher.

* There should be some real difference between the undead types that warrant playing them. Not just another handfull of intelligent buffs and so on. Vampires should regenerate much better than any other player character (at a tactically useful rate). Liches should be hard to kill. Why do either get buffs to intelligence?

* If you want to maintain parity or power creep then buff necro for liches and enchantment for vamps.

* Other things can be done like giving the vamp a wind walk type ability mixed with invisibility... call it gaseous form or something.

[silinteresting]

I am not a single-class kind of player - I play them all and especially the casting classes. The devs took liberties with many things and that topic has beaten to death in many threads.

With Warlock people tend to lump all the benefits from all trees and pacts into one as if all warlocks get everything. ES is the tree with the temp hp and it's the weakest tree that's been nerfed 3 times. I have 0 points in that tree and don't have any sort of significant temp hp gain on my warlock. My self healing will be cocoon in magister. As for armor, wizard has just as much access but the arcane set in sharn is limited to robes so it doesn't matter.

The classes also need to be balanced in the game. As I said I think a 3 DC benefit for wizard over sorc/warlock is about right but we are jumping from 2.5 to 7.5 with U43 which seems a little high given that translates into a 35% success chance improvement. That is not even including potential dc benefits from 5 extra feats. I just want to see all my casters being useful - hope the devs don't make saves unreachable for some classes by scaling around maxed out wizard even though I will be one of those.

couldnt agree more

your friemd sil

[Shedrakzo]

Chill touch? How about enervate

The Master of Death feat adds the support that makes the choice of Chill Touch worthwhile. Of course, you could substitute it for something like Enervation but that lacks damage and potential extra use. Chill Touch can CC undead as well as deal damage. If you want to deal negative levels, then I would suggest the choice be Necrotic Ray since it deals negative levels and damage, though that steps on the toes of Death Domain clerics.

[GramercyRiff]

Personally I'm disappointed with these changes; PMs were already a majority of the wizard builds; now they'll be all of the wizard builds. In the process of saving PM they have utterly killed Archmage.

I agree with this, but maybe for a different reason.

Pale Master and EK are niche arcane caster things. There isn't really a Wizard tree. It's two niche concepts that aren't very wizardly, at least in a Dungeons and Dragons sense. Archmage is wizardly but it's bad so it doesn't really exist.