First Look: U43 Pale Master

[Augon]

PM Wizard
------------
+8 Int from PM (lich,

+3 necro dc from PM

+2 enchantment dc from PM

+10 universal dc
+14 necro dc
+12 enchantment dc

But just looking at PaleMaster,

I do not see where Lich form gives you any DC and it gives the same INT as vampire, but Vampire gives +1 to Enchantment.
If you took vamp, you could get +3 in both Enchantment and Necro.

Is this correct?

[Hobgoblin]

But just looking at PaleMaster,

I do not see where Lich form gives you any DC and it gives the same INT as vampire, but Vampire gives +1 to Enchantment.
If you took vamp, you could get +3 in both Enchantment and Necro.

Is this correct?

improved shroud thingge?

[Augon]

improved shroud thingge?

Correct, the Ascendant Shroud enhancement gives vamps a +1 Enchantment DC

[blerkington]

This is the whole matter in a nutshell.

One of the biggest issues facing Pale Masters right now is that they fit badly into overall party composition; some can self-heal reliably, but if you're building toward that it's at the cost of being effective in other ways and that has a real, material cost that stops these builds from reaching their full potential. While it's understandable that not everyone likes the lore around it, the net effect of allowing half-positive-healing for these builds is overwhelmingly positive for the overall health of Pale Master builds and the game in general, and there haven't been any compelling arguments against it so far in the feedback that outweigh that positive. This isn't to say that arguments against it don't have merit; they do, and we're listening.

Nothing we can do to their potential to Negative Healing will have the same impact; as good as some of the ideas in this thread are, they would band-aid the larger problem rather than fundamentally improve party dynamics and overall survivability in a party setting (and even soloing, really).

The lore argument is very much a secondary issue. It's nice if our game world makes sense rather than just being a series of odd exceptions taped together and has some internal consistency, but game balance is certainly the primary issue.

It's also very alarming that you've chosen one of the least informed and most exaggerated comments in this thread so far as summing up the so-called problem in a nutshell. The claim that most players find PMs unplayable in most content is groundless and absurd. There's just no nice way to say how wrong that statement is.

If you follow that poster's other comments in this thread you will see that s/he actually has no idea about the healing potential of the build, gets taken by surprise when some numbers are quoted and then has to ask for more information. Yet this is the quality of feedback you've chosen to accept in support of the changes you want to make. PM self-healing is godly in sub-reaper difficulties and the development team has insisted they weren't going to balance the game around play in reaper - so where does that leave you with justifying the healing changes?

I think it would be very useful for this discussion if you could give us some specifics on two points you've made. The first being how a largely self-sufficient build with excellent CC options in your opinion somehow work badly with groups, and the second being how building for self-healing (which involves a couple of spell choices, possibly a small AP allocation for neg healing amp in the tree, plus gear) is preventing PMs from reaching their potential as casters. None of these things are actually issues in the game; PMs are strong right now, can provide excellent support for their groups in the form of instakills and CC, and do not in fact have to make any substantial sacrifices to support their own self healing.

This seems like an excellent example of you taking advice from the wrong people and using it to amass a bunch of post-hoc rationalisations that have literally nothing to do with how the game actually works in order to support your chosen course of action. You'd be far better served by talking to people who are experienced playing the build in difficult content rather than random forum participants who are just parroting some slogans they've heard about PMs being bad right now while trying to pass off a huge increase in power via survivability as merely being a QoL issue.

Thanks.

[Blah2]

Here is a counter point to those claiming that 50% healing undead form is not thematic:


We are dealing with a base humanoid race that is quite living yet has magically been temporary changed to an undead form.

This is quite different from actually being an undead race, so the rules therein could thematically be different.


If we had an actual vampire or zombie race, then yes positive healing on thus would not make sense,
however this is "Pale Shroud" - an artificial magical undead covering upon a living creature.

Should said creature die, such a creature would actually becoming a living creature that actually died, instead of an undead creature that stopped moving around (was going to say dead, but they are already dead sort of)…



Anyway, having played Clerics and Favored Soul a lot, I am very much in favor of the changes involving half healing, removing health paying slas, removing raise undead death rot and just watching pale masters die more than the rest of the party when said party is getting quality healing.

You have a right to your opinion and I respect thus, but I am looking forward very much to this change.

So are you saying enemy mobs are an undead race? That a skeleton was not MAGICALLY (your word there) raised from the dead? So following your thematic reasoning a cleric player's cure light wounds spell should heal an enemy skelton for 50%. Yea REAL good thematic there . Just a big fat NOOOO to the 50% pos healing!!

Again find a different way to counter act the reaper healing penalty the actually makes sense. It is an issue. I think some PM s are doing reapers above their gear and/or skill level, but it is a problem none the less since exclusion is never good. Give more negative heal amp so the reaper penalty is negated on R1 maybe even up to R3 with decent gear.

Another option: Give the skeleton pet (which is just useless in general) a death sacrifice ability that acts like a harm spell and dispells the skeleton pet. Usable x times per rest with a x minute(s) cool down. Or something different from the pet idk spit balling ideas but NOTHING is worse than 50% pos healing

[Horst-of-the-Wood]

None of these things are actually issues in the game; PMs are strong right now, can provide excellent support for their groups in the form of instakills and CC, and do not in fact have to make any substantial sacrifices to support their own self healing.
Thanks.

This is so true. Also think of builds taking T5 Arcane Supremacy from Archmage. If you start your Death Auras while its active you got the +25% Spell Critical Chance and +100% Spell Critical Damage for the whole time the aura is up (ad Extend in and you are in god mode for over 2min except for oneshots). Even right now I see Aura ticks of up to 800 in R5 - despite the selfhealing penalty. Yes, it wont heal you from low to full in one tick in R10 but... didnt you say you are NOT balancing around reaper?
Right now, if playing R10 stuff I'm just not using undead form. Which is ok for me, I cannot expect all healers having/using harms on me. My DCs are decent, still, and my job in R10 is using instakills and masshold/cc.

Btw: just checked, if entering a quest non-reaper the Arcane Supremacized death aura ticks for over 2k - even the lesser reaches 300s (~950 neg spellpower, 195 neg heal amp thanks to Curse Necromancer Set) - and I dont have scion of fire (+30% more crit multiplier) or Wellspring (+150 SP). So thats the thing you are balancing around. And we will get a 3rd, even more powerful aura AND can then be healed by positive energy? Asking for more power creep? Here we go.

PS: I'm not a tripple all completionist, got 0 racial PLs and only the PLs needed for DC casting (Spell Pen*9, Evo*3).

Edit: Negative Energy Conduit (3 AP for 20 neg h-amp) still giving profane bonus (so not stacking with Adh. of the Mists set from RL). Please change it to a stacking type like its done with positive h-amp in all other enh. trees.

[MasterKernel]

Why would I refuse to heal Wizards

How should I know ? You can come up with your own reasons.

and make my life harder in a reaper quest?

And why are you so sure, a Wizard can make it easier ? Maybe he'd pike all the time ?

Also, "healer" means *every* party member in DDO because there's no reason to not have healing after around level 10 or so.

Nope. It doesn't.
Being able to heal and perform healing in grop are two completely different things.

So we should probably switch away from spell points and go back to "spells per day" like in the player's handbook

• OK. Why not ?
• Unearthed Arcana still an official supplement published by WotC, I see no problems with the spell points.

And get rid of this 1000+ HP nonsense.

Sure ! Where do I sign ?

Your 20th level character will have a much more reasonable 150 HP (if they're lucky).

He has ~150HP now, without any changes. :-\ But, just in case : Sure ! Where do I sign #2 ?

[Blah2]

or we can just accept that a PM isn’t an undead race, it’s a living creature that takes on the shroud and traits of an undead form as Silver Leafeon explained.

Agreed and one of those traits is positive energy damages you . So yes I agree with you the positive 50% healing is wrong

Before you post id did not say that just pointing pout the hippocracy of your statement

[Blah2]

Blah blah blah. It is not much of a stretch to believe that the neg energy shroud 100% shields them from energy drains and neg levels, and positive energy.

Blah blah blah blah

My 2 cents.

Fixed your typos your welcome

[cru121]

... the hippocracy of your statement

Fixed your typos your welcome

lol

[BigErkyKid]

The lore argument is very much a secondary issue. It's nice if our game world makes sense rather than just being a series of odd exceptions taped together and has some internal consistency, but game balance is certainly the primary issue.

It's also very alarming that you've chosen one of the least informed and most exaggerated comments in this thread so far as summing up the so-called problem in a nutshell. The claim that most players find PMs unplayable in most content is groundless and absurd. There's just no nice way to say how wrong that statement is.

If you follow that poster's other comments in this thread you will see that s/he actually has no idea about the healing potential of the build, gets taken by surprise when some numbers are quoted and then has to ask for more information. Yet this is the quality of feedback you've chosen to accept in support of the changes you want to make. PM self-healing is godly in sub-reaper difficulties and the development team has insisted they weren't going to balance the game around play in reaper - so where does that leave you with justifying the healing changes?

I think it would be very useful for this discussion if you could give us some specifics on two points you've made. The first being how a largely self-sufficient build with excellent CC options in your opinion somehow work badly with groups, and the second being how building for self-healing (which involves a couple of spell choices, possibly a small AP allocation for neg healing amp in the tree, plus gear) is preventing PMs from reaching their potential as casters. None of these things are actually issues in the game; PMs are strong right now, can provide excellent support for their groups in the form of instakills and CC, and do not in fact have to make any substantial sacrifices to support their own self healing.

This seems like an excellent example of you taking advice from the wrong people and using it to amass a bunch of post-hoc rationalisations that have literally nothing to do with how the game actually works in order to support your chosen course of action. You'd be far better served by talking to people who are experienced playing the build in difficult content rather than random forum participants who are just parroting some slogans they've heard about PMs being bad right now while trying to pass off a huge increase in power via survivability as merely being a QoL issue.

Thanks.

I agree, In my opinion they are focusing on the wrong things to cover for the deficiencies of reaper.

Again, people played in undead for I) dc bonuses, II) self healing, III) other form perks.

Of the three, different archetypes built around some more than others. For example, melees used primarily the self healing. Things like shiradi zombies also used the self healing (rip). Insta killers would be perhaps more balanced between the two. However, nowadays I see sorc specs insta killing just fine, so I wouldn’t know. Dc casting is not my forte.

I fail to see how, even after balancing around reaper (wasn’t that NOT supposed to happen?), the main reason why melees stopped using form is not addressed. That is, the self healing was no longer worth it. The new boosts to forms seem incompatible with melee trees, given the power level and the depth of the ap investment needed.

Honestly, I fail to see a rational discussion. On whether the changes hit the mark, or target the real issues. Most of this class passes are just buffs and a bunch of people saying nice buff my character...

Yes, an ek with pm will suck less now. No, I don’t think it is more than some flavor build.

[Ulfo]

To be clear: The max Necro DC you can get in this version of the tree is one higher than the current Live tree, and we won't be pushing it any higher than that for balance reasons.

To be clear: after your update Wraith form have same Necro DC ( and Vampire have same Necro and +1 more Enc DC ) as Lich form with much more appealing bonuses to survival. Give reason to take Lich form at all over Wrait or Vampire forms!

[janave]

I still think the ability to positive heal should be incremental, like 10% per core, or a base 25% with maybe another 25% somewhere in the tree

I wonder how it will help party dynamics to mix Thanos with a Robot Trex, now with 2 sources of healing...

Current biggest limitation on spell caster Necros is boss DPS, and thats it, pretty much gone with the T4 negative immunity strip + level 9 DoT.

I have the feeling we are not going to see many of these "Wizards" joining parties.. they don't need one anymore. Kinda makes their party role a little bit less interesting if they arent in parties.

[slarden]

But just looking at PaleMaster,

I do not see where Lich form gives you any DC and it gives the same INT as vampire, but Vampire gives +1 to Enchantment.
If you took vamp, you could get +3 in both Enchantment and Necro.

Is this correct?

I just picked a form that would give you the max, but with the proposed changes you would get that +8 in either lich, wraith or vampire form and as others pointed out wraith will likely be the go-to form even though lich is the more iconic and powerful undead caster. With lower will saves in general and more aoe debuff options against will saves I am not sure the +1 enchantment dc will be a compelling reason to go vampire. 35% ghostly and a little dodge cap is really good in difficult content. If they fixed the knockdown immunity for floating forms (which disappeared a while back when they made a bunch of system changes - wiki is wrong in stating this still works) wraiths should have that would be an even more compelling reason to go wraith since switching to a backup zephyr stick is a pain and costs dc.

If regular movement speed and spellcasting speed is unaffected I would expect to see more zombies than vampires which is giving a 20% hp boost at the cost of 1 dc and even with that 1 dc hit you would be well ahead of all other arcane dcs.

The lore argument is very much a secondary issue. It's nice if our game world makes sense rather than just being a series of odd exceptions taped together and has some internal consistency, but game balance is certainly the primary issue.

It's also very alarming that you've chosen one of the least informed and most exaggerated comments in this thread so far as summing up the so-called problem in a nutshell. The claim that most players find PMs unplayable in most content is groundless and absurd. There's just no nice way to say how wrong that statement is.

If you follow that poster's other comments in this thread you will see that s/he actually has no idea about the healing potential of the build, gets taken by surprise when some numbers are quoted and then has to ask for more information. Yet this is the quality of feedback you've chosen to accept in support of the changes you want to make. PM self-healing is godly in sub-reaper difficulties and the development team has insisted they weren't going to balance the game around play in reaper - so where does that leave you with justifying the healing changes?

I think it would be very useful for this discussion if you could give us some specifics on two points you've made. The first being how a largely self-sufficient build with excellent CC options in your opinion somehow work badly with groups, and the second being how building for self-healing (which involves a couple of spell choices, possibly a small AP allocation for neg healing amp in the tree, plus gear) is preventing PMs from reaching their potential as casters. None of these things are actually issues in the game; PMs are strong right now, can provide excellent support for their groups in the form of instakills and CC, and do not in fact have to make any substantial sacrifices to support their own self healing.

This seems like an excellent example of you taking advice from the wrong people and using it to amass a bunch of post-hoc rationalisations that have literally nothing to do with how the game actually works in order to support your chosen course of action. You'd be far better served by talking to people who are experienced playing the build in difficult content rather than random forum participants who are just parroting some slogans they've heard about PMs being bad right now while trying to pass off a huge increase in power via survivability as merely being a QoL issue.

Thanks.

This is it in a nutshell. PMs are disadvantaged in one place and one place only and that is high skull reaper grouping. So again the devs never balance around reaper but PM doesn't really have an issue outside of high reaper. The community offered up many suggestions on this that would be just fine for high skull groups: make harm scrolls more accessible, fix harm targeting so it works like heal targeting, auto-granting harm to divines when they take heal etc. making it easier for divines to heal undead. I ran a PM inquisitive flavor build for fun and was getting mid 100s per tick non-crit healing with death aura in R5 and I didn't even have an insightful nullification item. Your PM self-healing set would include legendary velvet capelet (+2 profane stats, insightful negative hamp 43, greater boon of undeath) , legendary silverthread belt (enh null 202, null lore 29 and ironically positive enh 202 and pos lore 29 for cocoon action now), Legendary Cursed Scroll (Neg Hamp 80, Ins Null 101, Nec Focus 8),

So the issue with PM healing in parties was fixed wrong in my opinion, esp when the issue is mostly just a high skull problem. I don't think this is so bad it ruins the game, but it shows the devs either haven't been paying attention to past discussions on PM healing issues in groups or if it's another case of over-correction.

I think the larger dc gap created with U43 will be interesting. Will the devs balance around a maxed out triple triple triple winged PM pushing more people to play that build or will they balance around sorc/warlock with lower dc potential making wizard a more casual-friendly build for dc casting where you can reach higher dcs than other classes even without any past lifes. My guess would be the former based on past history.

Yes, an ek with pm will suck less now. No, I don’t think it is more than some flavor build.

PM is a massive ap investment and realistically if you are investing all those points and gear slots you want the capstone and maybe even tier 5. You also want harper tree and kta as a martial build. This makes it really hard to fit in a dps tree and kind of boxes you out of ek into something like maybe vistani. It would only make sense to do this if you are playing a DC-first arcane warrior where you use necro and enchant on mobs and your weapon on bosses and are close to a max dc caster. Giving up a few dc for martial boss dps seems more compelling than ever to me for PM - just don't try for balance - overbuild for DC and accept weaker boss martial dps that still will beat spell dps.

Warforged or bladeforged make for more interesting EK builds and also have great self healing without so much ap investment.

[noinfo]

How about giving more power or usage on almost unused debuff, or CC spell like
"Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Fatigue, Waves of Exhaustion, Symbols, Fear, Chill touch, Contagion, Ghoul Touch, Horrid Wilting, Poison, Cause fear, Scare,"
instead of giving more direct DC?

If you give more power on debuff, it can encourage some kind of skillful play, not power from another reaper point, PL, gear. Current design just encourages grind, not skill.

For now, 1st life wiz who played by best skilled ppl wouldn't have any way to catch high reaper point, ALL PL, best geared wiz who played by brainless 1 click-kill all player.

Thats funny. 1 click wizards die in reaper.

ED upgrades will change dynamics in epic and you need pretty much nothing for heroic anyway.

[noinfo]

In combination with the magister changes you've certainly pushed pale master magister wizard far ahead of other arcanes with dc. Previously exalted angel helped bard, warlock and sorc make up the fact they have fewer feats, the -3 bard/warlock get from max spell level of 6 and lower stat total potential.

Just looking at things that are unique based on stat and/or class and ignoring things that are standard/common - assuming all classes take a capstone.

PM Wizard
------------
+8 Int from PM (lich,
+2 Int from Archmage
+2 Int from universal trees
+2 Int from festival augment

+3 necro dc from PM
+1 necro dc from AM
+3 universal dc from 9 spell levels vs 6
+2 enchantment dc from PM

+10 universal dc
+14 necro dc
+12 enchantment dc

Sorc
-----------------------
+1 cha from extra racial life
+4 char from air savant
+2 char from secondary tree
+2 char from universal trees

+1 evoc dc from air savant
+3 universal dc from 9 spell levels vs 6

+ 7.5 universal dc
+8.5 evocation dc

Warlock (subpar TS/SE build to max out dc)
------------------------
+1 char from extra racial life
+6 char from tainted scholar
+2 char from soul eater
+2 char from universal trees

+ 1 enchant, illusion, necromany dc
+ 1 universal dc
+2 enchant dc

+6.5 universal dc
+7.5 necro and illusion dc
+9.5 enchantment dc

Bard
-----------------------
+1 char from extra racial life
+6 char from spellsinger
+2 char from secondary tree
+2 char from universal trees
+2 char from inspire excellence feat

+4 universal dc from spellsinger cores which are bugged
+1 universal dc from spell song

+1 enchantment dc from marigold crown
+2 enchantment dc from prodigy

+ 11.5 universal dc
+ 14.5 enchantment dc


That seems like a big split between the highest dc and lowest dc to me considering prior to U43 wizard, sorc and warlock had close dc potentials due to exalted angel boosting the char builds. And I am not even counting the extra feats which should also add dc to wizard. Bard had a crazy high dc but a more narrow spell selection to capitalize on it.

So while I am not protesting the changes - I am noting you are creating a bigger gap in spell dc potential with U43. Wack a mole.

Specifically you are adding a +5 gap between wizard and sorc/warlock with U43 as you are adding 1 to PM and the net effect of the magister change (backing out 4 from EA for char builds). EA was previously an equalizer keeping sorc/warlock closer to wizard, but still slightly behind max potential. I think wizard SHOULD have the highest necro dc potential but I think it's a bit too high over the potential of a sorc and warlock now. It will be harder to balance saves as a +7 DC difference is 35%. 5 of that gap is being introduced with U43.

They should consider a DC caster tree or universal tree for sorcs. But I have less of an issue with warlocks since they also have instas that target will saves.

[leesun]

*slow claps*

Bravo fking Zulu

[Requiro]

Some ideas for additional tweaks and balance for shroud forms with this assumptions:

Shroud Role (1st role is more important):
1. Zombie – weapon attack improvements, quasit-tank improvements
2. Vampie – enchantment improvements, melee attacks improvements ,
3. Wraith – survivability improvements, Sneak attack improvements, casting ability improvements
4. Lich – casting ability improvement, magical survivability improvements

Base form:
Shroud of the Zombie: While in this form, +4 Constitution, +2 Strength, +20% damage with attacks but you attack 20% slower than normal. You gain +5 PRR, +3 MRR.
Shroud of the Vampire: While in this form, +2 Charisma, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. +3 Perform skill, and your melee and unarmed attacks have a chance to heal you for 1d3 Negative Energy damage per Wizard Level, +1 Enchantment DC
Shroud of the Wraith: While in this form, +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence. Enemy attacks have a 15% chance to miss you due to incorporeality, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, and you gain Feather Falling.
Shroud of the Lich: While in this form, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating, +1 Necromancy DC

Ascendant form:
Zombie: While in Zombie Form, +20 Melee and Ranged Power, +10 PRR (+15 total). +20% Racial Bonus to maximum Hit Points (stacks with EDF)
Vampire: While in Vampire Form, +1 Enchantment DC (+2 total). +2 Charisma (+4 total) Your melee attacks have a chance to dominate your adversaries. On Hit: Target has a chance to be Paralyzed (Will save vs. DC 20 + INT / CHR Mod + Enchantment Spell Bonuses). On Save: -10% Movement and Attack Speed.
Wraith: While in Wraith Form, +10% Incorporeality (bringing your total to 25%, or 35% if you have Ghost in the Wind), +2 Sneak Attack Dice (+3 total). +3% Dodge & Dodge Cap. +10 to Hide and Move Silently, +50 Spell Points
Lich: While in Lich Form, +10 MMR (+25 total), +15 to MRR cap, +10 Negative Spell Power (+15 total), +10 Cold and Electric Resistance Racial bonus, Stacking Spell Resistance: +5, +20% Critical Damage for Negative spells

Improve Shroud Multiselector:
Deathly Tough: +10 Maximum Hit Points per Core (maximum 60 HP)
Deathly Resistance: 15 Magical Resistance Rating, +2 to all Saves
Inflict Weariness: Your attacks inflict 2-9 points of Negative Energy damage to a living target. This scales with 100% Spell Power. Your Vorpal Melee Hits cause Energy Drain, inflicting 1 Negative Level on victims.
Haunting in the Dark: +2 Assassinate DCs, +1 Sneak Attack Dice
Ghost in the Wind: +10% Incorporeal Miss Chance. (If you are in Wraith Form, this increases your total to 25%).
Deathly Power: +10 to Negative Energy Spellpower, +2% Chance to critical of Negative spells
Superior undead caster: +1 DC to all spells
Undead Chill: +15% bonus to Cold Absorption. You no longer take extra damage from Light.
Undead Shock: +15% bonus to Electric Absorption. You no longer take extra damage from Light.
Unhallowed Touch: You gain Ghost Touch on all attacks, +10 Hide and Move Silently

Also please consider the option for all TR and new players Wizard to be in Undead Shroud from level 1: Please move Shroud selector from Core 3 to Core 1 (and give as additional Improved Shroud multiselecotr on Core 3). I don’t think that will be OP.

[BigErkyKid]

PMs are disadvantaged in one place and one place only and that is high skull reaper grouping. So again the devs never balance around reaper but PM doesn't really have an issue outside of high reaper. .

Painfully obvious that now reaper is the standard, much like elite was in the past. I guess they gave up on pretending otherwise.

PM is a massive ap investment and realistically if you are investing all those points and gear slots you want the capstone and maybe even tier 5. You also want harper tree and kta as a martial build. This makes it really hard to fit in a dps tree and kind of boxes you out of ek into something like maybe vistani. It would only make sense to do this if you are playing a DC-first arcane warrior where you use necro and enchant on mobs and your weapon on bosses and are close to a max dc caster. Giving up a few dc for martial boss dps seems more compelling than ever to me for PM - just don't try for balance - overbuild for DC and accept weaker boss martial dps that still will beat spell dps. Warforged or bladeforged make for more interesting EK builds and also have great self healing without so much ap investment

Exactly. But then this is not supporting a primarily melee build, which was the synergy that Steelstar mentioned.

Why? Because the is no proper understanding of what constitutes a proper melee build, the foundation. Also crucial, I don't think they understood WHY people where playing undead melees (mostly for heals, I think we'll agree), and how the current update does little in that regard.

I am not a fan of designs that do not scale well to higher difficulties. At lower difficulties, anything goes, so it is not a success in design that EK or whatever works there. Where the game fabric is tested is precisely when things get tougher, and failure is a possibility.

PS - If they don't want self healing to be a thing, they need to give melee undead some other stuff that is interesting and not locked in a t5. Short of that, may as well just trash the concept.

[noinfo]

At the moment Lich is probably the weakest of the forms, Wraith is great defense and Vampire is better casting with the bonus to enchant.

Lich needs something to give it a boost though I don't think direct necro dc boost is necessarily it.

Lich form giving evards etc or +1 to transmute or something different rather than just boosting necro as the devs don't want it any higher if its +1 extra necro it would become the form of choice. I like the viability of other ones now but lich should have something worthwhile.