First Look: U43 Pale Master

[Cadveen]

Liches are powerful wizards because they don't age and are extremely hard to kill. They become powerful through their research not because they are liches. Being a lich doesn't make you a more powerful caster (though it does make you harder to kill which I guess indirectly makes you more powerful), it's just the lich form is one of the best for a wizard. The lich's form is resilient and resistant and immune to all kinds of things. This isn't even going into the phylactery.

At any rate we agree that a lich should be more powerful than a wraith. So give the lich more something. I also think giving more DC is a bad idea, but there are good ideas in this thread. The self resurrection is a good one. More caster levels and max caster levels also fits. Some kind of paralyzing attack that can actually work well in the highest difficulties. Etc.

Only a powerful wizard will be able to complete the casting required to become a lich and create the phylactery. Wizards don’t just forest gump into becoming a lich. That is why they should have some sort of increased caster ability. I don’t think it should be dcs necessarily but absolutely something more than minimal spellpower and insignificant MR.

Change palemaster to be romanced and make their form permanent. Make the avatar look like the lich king with no Egyptian drab

[Shedrakzo]

I personally like the idea quite a bit.

On a sorta-related note, might there be any plans to make Aasimar Forms and Pale Master more compatible?

[peng]

To be clear: The max Necro DC you can get in this version of the tree is one higher than the current Live tree, and we won't be pushing it any higher than that for balance reasons.

Maybe replace the +2 necro/ench DC options in core 3 with +1 to all DC, then add +1 ench to vamp form and 1 necro to lich. Max ench/necro DC stays the same in those forms, but goes down slightly in others, while boosting other DCs by 1. That would give vamp and lich more of the DC specialization flavor they have on live. Also, maybe give lich ascended shroud +2 con to make up for the lost con in the base lich shroud.

9 ap is way too much for an sla. I'd make them 2 ap and 1 tier each, and not pre-reqs of each other. And yes, this should apply to all other slas out there, like savants and draconic.

Unless I'm mistaken, there's now a t1 and a t3 that both increase your neg amp (negative energy adept/conduit). Maybe change 1 or both of them to a multiselector with heal amp or negative amp? Or change 1 of them into a crown that enables negative energy healing and gives 10 neg amp, so you could boost yourself or heal an ally.

How will undead shrouds work on warforged? Will they get 50% repairs? 50% heals? 25% heals?

I like that the pet enhancements are no longer a pre-req chain, and give buffs outside the pet. Would it be possible to have the pet buffs apply to all summons/charms?

Maybe change core 3 inflict weariness into a negative spellsword toggle? Would work just like spellsword toggles from eldritch knight: only 1 toggle at a time, adds 1d6 negative damage per 3 wizard levels on-hit, 1d2 neg dmg per character to eldritch strike, and get extra/boosted dice from eldritch knight cores.

There are 3 ways to remove the extra light damage in this tree, 2 from improved shrouding choices, 1 from blocking with cloak of night. Maybe change them to 25-50% stacking absorption so that having more than 1 of these doesn't feel useless.

[PsychoBlonde]

I'm mostly good with this, but for pity's sake would you guys stop giving the only stacking HP boosters to ARCANE CLASSES?! They don't need bonus hp. *Actual tanks* need stacking HP boosters.

[PsychoBlonde]

9 ap is way too much for an sla. I'd make them 2 ap and 1 tier each, and not pre-reqs of each other. And yes, this should apply to all other slas out there, like savants and draconic.

this.

[PublicEnemy]

This is an accurate portrayal…….when looking at the sides of the fence. Most all of the players that are against the healing travesty are the oldest join dates with most of the pro healing side being from 2014 and newer.

Dude....

[Varr]

Not trying to call you out- you don't like it as some others don't, cool, but I don't actually understand why- given everything else ..I mean a TWF Tempest armed with daggers is both more effective in fighting crowds than pretty much anyone while also having better protection against archers than a tower shield provides, the ability to cast (virtually) unlimited spells, shuriken being a far better ranged weapon than a bow.. this seems like an odd thing for people to get upset about.

Do I think the change is necessary? No, most of the people I know who play PM's are already powerful enough, and I do not even sort of understand why PM (and Sorcs) got passes before Paladins, I have no idea why they still haven't done anything with THF , and I could go on. But I'm also pretty sure it's not going to change teh game or game balance more than it's already been.

I play a Pale Master, so this change is in my wheel house. The Tempest, and Shuriken players can assess and defend the integrity of their impact. I've bowed out of the conversation, but thought I would respond to this direct inquiry.

I can see why many players want this, it makes the game and life easier. Everyone on my side of the fence understands the interest.

Its weird that the other side cant comprehend why their are opposers, suggesting it is ignorance.

[Varr]

Dude....

Dude!

I could have over looked some but of the 8-10 or so chime ins on either side of the fence, the stereo type holds. You can count it up if ya like. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it just is.


From the gut I think it is 8-2 pre 2014, 2-7 post 2013. Giving you Silver the Councilman as a very strong pro at the 2014 line designator, not suggesting he is a toeing the corp line, just giving him his Councilman due.

Again didn't count, just my instinct on where the time line is and how the bodies are formed up. Count it out!

[Cadveen]

Dude!

I could have over looked some but of the 8-10 or so chime ins on either side of the fence, the stereo type holds. You can count it up if ya like. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it just is.


From the gut I think it is 8-2 pre 2014, 2-7 post 2013. Giving you Silver the Councilman as a very strong pro at the 2014 line designator, not suggesting he is a toeing the corp line, just giving him his Councilman due.

Again didn't count, just my instinct on where the time line is and how the bodies are formed up. Count it out!

I can agree. I think I have the oldest forum account in the game and have played since the first iteration of the game. I only post when wizard is involved. The deva never take my recommendations however ...

[Gratch]

I like the changes - will be interesting to test on Lama. So I will waste further space to quote lyrics of the most PaleMaster music:

I fled, I fled
Devouring the space
But the shapeless bulk
Was chasing me -enraged-
Breathing my footsteps
Unsated with killing me
Slowly
Nailing my incandescent thoughts
Along the border
Of insanity
In a place where
A procession of fleshly numbers
Slides incessantly
Into the ironic waters
Of the cosmos
Seeking to remember
The sense
Of the impossible word:
Escape

"Without corpses
There's no war
And without war
There's no victory
My dear!"


-The Girl Who Was Death, excerpt 3 & 6

[Gabrael]

I still think the ability to positive heal should be incremental, like 10% per core, or a base 25% with maybe another 25% somewhere in the tree

[Kaboom2112]

We still should get a finger SLA, unless that's coming in Archmage.

[Augon]

So a Wizard/Cleric build could, feasibly, simultaneously have Positive Energy Aura and two negative energy auras going at the same time and be receiving healing from all of them.
And while he is getting healing, undead would be taking damage from the positive one and living creatures will be taking damage from the negative ones. And he woudl be healing anyone on his team standing near him.

Granted the amount of healing or damage is nothing to get too excited about in a hybrid build like that, but it is pretty funny.

Once I tried to make a dark cleric PM that could heal everyone. the build was a failure. Now, perhaps he has a little chance.

[rabidfox]

So a Wizard/Cleric build could, feasibly, simultaneously have Positive Energy Aura and two negative energy auras going at the same time and be receiving healing from all of them.
And while he is getting healing, undead would be taking damage from the positive one and living creatures will be taking damage from the negative ones. And he woudl be healing anyone on his team standing near him.

Granted the amount of healing or damage is nothing to get too excited about in a hybrid build like that, but it is pretty funny.

Once I tried to make a dark cleric PM that could heal everyone. the build was a failure. Now, perhaps he has a little chance.

With t4 Unholy Avatar, everyone (undead included) would be taking negative damage.

[reywas]

We still should get a finger SLA, unless that's coming in Archmage.

Agreed. Dark Discorporation is underwhelming for a tier 5 ability. Especially when it won't stack with wraith or the incorporeality core. And disappears in the second you attack! Move down Necrotic blast and put FoD there or move Dark Discorporation to T4. Or have Dark Discorporation rolled into something else. Or FoD into the also underwhelming +1 Necro DC boost

[slarden]

To be clear: The max Necro DC you can get in this version of the tree is one higher than the current Live tree, and we won't be pushing it any higher than that for balance reasons.

In combination with the magister changes you've certainly pushed pale master magister wizard far ahead of other arcanes with dc. Previously exalted angel helped bard, warlock and sorc make up the fact they have fewer feats, the -3 bard/warlock get from max spell level of 6 and lower stat total potential.

Just looking at things that are unique based on stat and/or class and ignoring things that are standard/common - assuming all classes take a capstone.

PM Wizard
------------
+8 Int from PM (lich,
+2 Int from Archmage
+2 Int from universal trees
+2 Int from festival augment

+3 necro dc from PM
+1 necro dc from AM
+3 universal dc from 9 spell levels vs 6
+2 enchantment dc from PM

+10 universal dc
+14 necro dc
+12 enchantment dc

Sorc
-----------------------
+1 cha from extra racial life
+4 char from air savant
+2 char from secondary tree
+2 char from universal trees

+1 evoc dc from air savant
+3 universal dc from 9 spell levels vs 6

+ 7.5 universal dc
+8.5 evocation dc

Warlock (subpar TS/SE build to max out dc)
------------------------
+1 char from extra racial life
+6 char from tainted scholar
+2 char from soul eater
+2 char from universal trees

+ 1 enchant, illusion, necromany dc
+ 1 universal dc
+2 enchant dc

+6.5 universal dc
+7.5 necro and illusion dc
+9.5 enchantment dc

Bard
-----------------------
+1 char from extra racial life
+6 char from spellsinger
+2 char from secondary tree
+2 char from universal trees
+2 char from inspire excellence feat

+4 universal dc from spellsinger cores which are bugged
+1 universal dc from spell song

+1 enchantment dc from marigold crown
+2 enchantment dc from prodigy

+ 11.5 universal dc
+ 14.5 enchantment dc


That seems like a big split between the highest dc and lowest dc to me considering prior to U43 wizard, sorc and warlock had close dc potentials due to exalted angel boosting the char builds. And I am not even counting the extra feats which should also add dc to wizard. Bard had a crazy high dc but a more narrow spell selection to capitalize on it.

So while I am not protesting the changes - I am noting you are creating a bigger gap in spell dc potential with U43. Wack a mole.

Specifically you are adding a +5 gap between wizard and sorc/warlock with U43 as you are adding 1 to PM and the net effect of the magister change (backing out 4 from EA for char builds). EA was previously an equalizer keeping sorc/warlock closer to wizard, but still slightly behind max potential. I think wizard SHOULD have the highest necro dc potential but I think it's a bit too high over the potential of a sorc and warlock now. It will be harder to balance saves as a +7 DC difference is 35%. 5 of that gap is being introduced with U43.

[Augon]

With t4 Unholy Avatar, everyone (undead included) would be taking negative damage.

Good point

So, if I am in a party of similarly built characters fighting a group of undead.
All of my party members have both death auras and the positive aura going.
We are all being healed by all three auras and they are all being harmed by all three auras.

"Okay, guys - Turtle Up!!!"

[Augon]

Nevermind - answered my own question

[Augon]

I missed the Necro Focus since he did not give its description in his thread.
I caught it shortly after posting the question

Thanks

[GeoffWatson]

[*]Shroud of the Vampire: While in this form, +2 Charisma, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. +3 Perform skill, and your melee and unarmed attacks have a chance to heal you for 1d3 Negative Energy damage per Wizard Level.

Could you please tell us what the chance is?
It's it's 1% it's terrible; if it's 100% it's good.

Far too many enhancements and items have a vague "chance" which is difficult to judge if they are worth using or not.
While you are at it, could you please add the actual chance to the other items and enhancements that use similar worfing?