First Look: U43 Pale Master

[Malusny]

Current Lich: Starts at Wizard Level 18.

• (zero from cores 2-4, outside of leveling)
• +4 CON, +4 INT, +2 WIS, +2 CHA
• +1 to Necromancy DCs
• On melee hit: 2-9 points of negative damage to living targets
• Gain +2 INT at Core 6/Level 20 (for +1 more DC)

Total ~4 Necro DC (a little more if you take the INT along the right side, which we did not here).

New Lich: Starts at Wizard Level 3. Is initially less powerful than original Lich form because, well, you're getting it 15 levels earlier.

• +2 CON, +2 INT
• +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating (different from what you got before, but still generally useful)
• +2 Necromancy DCs (Core 3)
• Inflict Weariness: On melee hit: 2-9 points of negative damage to living targets, plus energy drain on vorpal (Core 4)
• Whatever you want from the remaining list (Core 5) (This is where you started getting Lich form before)
• Gain +4 INT at Core 6/Level 20 (for +2 more DC)

Total ~5 Necro DC (again, a little more if you take INT along the right side, which we did not here).

If you go pure you're ending up at roughly the same position DC-wise as Lich form was before heading into Epics, which is exactly where we were aiming. DC casting is less concentrated into Lich form compared to the Live version; the current version means you're significantly behind as a DC caster if you don't pick Lich form. Moving away from that restrictive gating was done intentionally.

The Resistances added bulk up the caster's magical defenses, which is also a thematic element of Liches; if people have another Lich-thematic set of stats in mind (that isn't "Liches get better DCs, and are therefore better at being Pale Masters than any other Pale Master form") we're up for potentially moving things around.

Hi,
I would like to ask you and the other developers, where is the KOTC pass that you promised for paladin?
Right now wizards can still mass kill in reapers and are essential to the teams running high reaper where paladins, KOTC and vanguards are not played by anyone anymore because they can do.... Without swearing... Very little.
We are hoping you keep your promises.
Cheers.

[Steelstar]

Hi,
I would like to ask you and the other developera, where is the KOTC pass that you promised for paladin?

Still coming later this year, as planned.

[ned_ellis]

Don't have much time so first impressions only for now :

Good :
- overall defensive buff to all shrouds
- love new Cloak of Night
- love Dark Discorporation...cos they should fly off as as bats, you're right!
- like new Animate Ally
- Vampire and Wraith Shrouds
- always happy for new spells!

Neutral :
- sla's (unimaginative but functional)
- pet
- positive healing
- Zombie Shroud

Bad :
- Lich shroud
- undead mob immunity bypass
- lumped advantages in capstone Vs. Pale Trappers* (personal preference)
- Wraith sneak stats lowered

With regards the various shrouds, sure we get them earlier, but Lich works out weaker overall.
*They are getting the shaft from a caster perspective (and no, I'm not happy with better defenses over casting ability).
Will try and post more articulate thoughts when I have time. Appreciate the work, regardless.

Various ideas I'd put out in past threads not included in proposal :
- phylactery and/or ghoul touch sla for Lich
- a type of jaunt / unearthly reactions for Wraith
- a 'command undead' route rather than a 'bypass immunity' route for dealing with undead mobs
- sla's should work on undead friends / pet for healing
- the purple hit point bar for undead
- inflict and harm scrolls at vendors

[LightBear]

Bad :
- undead mob immunity bypass

Various ideas I'd put out in past threads not included in proposal :
- a 'command undead' route rather than a 'bypass immunity' route for dealing with undead mobs

I won't go as far as calling it bad, for sure it will have its purpose in the game.
From the top of my head there are a couple of raids where the bosses are undead.
So it will have a purpose there for sure.

Still, I like the idea of commanding hordes of undead and dragging them along to the boss fights. Fun times!
Would especially be fun if you or one of the mobs you command damage a living mob and they become infected so that once they die they auto rise as an undead to fight on your side.

[ned_ellis]

I won't go as far as calling it bad, for sure it will have its purpose in the game.
From the top of my head there are a couple of raids where the bosses are undead.
So it will have a purpose there for sure.

Still, I like the idea of commanding hordes of undead and dragging them along to the boss fights. Fun times!
Would especially be fun if you or one of the mobs you command damage a living mob and they become infected so that once they die they auto rise as an undead to fight on your side.

You're right - more like with the sla's : unimaginative but functional!
I'd love your infected idea! /cue evil laugh

[Reilia]

You're going to like the U43 loot >

Are we going to get a more synergistic set for the fleshy and alive EK? The Acrsteel set was so close. The repair amp on the medium armor makes it optimal for artificer's only. A mark IV with healing amp would be amazing.


P. S. Can't wait to try EK again with new magister destiny.

[Sormiron]

I have mixed feelings. I am excited becouse I miss making undead melees multiclassing but I also feel a bit of guilt abusing these kinds of things so I got to type what my first thought was.

Aasimar, 15 barb, 5 wizard. t5 eldritch knight for 20 meleepower and crit multi, just enough to get zombie shroud. frenzied berzerker up to crazy strike. then I am a bit unsure how much I got left so I guess I spend the rest in aasimar for heal amp and if I can can get it, +10 melee power.

this combined with the planned changes to fury of the wild is a lot of melee power on a toon. I´ve used barb and eldritch knight before and a worse split. with blitz i´ve gotten anything from 24-37k crits and that is without sentient gems using that cleave in eldritch knight. with so much more meleepower in total and +20% on top of it, I expect this to be well over 100k, maybe even closer to 200k than 100k in elites using adrenalin. Things are gonna DIE!

so it is just a bit of a warning. I think it is fair. Crit records will be happening without optimal gear.

another thing I can not just leave be is that alot of the shrouds seems quite melee oriented but t5 in pale master points the direction towards eldritch knight in that case anyways. Both for dc´s and crit multi.

other than that, in zombie shroud it kinda looks like someone who has gone to the toilette and there was no Tp left and the toons behind is pointing in your direction. that or it has to do number two and it´s behind is still pointing in your direction. it is mildly offensive!

ok.. it was mostly for commedic effect, but can you please please one day do something about it? pretty please?

[MasterKernel]

Still, I like the idea of commanding hordes of undead and dragging them along to the boss fights. Fun times!

Aside from the obvious 'dumb AI' problem that would lead your undead army into a nice and warm lava bath, there is another one and it is called 'wrong class'. :-D

The game still based on Dungeons & Dragons rules (and has D&D in the name). And being a Necromancer in D&D is Cleric's job. Wizards can be a specialit in Necro magic, summon one powerfull undead creature, sometimes, insta-kill with the necro spells (that have some narrow application in PnP due to the immunities, that makes Necro school #2 popular to drop after the #1 - Evocation, but, as always, CRPG has everything upside-down compared to PnP :-D ) but it won't command the undead army - that one is for Clerics.


From the other hand… our 'Pale Master' has nothing in common with the PnP Pale Master.

[Vorachtin]

I don't know, good pale masters are virtual gods right now. We are getting stupid high DC bumps in u43 ED changes, along with some positive healing and some more MRR which will help more of the casual players ( this isn't bad) but the high end players forget it, its over.

I fear it will get nerfed after a few good players post some play, however will help the general population quality of life. I think i literally could make a max DC tank wiz now

[Silverleafeon]

Here is a counter point to those claiming that 50% healing undead form is not thematic:


We are dealing with a base humanoid race that is quite living yet has magically been temporary changed to an undead form.

This is quite different from actually being an undead race, so the rules therein could thematically be different.


If we had an actual vampire or zombie race, then yes positive healing on thus would not make sense,
however this is "Pale Shroud" - an artificial magical undead covering upon a living creature.

Should said creature die, such a creature would actually becoming a living creature that actually died, instead of an undead creature that stopped moving around (was going to say dead, but they are already dead sort of)…



Anyway, having played Clerics and Favored Soul a lot, I am very much in favor of the changes involving half healing, removing health paying slas, removing raise undead death rot and just watching pale masters die more than the rest of the party when said party is getting quality healing.

You have a right to your opinion and I respect thus, but I am looking forward very much to this change.

[btolson]

Instead of positive healing at 50% vulnerability, would it be possible to convert 50% of positive healing to Temporary Hitpoints typed as Profane (so multiple casts don't stack). This way, refilling your red bar still requires action on the PM's part, but he can be saved from death by party members with a sizeable chunk of temp hp, allowing him the opportunity to do that.

I feel like this is much more thematic (converting half of positive energy to profane temp hp) whilst still remaining survivable enough in play.

[PublicEnemy]

To all saying 50% positive healing is bad because "muh lore" well....is being able to transform from a zombie to a vampire in a few seconds something that makes more sense?

Nope, absolutely not (and yet, absolutely nobody complains about that, they even want MORE toggle switch available...) and that is because we're only shrouding ourselves to become most of what undead are, but still alive somewhere inside...so it kinda even make some perfect sense, lore wise (and much more mechanically wise)

Ya'll complain and use arguments such as "lore" when you want what you PERSONALLY want but when something like "no disintegrating on death" is considered okay to you, then the lore becomes less of an importance...pathetic.

[blerkington]

Well, I’m glad you can trivialize R10, but I ran a few the other day and multiple times the entire party died and had to regroup, because even people with wings (75 reaper points) can die. That’s the point. It’s easy to say hey if you die you’re not as good as me, it must be your positioning. I especially like how you alluded to “being handled in a number of ways by better players” so generally but offer no specifics as to what you actually mean. Yeah I suppose the “better players” are already what..popping out of PM form so they can scroll heal then popping back into form?

While I’m quite happy you have a dedicated playgroup with PMs that apparently have no problem self healing or always running with a divine that has Harm memorized (or they are just so good they never take a lick of damage), that you can “steam roll” everything but realistically, not being able to be healed by anything other than the aforementioned “harm” in reaper is a liability.

I’m also disappointed, mostly because I’m not “arguing” for anything. This is what the devs have decided to try and they have the right to do as they see fit, I’m simply agreeing and saying the change 100% makes sense mechanically and from my experience as a PM in reaper. I’m simply stating my opinion and letting my voice be heard should the devs decide to listen but by no means am I arguing about my own point of view. Thanks, and you’re welcome.

If you want to keep discussing this with me you should go back and read my first post and try engaging with the points I make there.

That would be more useful than getting offended because you think I'm telling you that you don't know how to play. That's not the case and if we could get off this 'you think you're better than me' stuff we could talk about the issues instead. People bring these prodigious chips on their shoulders to these discussions and can't see the words in front of them.

You volunteered the fact that you're getting hit a lot. That generally doesn't happen to me or the really strong PMs I run with, unless they're bored and racing other players for kills. My point was there are things you can do about that. If you want to pretend I've been vague about the solutions in the current version of the game, I'll say this again: play more slowly, watch your aggro and use more CC. It's not rocket science, you just modify your approach in harder content. It works and doing better in the game without asking developers to make it easier for you might even feel good too.

Thje problem with these threads is they reek of people wanting to run the game's hardest content as quickly, carelessly and easily as some r1 levelling zergfest. This change to healing is another step in that direction. It's another very obvious counter-example to developers claiming they don't balance around reaper because they idea this might be needed in elite or below is laughable. It seems like the typical throw the baby out with the bathwater solution for what is not actually that much of a problem and it will lead to some problematic builds appearing in game.

At the end of the day, don't worry too much about what I've said here. My opinions literally carry zero weight when it comes to game changes. It's very likely you'll get what you want out of this, have some fun with it, and hopefully later on not get bored with the build or the game when you notice that much more challenge and uniqueness has disappeared. I don't bear you or other people asking for this any ill will, it's just sometimes too much candy is no good for us, much as we might want it.

Thanks.

[apep1412]

I have mixed feelings. I am excited becouse I miss making undead melees multiclassing but I also feel a bit of guilt abusing these kinds of things so I got to type what my first thought was.

Aasimar, 15 barb, 5 wizard. t5 eldritch knight for 20 meleepower and crit multi, just enough to get zombie shroud. frenzied berzerker up to crazy strike. then I am a bit unsure how much I got left so I guess I spend the rest in aasimar for heal amp and if I can can get it, +10 melee power.

Ascendant Bond is a form. You would not be able to get that 10 MP while using Shroud of the Zombie.

--------

As a side thought. Any plans on making Shadow Form from Shadowdancer more compatible with Pale Master?

[janave]

Here is a counter point to those claiming that 50% healing undead form is not thematic:


We are dealing with a base humanoid race that is quite living yet has magically been temporary changed to an undead form.

This is quite different from actually being an undead race, so the rules therein could thematically be different.


If we had an actual vampire or zombie race, then yes positive healing on thus would not make sense,
however this is "Pale Shroud" - an artificial magical undead covering upon a living creature.

Should said creature die, such a creature would actually becoming a living creature that actually died, instead of an undead creature that stopped moving around (was going to say dead, but they are already dead sort of)…



Anyway, having played Clerics and Favored Soul a lot, I am very much in favor of the changes involving half healing, removing health paying slas, removing raise undead death rot and just watching pale masters die more than the rest of the party when said party is getting quality healing.

You have a right to your opinion and I respect thus, but I am looking forward very much to this change.

So if they can get healed they can get poisoned/poison-damaged and exhausted etc too.

This logic is tripping itself one way or another.

Tbh prefering forms to keep the immunities and most undead traits and have to give up something for the pozzz heals.

[Lynnabel]

Any plans on making Shadow Form from Shadowdancer more compatible with Pale Master?

I personally like the idea quite a bit.

[mauriciodg]

Loving the changes but i have three questions.

1 - Will Negative Energy Burst be fixed so it wont be absorbed by spell absorption equipment?
2 - Will Wizards/Sorcerers someday get Evard's on their spell list? I mean, its the best arcane spell on DDO imo and the classes who should have it actually cant.
3 - Could the Unholy Avatar debuff be a fortitude debuff? Maybe a multiselector?

[deconedi]

Hello, everyone!

In addition to the Epic Destiny Pass and the New Epic Past Lives that we've already given a sneak peek of, Update 43 will also feature a revamp of the Pale Master enhancement tree.

Some of our goals for this pass included:

• Make Pale Master less about progressing through increasingly-powerful Undead Forms and more about picking a single (or multiple) forms to specialize in
• Give each Undead Form a unique playstyle
• Allow players to specialize without enforcing each form completely into a specific role
• Help parties effectively interact with Undead players
• Provide an actual way for Pale Masters to combat undead
• Help address concerns of survivability

To call out that last point (& so this doesn't get lost in the shuffle below): One of the big changes here is that Undead players will now be healed 50% by Positive Energy spells. While it doesn't 100% fit Undead lore, we believe the positive benefit to survivability and party dynamics is worth the change.

With that said, here's the tree!





CORES:

• Core 1: Dark Reaping: For each Core Ability in this tree you get +3 Negative Spell Power and +3 Negative Healing Amplification.
• Core 2: Pale Shroud: Multiselector: All forms grant 100% critical hit resistance and allow you to be healed by Negative Energy. You take 50% healing from Positive, and double damage from Light. You are considered undead.
  
  • Shroud of the Zombie: While in this form, +4 Constitution, +20% damage with attacks but you attack 20% slower than normal. You gain +3 PRR, +3 MRR.
  • Shroud of the Vampire: While in this form, +2 Charisma, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. +3 Perform skill, and your melee and unarmed attacks have a chance to heal you for 1d3 Negative Energy damage per Wizard Level.
  • Shroud of the Wraith: While in this form, +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence. Enemy attacks have a 10% chance to miss you due to incorporeality, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, and you gain Feather Falling.
  • Shroud of the Lich: While in this form, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating.
  
  
• Core 3: Multiselector: Improved Shrouding: Pick one of the following abilities that applies while in a Pale Shroud: (Passive: While in a Shroud, you can breathe underwater. +1 Spell Penetration.)
  
  • Deathly Tough: 15 Maximum Hit Points
  • Deathly Resistance: 15 Magical Resistance Rating, +2 to all Saves
  • Inflict Weariness: Your attacks inflict 2-9 points of Negative Energy damage to a living target. This scales with 100% Spell Power. Your Vorpal Melee Hits cause Energy Drain, inflicting 1 Negative Level on victims.
  • Haunting in the Dark: +2 Assassinate DCs.
  • Ghost in the Wind: +15% Incorporeal Miss Chance. (If you are in Wraith Form, this increases your total to 25%).
  • Deathly Power: +10 to Negative Energy Spellpower.
  • +2 Necromancy DC
  • +2 Enchantment DC
  • Undead Chill: +15% bonus to Cold Absorption. You no longer take extra damage from Light.
  • Undead Shock: +15% bonus to Electric Absorption. You no longer take extra damage from Light.
  • Unhallowed Touch: You gain Ghost Touch on all attacks, +5 Hide and Move Silently
  
  
• Core 4: Pick an ability you didn't pick in Core 3. (Passive: +1 Spell Penetration.)
• Core 5: Pick an ability you didn't pick in Core 3+4 (Passive: +50 Maximum Spell Points, +1 Spell Penetration.)
• Core 6: Undead Overlord:
  
  • Active: Greater Death Aura SLA. (Envelops the caster in a sickly aura of negative energy. Living enemies stepping inside the aura take 3 to 12 negative energy damage plus 1 additional point per caster level every two seconds as long as they remain within it. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half. Undead are instead healed by the aura. This aura can affect up to one target per caster level. D&D Dice: Deals 3d4 negative energy damage plus 1 per caster level every two seconds.) (This can be cast simultaneously with Lesser Death Aura and Death Aura).
  • Passive: You gain +4 Intelligence and Deathblock. +10 Negative Healing Amplification. +2 Spell Penetration.

TIER 1:

• Necrotic Touch: 6/4/2 SP, 12/8/4 seconds. Accepts Metamagics. Scales with full Spell Power. For 12 seconds after casting this, your Skeletal Knight reduces its incoming damage by 50%.
• Negative Energy Conduit (relocated)
• Spell Crit: Negative I (unchanged)
• Skeletal Knight: (Cooldown on re-summoning changed to 20 seconds. No summon cost.)
• Deathless Vigor (relocated but otherwise unchanged)

TIER 2:

• (this space intentionally left blank)
• Cloak of Night: While blocking in a Pale Shroud, you gain invisibility, displacement, and do not take extra damage from Light. Passive: +5 Hide.
• Spell Crit: Negative II (unchanged)
• Corpsecrafter: Your Skeletal Knight gain a +2/4/6 Profane Bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Rank 3: You gain +1 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.
• Efficient Metamagic (unchanged)

TIER 3:

• Necrotic bolt: 10/8/5 SP, 15/10/5 seconds. Accepts Metamagics. Scales with full Spell Power.
• Negative Energy Adept: +10/20/30 Negative Amp
• Spell Crit: Negative III (unchanged)
• Eternal Furor: You (while in a Shroud) AND your Skeleton Knight gain +5/10/15 Profane Bonus to PRR. Your Skeletal Knight gains +3/6/10 to hit and damage, +2/4/6 Profane Bonus to AC, and and its attacks bypass 10%/20%/50% of enemy Fortification.
• CON/INT (unchanged)

TIER 4:

• (this space intentionally left blank)
• Unholy Avatar: While in an Undead Shroud, your Negative Energy attacks leave a lingering debuff on undead foes that leaves them vulnerable to Negative Energy if they were immune.
• Spell Crit: Negative IV (unchanged)
• Deathly Versatile: Pick a second Shroud Toggle. You may only have one active at a time.
• CON/INT (unchanged)

TIER 5:

• Necrotic Blast: 20/15/10 SP, 18/12/6 seconds. Accepts Metamagics. Scales with full Spell Power.
• Animate Ally: 18 second cooldown. Target no longer takes damage over time. Zombie Form is removed on Rest or Death.
• Necromantic Focus (unchanged)
• Dark Discorporation: Multiselector:
  
  • Dark Discorporation SLA (as per the Warlock spell... Because Pale Masters should get to turn into bats and float away).
  • Reactive Discorporation: When your HP drops below 50%, gain Dark Discorporation for 20 seconds. This effect still ends if you attack. This effect may only trigger once every 60 seconds.
  
  
• Ascendant Shroud: You get bonuses based on your current form:
  
  • Zombie: While in Zombie Form, +20 Melee Power & 10 PRR. +20% Racial Bonus to maximum Hit Points.
  • Vampire: While in Vampire Form, +1 Enchantment DC. Your melee attacks have a chance to dominate your adversaries. On Hit: Target has a chance to be Paralyzed (Will save vs. DC 20 + INT Mod + Enchantment Spell Bonuses). On Save: -10% Movement and Attack Speed.
  • Wraith: While in Wraith Form, +10% Incorporeality (bringing your total to 20%, or 35% if you have Ghost in the Wind), +2 Sneak Attack Dice. +3% Dodge & Dodge Cap. +10 to Hide and Move Silently.
  • Lich: While in Lich Form, +15 to MRR cap, +5 Negative Spell Power, +10 Cold and Electric Resistance.

NEW SPELL:
Finally, there will be a new Level 9 Sorcerer/Wizard Spell - "Rend the Soul":
"Twists unholy energies around a single foe, causing it significant negative damage over time. Deals 4 to 10 damage every two seconds for 10 seconds for every caster level up to 20. A successful fortitude save reduces damage by half. D&D Dice: Deals 1d6+4 negative damage per caster level, max 20d6+80, every 2 seconds for 10 seconds."

Tks for great work devs. Obs.: Not FOD SLA for necro specialist? I would like see, if possible, SLA for each shroud undeadform like Charm SLA for Vamp, Fod for Lich.... Evard could be available for Wiz / Sorc ?

[Sormiron]

Ascendant Bond is a form. You would not be able to get that 10 MP while using Shroud of the Zombie.

--------

As a side thought. Any plans on making Shadow Form from Shadowdancer more compatible with Pale Master?

thanks forgot that. orc would be better for damage but the healamp would make things easier.

[PublicEnemy]

I personally like the idea quite a bit.

Agreed on this one, this is what Im currently playing and the survivability is quite good (even on high reaper).

Wanted to still use the silent avenger set to suit more the style but it is quite hard to puzzle the right way as of now...