First Look: U43 Pale Master

[EllisDee37]

Is there a rough ETA for this so I can plan out a timeline for work I'd like to do on my "Lite" tools? "Rough" as in early/mid/late [month], (eg: "early August") would be plenty. PM would be fine if you don't want to commit publicly; I promise I won't tell anyone.

As for the changes, my initial (only) thoughts:

1) The pet line looks like it will continue to be WAY overpriced for what you get. Right now on live, if we're being very charitable, a maxed out wizard pet is okay at best, yet that mediocre feature costs a staggering 15 AP. After the changes I expect the pet performance will be roughly the same, but hopefully the costs will be much cheaper. Ideally in the 4 to 6 AP range for what you get, but it appears it'll either be 9 AP or 12 AP depending on if the first tier is 1 AP or 2 AP per rank. Either way that's too expensive. My suggestion is to make all three of the pet enhancements 1 rank each, 2 AP per rank, for a total of 6 AP if you max the pet line. For balance, drop the player benefits and keep them pet-only.

2) This is a clear (but welcome!) item tax for pale masters. Pretty much every pale master will still want and need everything they currently have, but now you have to slot in an extra item effect or three for healing amp. (Equipment, Exceptional, Quality, ...?)

3) The SLA changes are win.

[mr420247]

So sorcs u 44 or 50 thats my last question

[Augon]

Shroud of the Wraith: While in this form, +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence. Enemy attacks have a 10% chance to miss you due to incorporeality, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, and you gain Feather Falling.

Dark Discorporation SLA (as per the Warlock spell... Because Pale Masters should get to turn into bats and float away).

Does the incorporeality from Wraith stack with the incorporeality from Discorporation?

[Hephaestas]

Overall the tree is great, amazing really. But I have two issues...

• Shroud of the Lich: While in this form, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating.

"

Lich is far from dethroned, it's turned into simply a defensive form.

[*]Ascendant Shroud: You get bonuses based on your current form:

• Zombie: While in Zombie Form, +20 Melee Power & 10 PRR. +20% Racial Bonus to maximum Hit Points.
• Lich: While in Lich Form, +15 to MRR cap, +5 Negative Spell Power, +10 Cold and Electric Resistance.

"

Meanwhile, in the trend of making everything viable for melees... Zombie is frankly OP. 20% hp is one thing, but ALSO +20 melee power? So a Pale Master gets to have it's cake and eat it too? Unlike most actual DPS Melee classes, who have a defense + an offense tree.

That form is way too strong. Wizards, who already get access to the most spells in the game - don't need both percentage hp anddd some MP on the side of their heavy defenses gained from this tree.

If however, that is the way this will pan out - at the very least, give +1 to Necromancy DC's to Lich in Ascendant Shroud. Liches are already losing +2 INT. If you're not going to give them the extra +2 INT back, at least give them the +1 Necro DC's. The +5 Negative Spell Power and resistances (sure, even if thematic) is an insult.

[PublicEnemy]

Good F*cking job!

You're going to like the U43 loot >

A kiss and a salute of respect to you, Steel and everyone else involved!

U43 is starting to look like a **** christmas before time.

Synergy with Eldritch Knight was definitely a sub-goal of mine. I wrote up the first draft of this pass at the same time as the Eldritch Knight pass last year.

It does look like and it's a job well done, even more with the pure casters being (absolutely) not let down as well.

[PublicEnemy]

Overall the tree is great, amazing really. But I have two issues...



Lich is far from dethroned, it's turned into simply a defensive form.



Meanwhile, in the trend of making everything viable for melees... Zombie is frankly OP. 20% hp is one thing, but ALSO +20 melee power? So a Pale Master gets to have it's cake and eat it too? Unlike most actual DPS Melee classes, who have a defense + an offense tree.

That form is way too strong. Wizards, who already get access to the most spells in the game - don't need both percentage hp anddd some MP on the side of their heavy defenses gained from this tree.

If however, that is the way this will pan out - at the very least, give +1 to Necromancy DC's to Lich in Ascendant Shroud. Liches are already losing +2 INT. If you're not going to give them the extra +2 INT back, at least give them the +1 Necro DC's. The +5 Negative Spell Power and resistances (sure, even if thematic) is an insult.

But you can choose +2 enchant and/or necro in the shroud upgrades...? isn't that even a gain of +2 INT? (and yes, those are the 2 main schools anyway)

[HastyPudding]

Hmmmm, I think I like it. This might actually drive me to try a pale master once again.

I do see one oddity, though.

For the multiselectors in the cores, I don't think deathly tough (+15 HP) really matches up with anything else, especially when you can get things like 100% less light damage, +15 MRR, and +2 necromancy DC's. I would switch this to something better, but still keeping in the 'undead toughness' theme, perhaps +15 PRR (to match the +15 MRR), or +5% racial bonus to HP (stacking with the zombie tier 5 for 25%), maybe a profane bonus to armor class, or simply increase the HP bonus. All multiselector options should be worth consideration, not 4 obvious caster options, several build-dependent options, with 1 option being in the category of 'Why would anyone pick that when you could get XXXX?' With just +15 HP, it might as well not even be there.

Edit: also, change the name of it. Deathly Tough sounds a bit off, grammatically. Maybe Corpseflesh or Undead Toughness, those sound awesome.

[pjw]

This looks like a great improvement with a bunch of interesting choices that will be hard to make, though it may not persuade me out of Inquisitive (and that's a good thing).

I especially like the multi-selector concept and would love to see more trees incorporate this. I also think removing skeletal knight line was very sensible as was putting spell pen in cores. Great moves.

I do have a couple of questions:

1. Why Deathblock at core 6? Surely undead form grants immunity to death effects, fear, enchantment, and level drain?

2. Thematically, vampires are "preternaturally fast (and strong)". Any chance of a attack/movement speed increase in vampire form? And perhaps change +2 Wisdom to +2 Strength?

3. The DC for Vampire paralyze is "20 + INT Mod + Enchantment Spell Bonuses". Does that include caster/character level? If not, it's probably too low for epic. Add caster level and its very solid.

The only other thing I'd like to see is Dark Discoporeation below Tier 5 (it's only a level 3 spell).

[Steelstar]

If however, that is the way this will pan out - at the very least, give +1 to Necromancy DC's to Lich in Ascendant Shroud. Liches are already losing +2 INT. If you're not going to give them the extra +2 INT back, at least give them the +1 Necro DC's. The +5 Negative Spell Power and resistances (sure, even if thematic) is an insult.

Current Lich: Starts at Wizard Level 18.

• (zero from cores 2-4, outside of leveling)
• +4 CON, +4 INT, +2 WIS, +2 CHA
• +1 to Necromancy DCs
• On melee hit: 2-9 points of negative damage to living targets
• Gain +2 INT at Core 6/Level 20 (for +1 more DC)

Total ~4 Necro DC (a little more if you take the INT along the right side, which we did not here).

New Lich: Starts at Wizard Level 3. Is initially less powerful than original Lich form because, well, you're getting it 15 levels earlier.

• +2 CON, +2 INT
• +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating (different from what you got before, but still generally useful)
• +2 Necromancy DCs (Core 3)
• Inflict Weariness: On melee hit: 2-9 points of negative damage to living targets, plus energy drain on vorpal (Core 4)
• Whatever you want from the remaining list (Core 5) (This is where you started getting Lich form before)
• Gain +4 INT at Core 6/Level 20 (for +2 more DC)

Total ~5 Necro DC (again, a little more if you take INT along the right side, which we did not here).

If you go pure you're ending up at roughly the same position DC-wise as Lich form was before heading into Epics, which is exactly where we were aiming. DC casting is less concentrated into Lich form compared to the Live version; the current version means you're significantly behind as a DC caster if you don't pick Lich form. Moving away from that restrictive gating was done intentionally.

The Resistances added bulk up the caster's magical defenses, which is also a thematic element of Liches; if people have another Lich-thematic set of stats in mind (that isn't "Liches get better DCs, and are therefore better at being Pale Masters than any other Pale Master form") we're up for potentially moving things around.

[FlavoredSoul]

Overall the tree looks nice, even if it's not quite as jam packed with goodies as post pass EK. I very much like how you're trying to keep the tree viable as both a necro casting class and as a niche melee choice as a secondary tree for EKs. Here are a few small suggestions.

I still think the undead knight could use a bit more juice as it's never really done much damage or survived long, while the necrotic touch 50% damage resistance buff is really nice i think it could use a couple of other small boosts, I mean an effective skeletal knight is huge investment (3AP base ability, 3AP corspecrafter, 3AP furor, druid past lives, (epic) augment summoning).

Just as necrotic touch gives a boost to the knight to help its durability, I think the other two abilities could boost it's offensive stats, with bolt and blast having comparatively weaker bonuses to account for them being ranged and thus not as much of a risk for traditional caster PMs to use. I hope the necrotic touch SLA abilities truly activate on cast and not on damaging an enemy as missing do to targeting problems and losing on your 50% buff would be frustrating.

Necrotic Touch: 6/4/2 SP, 12/8/4 seconds. Accepts Metamagics. Scales with full Spell Power. For 12 seconds after casting this, your Skeletal Knight reduces its incoming damage by 50%.

Necrotic bolt: 10/8/5 SP, 15/10/5 seconds. Accepts Metamagics. Scales with full Spell Power. For X seconds after casting this, your Skeletal Knight moves and attacks 10% faster (stacks with haste)

Necrotic Blast: 20/15/10 SP, 18/12/6 seconds. Accepts Metamagics. Scales with full Spell Power. For X seconds after casting this, your Skeletal Knight gains 15 Melee power

My idea would be to promote the play style of minion master, with the pale master throwing spells to attack enemies while also supporting the skeletal knight, at the same time the biggest bonus is still on necrotic touch which both rewards squishy caster PMs for getting close to the enemies and not hurting EK PMs who won't be taking necrotic blast as they need T5 in EK.

Also the the core 3/4/5 abilities are mostly pretty good but 3 stand out as being a lot weaker than the rest.

Deathly Tough: 15 Maximum Hit Points, 15 hitpoints is good for a T1 ability, but a little lacking for a third core, increasing it to 25 or 30 would put it in a similar place as the ravager T3 (which also grants 10 heal amp and a on hit effect), not all core abilities need to be equal between trees but this one could use a little boost.

Unhallowed Touch: You gain Ghost Touch on all attacks, +5 Hide and Move Silently Somewhat useful, except most melee PMs will get ghost touch either through EK or itemization, could use a little something extra like maybe +1 sneak attack dice? Or maybe +2 hit on sneak attacks? Just throwing ideas out there.

Haunting in the Dark: +2 Assassinate DCs. While I assume this is intended to be a niche ability, the number of builds that use assassinate are extremely low: wizards can't use assassinate natively, no assassin rogue is going to splash 6 levels of wizard for this, and there is no synergy with falconry. Only build that could use this would be some wraith shadowdancer build? maybe throw in +1 sneak attack dice here if you don't give it to unhallowed Touch?

One last thing, are undead still destroyed upon reaching zero hitpoints? Because that has got to go.

[lain5246]

Overall the tree is great, amazing really. But I have two issues...



Lich is far from dethroned, it's turned into simply a defensive form.



Meanwhile, in the trend of making everything viable for melees... Zombie is frankly OP. 20% hp is one thing, but ALSO +20 melee power? So a Pale Master gets to have it's cake and eat it too? Unlike most actual DPS Melee classes, who have a defense + an offense tree.

That form is way too strong. Wizards, who already get access to the most spells in the game - don't need both percentage hp anddd some MP on the side of their heavy defenses gained from this tree.

If however, that is the way this will pan out - at the very least, give +1 to Necromancy DC's to Lich in Ascendant Shroud. Liches are already losing +2 INT. If you're not going to give them the extra +2 INT back, at least give them the +1 Necro DC's. The +5 Negative Spell Power and resistances (sure, even if thematic) is an insult.

yea but zombie is also 20% slower to atk than other forms.

[Augon]

I know you said the template was old, but I also notice that the Stat boosts say "(1/1)" and we all know that stat boosts should be "(2/2)"
This makes me question the indicated AP costs on everything else.
Could you please let us know the expected AP cost of everything so we can get a feel for how much we can plan for on our builds?

[Lynnabel]

One last thing, are undead still destroyed upon reaching zero hitpoints?

No, they are not.

U43 is starting to look like a **** christmas before time.

There are gigantic chunks of U43 you all have not even seen yet. It's going to blow you away.

[Hephaestas]

Current Lich: Starts at Wizard Level 18.

• (zero from cores 2-4, outside of leveling)
• +4 CON, +4 INT, +2 WIS, +2 CHA
• +1 to Necromancy DCs
• On melee hit: 2-9 points of negative damage to living targets
• Gain +2 INT at Core 6/Level 20 (for +1 more DC)

Total ~4 Necro DC (a little more if you take the INT along the right side, which we did not here).

New Lich: Starts at Wizard Level 3. Is initially less powerful than original Lich form because, well, you're getting it 15 levels earlier.

• +2 CON, +2 INT
• +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating (different from what you got before, but still generally useful)
• +2 Necromancy DCs (Core 3)
• Inflict Weariness: On melee hit: 2-9 points of negative damage to living targets, plus energy drain on vorpal (Core 4)
• Whatever you want from the remaining list (Core 5) (This is where you started getting Lich form before)
• Gain +4 INT at Core 6/Level 20 (for +2 more DC)

Total ~5 Necro DC (again, a little more if you take INT along the right side, which we did not here).

If you go pure you're ending up at roughly the same position DC-wise as Lich form was before heading into Epics, which is exactly where we were aiming. DC casting is less concentrated into Lich form compared to the Live version; the current version means you're significantly behind as a DC caster if you don't pick Lich form. Moving away from that restrictive gating was done intentionally.

The Resistances added bulk up the caster's magical defenses, which is also a thematic element of Liches; if people have another Lich-thematic set of stats in mind (that isn't "Liches get better DCs, and are therefore better at being Pale Masters than any other Pale Master form") we're up for potentially moving things around.

I suppose I was looking at the "baked in" DC's, and failed to notice them getting +4 in the capstone. Glad to be wrong there. Still, I'd rather see something more interesting with the Lich-thematic 'defenses' than flat 10 energy resistance. I personally like the "chance to get temporary hp when hit" proc from current/old Lich. If there is any way to transition this into something like the Occult Slayer "Elemental Defense" that grants 25 temp HP when hit by an energy type. That to me sounds far more interesting and follows the sadistic transference of damage to power for a Lich.

[FlavoredSoul]

Overall
Meanwhile, in the trend of making everything viable for melees... Zombie is frankly OP. 20% hp is one thing, but ALSO +20 melee power? So a Pale Master gets to have it's cake and eat it too? Unlike most actual DPS Melee classes, who have a defense + an offense tree.

That form is way too strong. Wizards, who already get access to the most spells in the game - don't need both percentage hp anddd some MP on the side of their heavy defenses gained from this tree.

I had the same reaction to Zombie form at first but it's important to not look at any ability in a vacuum and look at what you're giving up for it, remember that this locks you into zombie form (poor bonuses to DC casting), and is also locked behind a Tier 5 ability (12 levels of wizard + T5 so useless for multiclass melees and locks out EK T5s so useless for pure wizard melee dps) so there is definitely a lot of stuff you're trading away for this, optimized melee dps wizards are still going to be going T5 EK, Zombie seems like a powerful tanking option but Arti with fighter or pally and 1 wiz splash will still be better tanks than a zombie wizard, overall it ends up being an option that makes you a tanky dps that's still not tanky enough to keep up with multiclass mastermaker tanks, while not being as good at dps as eldritch knight.

[FlavoredSoul]

No, they are not.

Good to hear, I haven't played PM since MOTU, but I might TR my main into a EK/PM melee as he hasn't gotten his wizard past lives yet.

[Hephaestas]

I had the same reaction to Zombie form at first but it's important to not look at any ability in a vacuum and look at what you're giving up for it, remember that this locks you into zombie form (poor bonuses to DC casting), and is also locked behind a Tier 5 ability (12 levels of wizard + T5 so useless for multiclass melees and locks out EK T5s so useless for pure wizard melee dps) so there is definitely a lot of stuff you're trading away for this, optimized melee dps wizards are still going to be going T5 EK, Zombie seems like a powerful tanking option but Arti with fighter or pally and 1 wiz splash will still be better tanks than a zombie wizard, overall it ends up being an option that makes you a tanky dps that's still not tanky enough to keep up with multiclass mastermaker tanks, while not being as good at dps as eldritch knight.

You lose 1 potential DC from being in Zombie form. At the payout of 20% HP. I can get behind some form of percentage-based hp for zombie. But 20% is just too much. Tanking isn't even part of the discussion at this point.

[silinteresting]

first off to the devs a huge thankyou for this, its looking good.

now my question is why did you not put harm sla in tier 5 i think
its a missed oppotunity. or even at core 6 like bards getting heal.

your friend sil

[PublicEnemy]

3. The DC for Vampire paralyze is "20 + INT Mod + Enchantment Spell Bonuses". Does that include caster/character level? If not, it's probably too low for epic. Add caster level and its very solid.

Doesnt have the math there but yeah could use a bit of help, much like warchanter DC's calculation, add wizard level in it so it looks like "20+full (or half) of your wizard level+ INT mod + Enchantment spell bonuses"

Also I couldn't help but notice that the wraith is mostly unchanged (it was one of the best already, true) but maybe instead of hide/assasination put some "vitality draining" style in these ghosts in the form of some fortification bypass?
Like some passive bonus to fortification bypass and hit that drain the fortifaction further...?

[Discpsycho]

Synergy with Eldritch Knight was definitely a sub-goal of mine. I wrote up the first draft of this pass at the same time as the Eldritch Knight pass last year.

I'm super excited about this! Of course my main, who's on the TR hamsterwheel as an EK, just hit 18 as a pure wizard...

Obviously not asking for concrete dates/times, but is this roughly a month or two from live? Wondering whether I should play an alt or two in the meantime so I can try it out