First Look: U43 Pale Master

[janave]

Current Description for reference:
***************************
Shroud Toggle: You shroud yourself with negative energy and assume many of the traits of {form}

You have +100% critical hit resistance, are healed by negative energy, and are unaffected by positive energy or repair effects, but take double damage from light effects.
You are considered undead rather than your original type for the purpose of most effects..



Still dont see it addressed anywhere that __IF__ the Shroud is a non transforming ( quasi lesser undead traits mixin ) effect, then why the undead traits are to full effect, ... but the negatives should be allowed to be dampened?

We haven't seen an attractive balanced approach yet.. as some others noted there is practically no build choice here, but a very anti-theme+anti-ruleset gratis effect. The reasoning given could be used for each class, for many different variables. eg: help making the party dynamics better by adding cosmic buffs on top of already strong abilities.

PM forms are extremely loaded with benefits: It takes a WF character level 16 and 7ap just to get the 100% base fortification. Level drain immunity: T4 Vistani 2pts, not sure if there is con drain immunity anywhere else. Poison damage immunity in high reaper is a binary save vs death when hit by a DS champion with a spell.

Hmm lets see, it would help tanks to observe incoming haste spells from a high level arcane caster to gain +50% AC and +200% intimidate range, and it would improve party play..

Lol, I win. Anyway, keep up the good work! Funny stuff!

If all the arguments before about "your inside a shroud and the healing before the shroud was summoned can penetrate and partially be effective, because the shroud doesn't change you" were accurate...…….WF PMs would be able to still repair.

Yup. But they dont get it, it is raw logic, there is no way to language-bend around it, hopefully at some point it occurs to others as well.


I give up at this point, it is their game after all, homebrew away, lets see how that will work out for the most authentic online dnd game or at least it was at some past date.

[SisAmethyst]

Neither of these archetypes have a cost associated with the 50% penalty. Warforged can reduce the penalty for Action Points, but PM can not. I genuinely do not understand what you are trying to say, I'm sorry

hehe, it is probably me who probably miss-understand and is on top unable to communicate correctly

1. if one has to pay for a class I can understand that a feature is better then others. Thus if WF has a distinct advantage of getting repaired and healed by 50% I can attribute this partially to the initial cost of getting them.
2. they both start out with 100%/50%/0% . Maybe I am totally wrong but reducing a healing penalty of a WF from 50% by 10% has probably a similar effect as to invest e.g AP for Dragonborn Resilience to get healing amplification? As a WF I am automatically locked out of racial HAmp. The WF can choose to stay at 50% and add RAmp instead. So the WF has to either choose to improve healing or repair efficiency. A PM with Negative Energy Adept will get some NAmp for AP and at the same time could as Dragonborn also get HAmp and as such doesn't have the same restrictions an is able to improve both kind of healing.

I however indeed missed that Renegade Mastermaker gets Constructive Conduit and Easily Fixed for extra HAmp and RAmp.

[SisAmethyst]

Haters Lynn...that is all it is.

But in all seriousness...

WF have to give up repair amp for more positive healing amp or vice versa. PM net gain is 50% positive heal amp...with no downside compared to current state might be the argument.

...

That was actually the point I wanted to make

And yes I hate everything, I am the combination of grumpy the cat and grouchy smurf

[Cadveen]

hehe, it is probably me who probably miss-understand and is on top unable to communicate correctly

1. if one has to pay for a class I can understand that a feature is better then others. Thus if WF has a distinct advantage of getting repaired and healed by 50% I can attribute this partially to the initial cost of getting them.
2. they both start out with 100%/50%/0% . Maybe I am totally wrong but reducing a healing penalty of a WF from 50% by 10% has probably a similar effect as to invest e.g AP for Dragonborn Resilience to get healing amplification? As a WF I am automatically locked out of racial HAmp. The WF can choose to stay at 50% and add RAmp instead. So the WF has to either choose to improve healing or repair efficiency. A PM with Negative Energy Adept will get some NAmp for AP and at the same time could as Dragonborn also get HAmp and as such doesn't have the same restrictions an is able to improve both kind of healing.

I however indeed missed that Renegade Mastermaker gets Constructive Conduit and Easily Fixed for extra HAmp and RAmp.

One is a class one is a race...it’s apples and oranges

[karatemack]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out!

A much-needed change.

Any clarity on the new DOT spell and whether or not it stacks like other DOTs?

[PublicEnemy]

I give up at this point, it is their game after all, homebrew away, lets see how that will work out for the most authentic online dnd game or at least it was at some past date.

So, currently, you're saying that the game lost some of its "authenticity" based upon a single fact from a single tree from a single class? Heck, that single fact is REALLY far from being 1% representative of the game but it can still impact the authenticity by THAT much! (according to you and the others)....oh lord.

hehe, it is probably me who probably miss-understand and is on top unable to communicate correctly

1. if one has to pay for a class I can understand that a feature is better then others.

New? yeah, more insteresting because it's new? maybe. But more powerful? that's pay2win good sir, nope nope nope.

[SirValentine]

I haven't tried casting Harm since domains came out. If it was changed at that point in time, my statement is wrong. The Wiki still agrees with me, but it could be as outdated as me.

Actual in-game use beats out wiki. From page history, it looks like wiki page was created with wrong range listed in 2007 and never corrected.

I wasn't trying to imply any recent change in behavior; I was just pointing out that my actual experience, running from 2009 through 2017, is from before Domains.

[PublicEnemy]

The issue (my issue) is not specific lore but more general fantasy common sense, and certainly not fear.

Every system needs a set of rules, like golf. You could pick your ball up out of bunkers to speed up the pace of play and lower your score, but that would be silly as then it is no longer golf.

A fantasy game is based on believing in a set of rules. Dragons can flap their little wings hard enough to fly, you can carry 3 mill plat without a donkey train...…..those sorts of make believe rules.

However you slice it: A humanoid, that has a shroud in place, a creation of negative energy, and can then absorb negative energy and become rejuvenated and made whole should not be able to accept positive energy with like or 50% like results. The negative energy Shroud should deflect positive energy or be further damaged itself by such energy penetrating it.

The Devs are simply filling in all the bunkers, its still golf, I guess.

This guy would like a word with you :



oh and by the way it says Immortal, Human, Hunter and people call him the daywalker, a vampire! oh the fantasy nonsense!

(and don't tell me Blade wouldn't fit in a DnD campaign/lore/fantasy world whatever...)

[Silverleafeon]

With the removal of Nx10, H, E being replaced by bravery and later reaper, good healing has become more a matter of quick reflexes.
For serious healers, healing becomes a learned muscle memory of identify, target, cast...there is no thought, there is only do.
Healers are likely the hardest roles to play superiorly.

It is actually more important to a healer that positive energy immunity be removed from the game than pale master survivability.

Pale masters rarely identify themselves within a party before being asked, and commonly group with archmagi wizards who do need healing.
This adds to the confusion therein.

Typically a healer will cast resurrection followed by positive energy upon any dead foe (after all a pale master is alive till they take form).
This is often frustrated by other helpful party members casting raise dead scrolls and pale masters taking form immediately (which they have every right to do so).

It is not uncommon for a pale master to receive cocoon (and need thus) despite that it does not heal at all.

In a raid with 12 players (or even a fast moving 6 player party), range, position, threats, and offensive tactics make the playing field complex enough already.

I have tried mass inflict in the past and not been impressed with outcome as it seems very inefficient.


Druids and Bards don't get harm or inflict spells.
I have solo healed raids with both of these classes.



Favored Soul can take Harm but there are only three spell slots for levels 6 thru 9.

Level six (pick three):
Heal (must have)
Cometfall (knock down if you have the dc)
Bladebarrier (so good)
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds (must have early, swap out)
Banishment (great for vale and other areas)
Harm (for that Pale Master who might join someday?)

Level seven (pick three)
Resurrections (must have)
Spell Resistance Mass (very handy at times)
Greater Restoration (use scrolls)
Destruction (extremely good if you have the dc)
Mass Cure Serious Wounds (if not picked, you will be forced to keep MCM)

Level eight (pick three)
Deathward Mass (must have)
Mass Cure Critical (important and likely taken for spell swap due to above choices)
Deathpact (nice)
Firestorm (better than people think)

Level nice (pick three if you have not splashed another class)
Mass heal (nice)
Implosion (must have)
Energy Drain (must have last I checked)
True Resurrections (good to have while resurrections is on cooldown)


As you can see, the odds of a Favored Soul actually picking Harm is intertwined with the odds of a pale master joining the party.
Sometimes this is whether or not this is a static party with a pale master.


So, if Harm is the only path for healing pale masters then there is only one classes who might do such.
A level 15 cleric will only have five spell slots: Heal, Comet Fall, Bladebarrier, Banish, Mass Cure Moderate might be their typical memorization.
This leaves the cleric to identify a pale master, reslot the spell at the next shrine, and find a place on a current hot bar for said spell (assuming one can remember to distinguish and find new spell to cast?)

I hardly envision a player in combat to throw a harm scroll (beside the rarity of thus).
I hardly envision a player out combat throwing a harm scroll when time via auras might do the same (except in high reaper).



I respect players lore opinions on this matter, and ultimately the Devs will make their own decision that is their own responsibility not any of ours.
We simply provide our perspective which can vary from player to player and if I meet any of you in game I will not even remember this debate.




Next time anyone wonder where all the healers are, think about the end result of this thread and the consequences therein?

[droid327]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet...

Warforged can get up to 0.8 racial modifier to Positive from their enhancements. That's still vastly superior to PM 50%. Heal amp is NOT the same as Racial Modifier. No matter how much Hamp you stack, a PM is still always going to get 50% penalty compared to a standard fleshie.

WF, for the cost of 4AP, can get 80% Positive healing. So they're 100% Repair/80% Pos/0% Neg. They still have an advantage over PMs in terms of healing versatility, and no one is saying WF break the game.

[slarden]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out!

+147

Thank you!

[Varr]

QoL is very important.

[SisAmethyst]

One is a class one is a race...it’s apples and oranges

The point I tried to make was with how seemingly less AP investment you can improve a character. Looking independent of if you put the 80 AP in a racial, class or universal tree. It seems that PM gain quite a bit and I love the improvements done to the PM. I did already admitted that I overlooked Renegade Mastermaker which can help to improve RAmp as a WF and the only reason I took WF as an example is that it is the only other play style that benefits of 2 kinds of healing. On the other hand, WF do have access to reconstruct which is superior over negative energy burst as a PM for the purpose of healing. And I am still on the fence with getting healed by 50%... even if the only argument then left is the inconsistency of how the spell is applied... maybe should sleep over it.

[jskinner937]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet...

Warforged can get up to 0.8 racial modifier to Positive from their enhancements. That's still vastly superior to PM 50%. Heal amp is NOT the same as Racial Modifier. No matter how much Hamp you stack, a PM is still always going to get 50% penalty compared to a standard fleshie.

WF, for the cost of 4AP, can get 80% Positive healing. So they're 100% Repair/80% Pos/0% Neg. They still have an advantage over PMs in terms of healing versatility, and no one is saying WF break the game.

But there still is a choice to forgo 40% repair amp for the gain of 30% more positive healing. There should be a similar option for PMs...

And also WF do have to spend a feat to gain immunity to sneak attacks like what palemasters get but lose all positive healing....

[PublicEnemy]

But there still is a choice to forgo 40% repair amp for the gain of 30% more positive healing. There should be a similar option for PMs...

And also WF do have to spend a feat to gain immunity to sneak attacks like what palemasters get but lose all positive healing....

So they both have their pros and cons like pretty much everything else in the game and all is good and great.

(NOT counting what needs to be updated, which PM will soon no longer be a part of and that thread was here to explain how and why)

[jskinner937]

So they both have their pros and cons like pretty much everything else in the game and all is good and great.

(NOT counting what needs to be updated, which PM will soon no longer be a part of and that thread was here to explain how and why)

I’m actually arguing the same point. Both sides. I favor neither side for or against but want to see it as a build choice or even personal playstyle choice.

[FuryFlash]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out!

[Strambotica]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out!

Thanks!!!!! ^^

[Krell]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out!

Thank you! I'm pretty sure I'll hear less swearing in DDO now.

[Tuxedoman96]

Harm has always been forward arc and touch range tmk. Many bouncy PM's have not been harmed* due to moving outside of touch range.

*harmed in an enjoyable manner.

Harm is touch. It can't be cast at range. Combined with the facing requirement, it was almost impossible to use. Even removing the facing requirement, it will still be very difficult to use.

I actually haven't experienced this, though the last time I used Harm was admittedly half a year ago (most people in my guild aren't undead melee). It's possible that something else is requiring the touch range casting (for example if someone is using Knight's Transformation from EK or the Epic Defensive Fighting you get at lvl 21).