First Look: U43 Pale Master

[Rivet]

Just a couple very minor suggestions from me.

* Cloak of Night ---> Rename to Cloak of Obscurity or Cloak of Gloom(anything) to avoid confusion about the item "Cloak of Night".




* Skeletal Knight: (Cooldown on re-summoning changed to 20 seconds. No summon cost.) ---> Move to Core 1.

Tier 1

* Skeletal Knight Training: Skeletal Knight receives a 5/10/15% enhancement bonus to maximum hit points. (or some other form of defensive stat to keep it from instantly dying)

[noinfo]

Options for lich

Stacking Necro cooldown

Consider no positive healing for it

[lppmor]

My 2 cents below:

- Tier 4 is lacking much more impact. Both Avatar and Versatile are utility. Such a deep tier deserve a stronger ability.
- Vampire should also gain +2 STR (they are suposed to have unnatural high strength and also be melee oriented)
- Lich should also gain Cold spellspower (this way it can be the best negative/cold caster)

[slarden]

Im happy with the change, but at now no answer about if is possible add FOD SLA in the tree. Some ppl posted here the same desire. Warlock have it in the tree but Pale Master (necro specialist) havent it. Devs answer pls.

It seems like thematically that would be part of the AM pass when that happens.

[Eshbawn]

I have been playing a wizard Pale Master for many years on DDO as my main character and before that I played a PM on nwn1 & nwn2. For me personally the idea of running as a pale master and getting healed by both positive and negative healing lacks coherence and I genuinely hope the devs at least provide a way to opt out. This could take the form, for example, of a feat requirement or an investment of action points. I personally don’t want to be healed by both positive & negative healing while running as a Pale Master since it does not make any sense to me and it will change the unique experience which I enjoy from playing a PM.

Steelstar you state that the suggested change will be “overwhelmingly positive for the overall health of Pale Master builds and the game in general, and there haven't been any compelling arguments against it so far in the feedback that outweigh that positive.”. I have not ran a EK, for example, so I can not speak from that perspective but I know the trade-offs of running in undead form and truth be told a dedicated PM caster is currently one of the most effective and powerful builds in the game at any level of content… and has been for awhile now. The undead immunities alone are very strong. Even the investment required in terms of past lives is comparatively small and amounts to doing some pl’s for the extra spell penetration. In low to mid reaper the PM’s self-heal abilities are great to good. In higher reaper surviving as a dc caster in general is more about (obviously) not getting hit by understanding basic agro mechanics and I have found that pretty much every divine caster in a high level reaper group is able to cast harm when needed.

And, how are you so confident Steelstar that this supposed easy fix to PM healing (among a number of other alternatives) will be “overwhelmingly positive” for the game in general? Folks continue to play this game for variety of reasons but I am certainly not alone in putting a high value on a certain amount of coherence when changes are proposed (in terms of number dynamics, lore, etc.). For example, there have been a few exceptions but virtually nobody that I have spoke with in game thinks the drastic proposed increase to DC’S via Magister makes any sense simply because it lacks coherence in terms of number/stat/class dynamics. So, sorry, but reality seems to be that you can’t be so confident that your idea of forcing all undead PM’s to receive 50% from positive healing will be “overwhelmingly positive” for the game in general. Regardless, it seems as things stand with the servers DDO can hardly afford to lose many more from its regular core player base and it seems silly to think that merely a change to PM healing will somehow fundamentally solve that problem.

As mentioned I have played a PM dc caster for years and I primarily play higher reaper at cap so this is just my perspective. I understand that many interesting build variations are possible with the proposed changes which might very much benefit and even require an additional healing or temp hp source. I also understand that many folks don’t think the ability to be healed by both positive and negative healing as a PM is incoherent. Nevertheless, I hope that some extra thought/work is put into this which requires some sort of sensible trade-off or in the least to allow those who want to continue to play a traditional pale master to have the option to at least opt out.

Thanks

[Xgya]

What manual are you reading? Warlock is able to use a similar spell called Chilling Tentacles which comes with the 5th level greater invocations. It functions similar to evards but evards it is not. Either way, it seems a wiz/sorc should cast it in DDO.

Now that I am reading all of these manuals again. Add the spell “Toll the Dead”

The fact it's only a Greater invocation doesn't make my comment about it being one of their best invocations any worse. (I forgot it's only a Greater invocation, and not a Dark one, though that's probably because it easily compares in utility to a lot of the available Dark invocations).

I stated that they gain Black Tentacles that also freeze opponents caught, which is what Chilling Tentacles is - it's a zone filled with Black Tentacles that also deals cold damage, making Warlocks better at using that spell once they gain access to it than wizards or sorcerers - their version deals more damage, and they can do it at will. (they do get it 4 levels later though)

I don't disagree that this is an iconic sorcerer/wizard spell - after all, Evard was a Necromancer of great renown, but I also understand why they'd give priority to Warlocks. It's also one of the strongest pulls towards the class, so giving it to others, though lore-friendly, would probably cause issues balance-wise.

[Ulfo]

It's also on the Sword Coast which means it's likely part of the Neverwinter online game license.
That means DDO will never take place in Waterdeep.

Seriously?! 8)

[Ulfo]

Options for lich
Stacking Necro cooldown

Arcane alacrity for necro spells? Really good idea for lich form!

[Cadveen]

The fact it's only a Greater invocation doesn't make my comment about it being one of their best invocations any worse. (I forgot it's only a Greater invocation, and not a Dark one, though that's probably because it easily compares in utility to a lot of the available Dark invocations).

I stated that they gain Black Tentacles that also freeze opponents caught, which is what Chilling Tentacles is - it's a zone filled with Black Tentacles that also deals cold damage, making Warlocks better at using that spell once they gain access to it than wizards or sorcerers - their version deals more damage, and they can do it at will. (they do get it 4 levels later though)

I don't disagree that this is an iconic sorcerer/wizard spell - after all, Evard was a Necromancer of great renown, but I also understand why they'd give priority to Warlocks. It's also one of the strongest pulls towards the class, so giving it to others, though lore-friendly, would probably cause issues balance-wise.

Sound logic, so I am prone to agree.

[Cadveen]

Arcane alacrity for necro spells? Really good idea for lich form!

+1

I think we can all agree the lich needs one or some of all of the following in the tree at minimum:
Stacking arcane alacrity
Spell crit chance
Spell crit damage multiplier

Finger of death SlA
Death to death and Undeath to death sla...actual would be a cool flavor to have these!
Maybe give them harm

The 50% healing I am unsure of. You can just take the shroud off. I see why they want to add it. If they don’t these new melee combos they are opening up will be tough to heal. Although a dark cleric build can use neg energy Ray. Fix harm

[Requiro]

* Skeletal Knight: (Cooldown on re-summoning changed to 20 seconds. No summon cost.) ---> Move to Core 1.

Tier 1

* Skeletal Knight Training: Skeletal Knight receives a 5/10/15% enhancement bonus to maximum hit points. (or some other form of defensive stat to keep it from instantly dying)

That is very good idea.

(...) A humanoid, that has a shroud in place, a creation of negative energy, and can then absorb negative energy and become rejuvenated and made whole should not be able to accept positive energy with like or 50% like results. The negative energy Shroud should deflect positive energy or be further damaged itself by such energy penetrating it. (...)

I disagree. It's only a Shroud, that can be easily taken away. It's not some kind of mental or racial transformation.

But to be honest, we all know that it's just QoL mostly for PUG players. Nothing change for all other PMs. This improvement have my support, like all other ideas that improvement PUG play.

<wall of text> Regardless, it seems as things stand with the servers DDO can hardly afford to lose many more from its regular core player base and it seems silly to think that merely a change to PM healing will somehow fundamentally solve that problem.

Thanks

On the other hand, this change definitely will not make anyone to leave this game. For me it's QoL for PUG players (thus it can help a little for new players)

[Shedrakzo]

With the SLAs changing from their unique status to fit the more modern manner of SLAs, will they be able to target/heal yourself and other players? For example, will the blast from Necrotic Blast heal the player? If not, would it be possible to see if this could be changed? As it would be nice to have a 'cheap cost' self heal that is available before the new capstone. If not, then perhaps a copy of the Dark Disciple's Negative Energy Burst SLA?

[Lynnabel]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out! :)

[SerPounce]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out!

Any thoughts on adding harm scrolls to vendors? We have heal and reconstruct after all.

[Shedrakzo]

Had another thought earlier. Would it be possible to swap the Ascendant Shroud selection from their current place as T5 abilities to instead replace the Core 4 Improved Shrouding options with them? This would better facilitate multi-classes (while still requiring the player to be level 12 and now requiring the investment of 12 wizard) and better supports Eldritch Knight and Archmage Palemasters. This might require reducing the power a bit, but I think it would be an overall healthier option.

This also makes room for form specific T5 spells per my earlier suggestion:

Would it be possible to move something around or make space for a new T5 that provides an SLA based on the player's Shroud choice/choices? I think this would cover a lot of feedback in the past few pages of the thread and would provide a unique reason for each shroud or picking a secondary shroud option from Deathly Versatile.

Zombie: Blood Feast (The warlock ability)
Vampire: Steal Life Force (The warlock ability)
Wraith: Chill Touch
Lich: Finger of Death

[Xgya]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out!

WOO. HOO!

All the woohoos. ALL OF 'EM!

Thanks Lyn. That was one really, really needed change.

Did you change the range so it matched Heal as well, or is it still within melee range?

[chrysahor]

Had another thought earlier. Would it be possible to swap the Ascendant Shroud selection from their current place as T5 abilities to instead replace the Core 4 Improved Shrouding options with them? This would better facilitate multi-classes (while still requiring the player to be level 12 and now requiring the investment of 12 wizard) and better supports Eldritch Knight and Archmage Palemasters. This might require reducing the power a bit, but I think it would be an overall healthier option.

This also makes room for form specific T5 spells per my earlier suggestion:

I love it!

[Silverleafeon]

Jumping in super quick to let you guys know, we've successfully removed the facing-requirements of Harm. Hope to see you guys on the upcoming preview to check the new tree out!

Wow!

Thank you!

[Lynnabel]

Did you change the range so it matched Heal as well, or is it still within melee range?

Both Heal and Harm have a max range of 30, which is our standard for spells. Is that not what you are experiencing?

Before someone asks, by the way, I did also change the facing requirements of Improved Harm from that one MoD raid item whose name escapes me

[Cadveen]

Both Heal and Harm have a max range of 30, which is our standard for spells. Is that not what you are experiencing?

Before someone asks, by the way, I did also change the facing requirements of Improved Harm from that one MoD raid item whose name escapes me

Circle of Malevolence





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