First Look: U43 Pale Master

[Varr]

Good night, you lot sound like a bunch of old farts sitting on the porch and hating the idea of Android phones.
"Land Line rotaries were good enough in my day. You keep your dirty phones off my lawn! I won't use a cell phone or let anyone else use a cell phone to dial 911 if'n I have a heart attack."

Give them a toggle to shut out helpful party assists and toss a little icon of a wooden cane over their head that signifies "DNR".

This is an accurate portrayal…….when looking at the sides of the fence. Most all of the players that are against the healing travesty are the oldest join dates with most of the pro healing side being from 2014 and newer. I agree with your assessment.


The lion share of the invested original players are against this change, us old fuddy duddies. Reguardless, the young prevail, enjoy.

My 18/2 was Lich/Monk sun elf will soon be a 18/2 Vamp/Monk Sun Elf.

[Steelstar]

Another option would be improving the Lich shroud bonuses for DC casting.

To be clear: The max Necro DC you can get in this version of the tree is one higher than the current Live tree, and we won't be pushing it any higher than that for balance reasons.

[Cadveen]

To be clear: The max Necro DC you can get in this version of the tree is one higher than the current Live tree, and we won't be pushing it any higher than that for balance reasons.

I think the consternation is that the wraith form will have the same dc as lich which is fine, but the additional bonuses for lich are minor compared to wraith. Lich In D&D is the pinnacle of undead wizards. The most powerful wizard in forgotten realms is a Lich: Larloch. It just seems the Lich doesn’t have that grandiose appeal. Fix would be to give them Finger of Death sla or read my entry for greater death aura added effects per shroud.

[Jerevth]

This is an accurate portrayal…….when looking at the sides of the fence. Most all of the players that are against the healing travesty are the oldest join dates with most of the pro healing side being from 2014 and newer. I agree with your assessment.


The lion share of the invested original players are against this change, us old fuddy duddies. Reguardless, the young prevail, enjoy.

My 18/2 was Lich/Monk sun elf will soon be a 18/2 Vamp/Monk Sun Elf.

I liked the response here.
I also understand that having figured out the most effective ways to work with what was available comes with a degree of (well earned) pride and I'm guilty of that myself being a wizened old fart myself. Hence the toggle suggestion- let the player decide.

edit: And looking at the other side of the fence I can hear myself grumbling about "Kids these days want everything handed to them on a silver platter, feh!"

[Ballrus]

"Shroud of the Zombie: While in this form, +4 Constitution, +20% damage with attacks but you attack 20% slower than normal. You gain +3 PRR, +3 MRR."

+20% dmg only with melee, or apply to ranged attack too?

[rabidfox]

Suggested Tier 5 abilities:

• Lich: "Phylactery" - "Resurrect self" version (like the Monk version). This is the most obvious one - a Lich HAS a phylactery.

It's all fun and games until they put the phylactery in our bags with a durability and hardness of 1...

[droid327]

If you dont want to be healed in a party, then roll a WF PM and take the Improved Fort feat, which makes you immune to positive healing...there's your curmudgeon toggle option

I'd be fine with making it analogous to WF, where you get a multiselector between +10/20/30 Neg Amp or +25/40/50% Positive vulnerability, if that makes everyone feel better. But I stand by what I said earlier, and with those who've also said the same...

==THERE IS NO LORE CONFLICT==

PMs are NOT actual undead. So the rules of undead dont necessarily apply. They wrap themselves in a shroud of undeath, taking some of the positive characteristics but partially avoiding some of the drawbacks. Yes, its not entirely fair, thats the point. Its magic. You do magic to give yourself unfair advantages and do impossible things. Its perfectly plausible that wizards learn to toe the line between life and death enough to cherrypick the good things while avoiding the negatives of going full-out actual undead.

From a lore standpoint, its fully defensible. From a balance standpoint, its fully defensible, because creating an entire subclass that's essentially barred from high-level party play means no one will actually play a high-level PM. Not just talking about Reaper and the self-heal penalty, but even in high-end raids like THTH you need to be able to get quick, responsive healing from your party, not "hey drop your toggle so I can throw a Heal on you before...oh too late".

[Ballrus]

"Shroud of the Zombie: While in this form, +4 Constitution, +20% damage with attacks but you attack 20% slower than normal. You gain +3 PRR, +3 MRR."

+20% dmg only with melee, or apply to ranged attack too?

Well.
"Ascendant Shroud:
Zombie: While in Zombie Form, +20 Melee Power & 10 PRR. +20% Racial Bonus to maximum Hit Points."

Only melee, right?

[droid327]

Well.
"Ascendant Shroud:
Zombie: While in Zombie Form, +20 Melee Power & 10 PRR. +20% Racial Bonus to maximum Hit Points."

Only melee, right?

Attack speed affects ranged combat too, so I think the damage boost would be for ranged and melee - even if the T5 is melee-specific. Lots of other examples of trees that partially support ranged, but have many melee-specific boosts too.

[redoubt]

I went to check

(Combat): You heal 1,707 points of damage from Death Aura.

~188 negamp (will eventually slot +20 from filigree)
~950 static negpower + wellspring
~revelers regalia
~LGS T2 30%

You can swap in the new skull orb+trinket before you cast aura. There are many more other ways to buff it to ~ 2000pts + aura crit tick with decent 50% + crit rate..

In R5 that is 409 on a crit
In R10 its 102 on a crit.

[Ballrus]

Attack speed affects ranged combat too, so I think the damage boost would be for ranged and melee - even if the T5 is melee-specific. Lots of other examples of trees that partially support ranged, but have many melee-specific boosts too.

Exactly.
That's why I asked. To be sure.

[Jerevth]

I did some quick math using basic numbers for the Zomb'shroud.

-20% damage at 20% slower...

Assuming average rolls, same gear, same stats otherwise, for ballpark computation. (i.e. all other things being equal)

Ten strikes for a non-Zomb at 100 damage average each is 1000 points.
The Zombie shroud, at eight strikes over the same period of time inflicts an average of 120 points of damage and so totals 960 points of damage.

(5 strikes for the breather is 500, the deadite scores a flopping 480.)

Really, a 20% bonus to damage only counts if the first hit kills. The bell curve gets steeper after that.

I don't see being a home for worms with a penchant for brain meat as a decent trade off for that damage as a melee dipper.
But maybe I missed an important factor in the overall scheme of things.

[janave]

In R5 that is 409 on a crit
In R10 its 102 on a crit.

While far from maximum, those are going to be really good numbers. About ~250 per 2s on r10 with 2 auras ticking. On top of all the binary immunities, top tier physical deflection rate, CC spells which honestly supposed to be the primary defense, along the ranged instant kill focus which in itself is the least defense demanding form of combat...

I think it is going to be possible to break 2500+ crit tick if someone goes minmax on healing. Outside of reaper this is heal to full every ~4s (50% crit), the best type of regeneration in the game, works while being CC-d, requires no extra action, super cost effective...

Are players really expecting to get a free pass on healing in r10 for class that should not even have built in healing?

Last time I was told reaper was not calculated into the balancing, but opinions change often in DDO land.

[Ralmeth]

I did some quick math using basic numbers for the Zomb'shroud.

-20% damage at 20% slower...

Assuming average rolls, same gear, same stats otherwise, for ballpark computation. (i.e. all other things being equal)

Ten strikes for a non-Zomb at 100 damage average each is 1000 points.
The Zombie shroud, at eight strikes over the same period of time inflicts an average of 120 points of damage and so totals 960 points of damage.

(5 strikes for the breather is 500, the deadite scores a flopping 480.)

Really, a 20% bonus to damage only counts if the first hit kills. The bell curve gets steeper after that.

I don't see being a home for worms with a penchant for brain meat as a decent trade off for that damage as a melee dipper.
But maybe I missed an important factor in the overall scheme of things.

Go for a THF cleave build, as cleaves always have the same attack speed.

[Khurse]

This is an accurate portrayal…….when looking at the sides of the fence. Most all of the players that are against the healing travesty are the oldest join dates with most of the pro healing side being from 2014 and newer. I agree with your assessment.


The lion share of the invested original players are against this change, us old fuddy duddies. Reguardless, the young prevail, enjoy.

My 18/2 was Lich/Monk sun elf will soon be a 18/2 Vamp/Monk Sun Elf.

Not trying to call you out- you don't like it as some others don't, cool, but I don't actually understand why- given everything else ..I mean a TWF Tempest armed with daggers is both more effective in fighting crowds than pretty much anyone while also having better protection against archers than a tower shield provides, the ability to cast (virtually) unlimited spells, shuriken being a far better ranged weapon than a bow.. this seems like an odd thing for people to get upset about.

Do I think the change is necessary? No, most of the people I know who play PM's are already powerful enough, and I do not even sort of understand why PM (and Sorcs) got passes before Paladins, I have no idea why they still haven't done anything with THF , and I could go on. But I'm also pretty sure it's not going to change teh game or game balance more than it's already been.

[niknight]

No, most of the people I know who play PM's are already powerful enough, and I do not even sort of understand why PM (and Sorcs) got passes before Paladins, I have no idea why they still haven't done anything with THF , and I could go on. But I'm also pretty sure it's not going to change teh game or game balance more than it's already been.

That would probably be because Paladins were one of the first classes to get a major pass in update 23. Since arcanes were considered to be in a relatively decent place at the time passes started, they got put at the end of the line. Now it's their turn.

That said, the changes look fun. I can't wait to try out an undead EK on Lama.

[Steelstar]

That would probably be because Paladins were one of the first classes to get a major pass in update 23. Since arcanes were considered to be in a relatively decent place at the time passes started, they got put at the end of the line. Now it's their turn.

This is correct; Paladins have been updated more recently than Pale Masters. We're fitting Paladins in (again, out of order,) a little bit down the line because they need it.

[Shedrakzo]

With the changes to Shroud of the Vampire's lifesteal to now be scaling, what is the actual numbers on the chance for lifesteal? Is it something low like 5% or higher like 50%?

Is there an internal cooldown that will prevent it from being effectively useful for vampire splashes (and pures that don't cast spells regularly)? Will it stack with weapon vampirism or will there be unforeseen coding issues where the effects are effectively the same and thus don't stack/activate each other's cooldowns?

If the thought of creating the scaling per wizard level is the reason for the random chance proc, would it be possible to reduce the scaling to 1d2 per level and instead make it a reliable on hit proc instead of random chance? The reason to bring this up is Blood Strength from Ravager. While you are getting this effect a whole 9 levels earlier, Ravager is a 12% chance to heal half your barbarian levels per hit with no internal cooldown that scales with melee power, on top of a bigger burst of healing per kill (which has a cooldown). The 12% of ravager almost feels like a guaranteed hit if you are TWF. However, if the vampire effect scales with negative spellpower, 1d2 or even 1d1 is fine as long as it's guaranteed per hit instead of a random chance proc.

[GramercyRiff]

I think the consternation is that the wraith form will have the same dc as lich which is fine, but the additional bonuses for lich are minor compared to wraith. Lich In D&D is the pinnacle of undead wizards. The most powerful wizard in forgotten realms is a Lich: Larloch. It just seems the Lich doesn’t have that grandiose appeal. Fix would be to give them Finger of Death sla or read my entry for greater death aura added effects per shroud.

Liches are powerful wizards because they don't age and are extremely hard to kill. They become powerful through their research not because they are liches, though being a lich fosters the research for sure. Being a lich doesn't make you a more powerful caster (though it does make you harder to kill which I guess indirectly makes you more powerful), it's just the lich form is one of the best for a wizard. The lich's form is resilient and resistant and immune to all kinds of things. This isn't even going into the phylactery.

At any rate we agree that a lich should be more powerful than a wraith. So give the lich more something. I also think giving more DC is a bad idea, but there are good ideas in this thread. The self resurrection is a good one. More caster levels and max caster levels also fits. Some kind of paralyzing attack that can actually work well in the highest difficulties. Etc.

[Saekee]

I did some quick math using basic numbers for the Zomb'shroud.

-20% damage at 20% slower...

Assuming average rolls, same gear, same stats otherwise, for ballpark computation. (i.e. all other things being equal)

Ten strikes for a non-Zomb at 100 damage average each is 1000 points.
The Zombie shroud, at eight strikes over the same period of time inflicts an average of 120 points of damage and so totals 960 points of damage.

(5 strikes for the breather is 500, the deadite scores a flopping 480.)

Really, a 20% bonus to damage only counts if the first hit kills. The bell curve gets steeper after that.

I don't see being a home for worms with a penchant for brain meat as a decent trade off for that damage as a melee dipper.
But maybe I missed an important factor in the overall scheme of things.

what if you just spam cleaves?