First Look: U43 Pale Master

[btolson]

We'd like to do a pass on Archmage down the line. It probably won't happen this year. Archmage is 2-3x the size of every other tree, and will take at least 2-3x as long to do anything meaningful with on our end, so it's a matter of finding the right time. TBH, Archmage is expensive but relatively effective for a number of possible builds; on the other hand, there are some spell school choices and combos that are rarely, if ever, used. We'll probably collect some feedback and data about that as we get closer to actually making a change there.

Is some minor triage in scope for Archmage for U43? Like adjusting the cost of T1 Energy of the Scholar (30/60/90 spellpoints) to be 1 AP per rank, to match every other class tree that has a similar enhancement?

[Requiro]

We'd like to do a pass on Archmage down the line. It probably won't happen this year. Archmage is 2-3x the size of every other tree, and will take at least 2-3x as long to do anything meaningful with on our end, so it's a matter of finding the right time. TBH, Archmage is expensive but relatively effective for a number of possible builds; on the other hand, there are some spell school choices and combos that are rarely, if ever, used. We'll probably collect some feedback and data about that as we get closer to actually making a change there.

Well, you can always give up a special school route and give us more freedom to create a good Archmage by creating a system in which we can choose which spells will be as SLs. I think that will be less time consuming by Dev team.

Is some minor triage in scope for Archmage for U43? Like adjusting the cost of T1 Energy of the Scholar (30/60/90 spellpoints) to be 1 AP per rank, to match every other class tree that has a similar enhancement?

And +4 Intelligence on Capstone

[janave]

This is the whole matter in a nutshell.

One of the biggest issues facing Pale Masters right now is that they fit badly into overall party composition; some can self-heal reliably, but if you're building toward that it's at the cost of being effective in other ways and that has a real, material cost that stops these builds from reaching their full potential. While it's understandable that not everyone likes the lore around it, the net effect of allowing half-positive-healing for these builds is overwhelmingly positive for the overall health of Pale Master builds and the game in general, and there haven't been any compelling arguments against it so far in the feedback that outweigh that positive. This isn't to say that arguments against it don't have merit; they do, and we're listening.

Nothing we can do to their potential to Negative Healing will have the same impact; as good as some of the ideas in this thread are, they would band-aid the larger problem rather than fundamentally improve party dynamics and overall survivability in a party setting (and even soloing, really).

Well I think this is very hard to decrypt, but I give it a go, is the more specific issue about "how to keep a melee EK+PMform alive in a group setting", for example with mass cures?

I dont remember the last time I needed "help" on my wraith form casting PM running content I was prepared for (1st life so ~r4 tops) in a party that was ready for that difficulty. On the other hand, I've seen 1500 hits from neg-burst, and 1100 pts aura ticks ( which will be more than doubled with this pass using the new capstone ).

To me, it seems like a perfect opportunity to reuse the spells to touch range toggle, to enable the 50% positive heals. This would be suboptimal for casting enlarged FoD from a safe spot, but affordable enough for an EK to do his thing.

Outside of reaper in a typical LE (r0) dungeon the 2 aura is very close to god mode with moderate investment.

AmIWrong?

[HungarianRhapsody]

Well I think this is very hard to decrypt, but I give it a go, is the more specific issue about "how to keep a melee EK+PMform alive in a group setting", for example with mass cures?

I dont remember the last time I needed "help" on my wraith form casting PM running content I was prepared for (1st life so ~r4 tops) in a party that was ready for that difficulty. On the other hand, I've seen 1500 hits from neg-burst, and 1100 pts aura ticks ( which will be more than doubled with this pass using the new capstone ).

To me, it seems like a perfect opportunity to reuse the spells to touch range toggle, to enable the 50% positive heals. This would be suboptimal for casting enlarged FoD from a safe spot, but affordable enough for an EK to do his thing.

Outside of reaper in a typical LE (r0) dungeon the 2 aura is very close to god mode with moderate investment.

AmIWrong?

How are you getting your Negative Healing Amp and Negative Spell Power up so high?

[Ulfo]

New Lich: Starts at Wizard Level 3. Is initially less powerful than original Lich form because, well, you're getting it 15 levels earlier.

• +2 CON, +2 INT
• +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating (different from what you got before, but still generally useful)
• +2 Necromancy DCs (Core 3)
• Inflict Weariness: On melee hit: 2-9 points of negative damage to living targets, plus energy drain on vorpal (Core 4)
• Whatever you want from the remaining list (Core 5) (This is where you started getting Lich form before)
• Gain +4 INT at Core 6/Level 20 (for +2 more DC)

Total ~5 Necro DC (again, a little more if you take INT along the right side, which we did not here).

Ooook. Now let's see at Wraith same way:

• Shroud of the Wraith: While in this form, +2 Dex, +2 Int. Enemy attacks have a 10% chance to miss you due to incorporeality, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, and you gain Feather Falling.
• Ghost in the Wind: +15% Incorporeal Miss Chance. (If you are in Wraith Form, this increases your total to 25%) Core 3/4/5.
• +2 Necromancy DC Core 3/4/5.
• +2 Enchantment DC Core 3/4/5.
• Core 6: Undead Overlord:
  Passive: You gain +4 Int and Deathblock. +10 Negative Healing Amplification. +2 Spell Penetration.
  
• Ascendant Shroud: You get bonuses based on your current form:
  Wraith: While in Wraith Form, +10% Incorporeality (bringing your total to 20%, or 35% if you have Ghost in the Wind), +2 Sneak Attack Dice. +3% Dodge & Dodge Cap. +10 to Hide and Move Silently.

Here we have exactly same bonuses for DC and much much more bonuses to survival. With this statement i not see any possibility to take Lich form over Wraith in any racial condition mind. 8)

[HuneyMunster]

We'd like to do a pass on Archmage down the line. It probably won't happen this year. Archmage is 2-3x the size of every other tree, and will take at least 2-3x as long to do anything meaningful with on our end, so it's a matter of finding the right time. TBH, Archmage is expensive but relatively effective for a number of possible builds; on the other hand, there are some spell school choices and combos that are rarely, if ever, used. We'll probably collect some feedback and data about that as we get closer to actually making a change there.

Does this also mean that Savant tree/s update will not be till next year? And will there ever be a third Prestige for Sorcerers outside of the defensive melee touch spellcasting and dps options?

[Steelstar]

Is some minor triage in scope for Archmage for U43?

Sorry, U43 is already ridiculously jam-packed. That's a good thing (there's a lot coming in the update), but we don't have room for anything else right now.

[deconedi]

Please, if possible, answer the doubt that I have read in several posts here in this thread:

1 - why there isnt Fod Sla to palemaster? warlock has but the necromancy specialist does not;

2 - evard tentacles could be another new magic for wiz / sorc?

[Requiro]

Here we have exactly same bonuses for DC and much much more bonuses to survival. With this statement i not see any possibility to take Lich form over Wraith in any racial condition mind. 8)

Yes. New Shroud forms are totally unbalanced. I hope that it is only first look and will be more balanced after next patch.

[Horst-of-the-Wood]

I wish we would get more unique options in here. Please dont make every class/build feel/play the same. Add something unique, fun like a Palemaster, that actually has some power over (un)DEATH.

• a Palemaster reviving killed mobs as undead creatures that fight for the player for a short time after killing. Maybe add a special new ability/attack/SLA to PM enhancement tree: A living mob touched by that special attack and getting killed then will revive as undead version and fight for the player, maybe getting a stacking debuff over time doing more and more damage (like the old Animate Ally did with players) so it wont last forever. Or just a fixed time then it moulders. Make it 3 Ranks for that ability, 30/15/8s cd, max number of controlled undead 1/2/3. Something like that, please be creative here.
• enhance the possiblities to control undead enemies (maybe your death aura has a xx% chance to control undead when they are hit by it, or make it a Dominate Undead spell where they follow you around, that also works on epic lvls).
• the skeleton pet: as it is now its only a leverpuller if you are to lazy to take a hire for that. Just replace the line with some of the things i mentioned above or something else. Or do a pass to pets (Skeleton, Wolf + Arti dog) as those are more or less useless today.

This would give more options to handle undead other than just let them be damaged by negative energy. Would be much better and something unique, fun.

[justsomeguy999]

Sorry, U43 is already ridiculously jam-packed. That's a good thing (there's a lot coming in the update), but we don't have room for anything else right now.

On the topic of archmage, even though it definitely can't fit into U43, is there any chance of minor work on archmage in advance of a hypothetical full pass? From what you said, a proper look will take a lot of work due to how many things there are across the different school options, but archmage is still kinda functional overall. While I know the dev preference has been for doing each enhancement pass all at once and doing it properly, if tweaks weren't out of the question then archmage would be close to fine (balance-wise, maybe not in terms of design) with very small changes in my opinion.

The capstone is the obvious weak point, being substantially worse than basically every other comparable caster capstone. A numbers tweak on the capstone (maybe 4 INT up from 2 and a decent bump to the spellpower/add some crit damage so it fits the force nuker theme?), and maybe arcane supremacy being more consistent would possibly be some very simple changes that would mean there's a reason to take t5/capstone in archmage now that PM is getting updated, without taking as long as a full pass.

[Jerevth]

Good night, you lot sound like a bunch of old farts sitting on the porch and hating the idea of Android phones.
"Land Line rotaries were good enough in my day. You keep your dirty phones off my lawn! I won't use a cell phone or let anyone else use a cell phone to dial 911 if'n I have a heart attack."

Give them a toggle to shut out helpful party assists and toss a little icon of a wooden cane over their head that signifies "DNR".

[HastyPudding]

I wish we would get more unique options in here. Please dont make every class/build feel/play the same. Add something unique, fun like a Palemaster, that actually has some power over (un)DEATH.

• a Palemaster reviving killed mobs as undead creatures that fight for the player for a short time after killing. Maybe add a special new ability/attack/SLA to PM enhancement tree: A living mob touched by that special attack and getting killed then will revive as undead version and fight for the player, maybe getting a stacking debuff over time doing more and more damage (like the old Animate Ally did with players) so it wont last forever. Or just a fixed time then it moulders. Make it 3 Ranks for that ability, 30/15/8s cd, max number of controlled undead 1/2/3. Something like that, please be creative here.
• enhance the possiblities to control undead enemies (maybe your death aura has a xx% chance to control undead when they are hit by it, or make it a Dominate Undead spell where they follow you around, that also works on epic lvls).
• the skeleton pet: as it is now its only a leverpuller if you are to lazy to take a hire for that. Just replace the line with some of the things i mentioned above or something else. Or do a pass to pets (Skeleton, Wolf + Arti dog) as those are more or less useless today.

This would give more options to handle undead other than just let them be damaged by negative energy. Would be much better and something unique, fun.

I would love to have a sort of "minion master" build for pale master, although I think the performance of the game would drop significantly with so many summons (and summons are largely useless in this game, anyway; you'd need an entire update to fix that). I think Dominate Undead would be a perfect addition to DDO.

I do like the idea of an Animate Dead ability, where you apply a debuff to an enemy, and if that enemy dies with said debuff on them, they are raised as a dominated monster that follows you around for a certain amount of time (and doesn't get any save against it) and has the undead trait, allowing you to heal them. Or perhaps some proc on a melee hit that makes dead enemies rise up again as wraiths for a few seconds.

For uniqueness, how about a 'targets of your negative energy spells have a chance to become afflicted with curse' kind of ability?

[MasterKernel]

Good night, you lot sound like a bunch of old farts sitting on the porch and hating the idea of Android phones.
"Land Line rotaries were good enough in my day. You keep your dirty phones off my lawn! I won't use a cell phone or let anyone else use a cell phone to dial 911 if'n I have a heart attack."

Give them a toggle to shut out helpful party assists and toss a little icon of a wooden cane over their head that signifies "DNR".

The game has "D&D" in it's name for a reason. People came to play for more or less D&D feel in the CRPG game. Take it out and what would left ? Not to mention, people would (and they do) leave. The next thing you'll discover is the new 'Merge the serves' thread every week…

[MasterKernel]

This is the whole matter in a nutshell.

One of the biggest issues facing Pale Masters right now is that they fit badly into overall party composition; some can self-heal reliably, but if you're building toward that it's at the cost of being effective in other ways and that has a real, material cost that stops these builds from reaching their full potential. While it's understandable that not everyone likes the lore around it, the net effect of allowing half-positive-healing for these builds is overwhelmingly positive for the overall health of Pale Master builds and the game in general, and there haven't been any compelling arguments against it so far in the feedback that outweigh that positive. This isn't to say that arguments against it don't have merit; they do, and we're listening

It would be SO fun to see if all the healers will refuse to heal Wizards whatsoever in order to protest agains the 50% positive healing change…

[HungarianRhapsody]

It would be SO fun to see if all the healers refused to heal Wizards whatsoever in order to protest agains the 50% positive healing change…

Why would I refuse to heal Wizards and make my life harder in a reaper quest?

Also, "healer" means *every* party member in DDO because there's no reason to not have healing after around level 10 or so.

[HungarianRhapsody]

The game has "D&D" in it's name for a reason. People came to play for more or less D&D feel in the CRPG game. Take it out and what would left ? Not to mention, people would (and they do) leave. The next thing you'll discover is the new 'Merge the serves' thread every week…

So we should probably switch away from spell points and go back to "spells per day" like in the player's handbook, then. And get rid of this 1000+ HP nonsense. Your 20th level character will have a much more reasonable 150 HP (if they're lucky).

[Delosari]

As to "what [we] want this tree to do": As a primary focus, allow you to be a negative nuker or Necro DC caster. However, we also want it to provide Undead options to other archetypes as a secondary focus.

.

I can see (and I like them) the negative nuker and undead options for non pure builds. However, I think the necro DC focus has been reduced in this tree in comparison to the old version. Currently, we have:

Zombie: Soak damage and melee utility
Wraist: Avoid damage and rogue utility
Vampire: CC and melee/range utility
Lich: Negative power and some resistances.

I personally like the focus on the Necro DC caster (specially if it wont be available in the archmage pass tree) but currently there is the same DC bonus for necromancy and enchantment.

I would suggest instead of the energy conduit or the negative energy adept enhancements some kind of cursekeeper spell effect to reduce the DC saves from necro spells. Another option would be improving the Lich shroud bonuses for DC casting.

[Gabrael]

50% positive heal seem like a lot especially considering how powerful some heals can be.

alternatives:

> 10% positive heal per core (maybe it would prevent people from dipping 3 level in wiz just to get all these undead buffs, and gain immunity to mobs casting harm spells)
> 10/30/50% selector in a mid-high tier.
> flat 25% positive heal

thoughts?

[janave]

How are you getting your Negative Healing Amp and Negative Spell Power up so high?

I went to check

(Combat): You heal 1,707 points of damage from Death Aura.

~188 negamp (will eventually slot +20 from filigree)
~950 static negpower + wellspring
~revelers regalia
~LGS T2 30%

You can swap in the new skull orb+trinket before you cast aura. There are many more other ways to buff it to ~ 2000pts + aura crit tick with decent 50% + crit rate..