First Look: U43 Pale Master

[Memnir]

Interesting reading last 4 pages. Appreciate reading some echo's of my disappointment about the 50% healing decision. Pos Rep endourcement on the way.

Not much I can add that doesn't sound inflammatory. Positive healing should not work on players that have chosen to forgo life for death. There have been listed a myriad of ways to improve self healing and even group type healing touch up that make sense. This simply does not. Just like undead taking out of breath damage underwater would be silly, this is even more so.


The lore is what has this 14 year old game on its feet still. Been playing since day one, and will continue...….but decisions like this, common sense throw away moves, are just bad for the game.

Agreed.
Was going to voice near identical sentiments reading this, catching up on what has been happening while I was on vacation, but Varr put it better than I would have.

I like many of the proposed (actual?) changes - but the Positive Healing change is a bad one.

[Duhboy]

I like a lot of this.

A zombie being physically more powerful than a vampire doesn't work for me though. The vampire is vastly superior in every way to a zombie. Frankly zombie being a form at all is bad, but that ship has sailed. Should've used wight.

The zombie slow attacks seems like it can't really be used but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the damage buff is a gain, but it doesn't seem like it.

I don't understand this myself. Zombies are more durable than a vampire but not more physically stronger. I would say make zombie form more of a defensive shroud and have vampire form more of a offensive one imo.

[Mindos]

So paralyze on hit should scale nicely in the future with increases in gear and such, yes?
And at this point in time it just about roughly equals out with the 100 DC raid weapon with paralyzing on it.

So as time goes on, the palemaster will still be able to paralyze, while the raid aquired gear will fall behind. Based on the difficulty of aquireing the paralyzing ability, it seems odd.

How to get paralyzing shortsword from Killing Time raid: Get 12 people, run it 20 times, cash in runes. Or get lucky with a drop or trade.
How to get paralyzing with Pale Master: LOL Bro, just roll a PM and use BTA gear!

I know there's another thread on the forums about raid gear obsoleetingation, and I don't mean to contaminate this thread with that. But I was wondering why the disconnect between applying effects in the future.

[slarden]

Both wraith form and shadow form in shadowdancer had knockdown immunity at some point (floating) and lost it. Can you please restore this with U43.\

The wiki still incorrectly states both are immune to knockdown.

[Delosari]

I consider myself a noob DDO player but as someone who exclusively plays a Pale trapper I am very happy with these changes.

I have seen many suggestions for the SLA and the tier 5 and I agree there are more interesting options:

Necrotic blast: Currently there are not many negative spells which can damage many enemies without getting near. This will be the main responsibility of necrotic blast. Thanks to the new unholy avatar talent this means we can start damaging many of the negative energy immune monsters (thanks a lot for this). However, we still need to cast it twice for damaging hordes of enemies. Could it be possible this spell also leaves a lingering effect which increases the damage from all sources? This way we can apply other energy type spells (in which we are weaker) and reach a balance. Also it would increase a wizard support role in raids where a wizard does not contribute much with its own damage (the new spell will help with that though)

Animate ally: It seems weak and superfluous, any wizard who reaches this level has enough skill points spent in UMD for resurrection scrolls. Moreover, the slower motion from the zombie shroud makes it a liability in most situations (it can be fun though). I would suggest some kind of Jibbers effect which can be applied both on the player and to party members if he is dead (or undead dead). Just make it available once per rest if you think it is too powerful.

Necromancy focus: Not sure if +1 DC for necromancy is too little, but it seems to me that with this new tree you can get a higher DC for enchantment than for necromancy (taking into account the vampire shroud). Maybe +2 DC or a SLA for FoD or word of power death?

Not sure why a PM should turn into bats... Moreover, I am not certain it improves the defences a wizard already has available (btw I love the new cloak of night). How about an Evard's Black Tentacles SLA but with skeleton hands instead? Anykind of stun spell for undead would fit better.

Ascendant Shroud: The movement speed debuff from the zombie shroud seems too strong for me... What about going for a wight shroud: Improvement in hit points and normal speed. The lich shroud also looks out of place (not sure where the cold/electricity resistances are inspired from). I thought the paralysing touch was actually a lich trick in D&D (I love it btw, great support ability since it applies to range weapons). I think some kind of bonus to SP fits better, or even better the phylactery idea.

Thank you very much for your work! Looking forward to play with it!

P.S. Regarding the 50% healing debate it seems to me not really that important. A squishy wizard will still be one shot in most occasions unless it knows its place. This is actually a boon for healers and for the game designers and their love for raids with ever increasing DoT .

[akalin2012]

Cloak of night seems too powerful or too low in the tree or both. Maybe some odd always tumble playstyle can abuse it?

Animate ally, will players still have the slower movement? Or will it be really cool, and players get all the zombie form changes listed? Hmmm, maybe players will WANT to die, to get animated to get the buffs

I sorta don't understand what you want this tree to do. Melee? Great with the paralysing on hit. Caster? Great with the charms. Undead buddy healer? Even better. I'm just not seeing what this is supposed to really shine at doing. Tanking? DPS? Right now it seems just like it was before. Niche. But buffed niche.

Yes. The answer to that is yes. To be able to do a customizable selection of pretty much all of these. Want to tank? You can. Give it a pair with EK, take wraith form and definitely take the blocking thing. Want to dps? Well, now you can affect undead, and your SLAs finally, *FINALLY* can use metamagics! Want to do the ol' enchantment DC stackening PM/AM like I personally like to do? Don't even have to be in vamp form for it, but can do it to some extent with all of them if you take that in the cores. It doesn't even seem like there's specifically a perfect form for anything. Tanking could probably be done with either vamp or wraith, wraith giving incorpreality or vamp giving... well, vampirism! Zombie of course being an alluring choice for 20% more hp. I loooove what I'm seeing here. And of course, psuedo-rezz your friends and share the death (in a good way) no matter what else you do with it! It looks great! Good at just about anything in that list, and buildable to be great at one or two.

[akalin2012]

Animate ally: It seems weak and superfluous, any wizard who reaches this level has enough skill points spent in UMD for resurrection scrolls. Moreover, the slower motion from the zombie shroud makes it a liability in most situations (it can be fun though). I would suggest some kind of Jibbers effect which can be applied both on the player and to party members if he is dead (or undead dead). Just make it available once per rest if you think it is too powerful.

See, thing is, that's what Animate Ally used to be. It would make you go into zombie form but slowly decay back to death. Also, this isn't a movement speed 20% slower, just attack speed. Most characters who benefit from attack speed probably already have a method of getting enough alacrity to offset it, and if it's really insufferable, just go rest if available, or... kys and demand a rez from your heals instead. You *can* always say no to a rez ability if you want to opt out of being animated.

[Kutalp]

Zombie form:

Same/Similar specialities except:


As a zombie, you are doomed.

You are doomed and simply can not die. (Unless you choose to quit game and get out of undead shroud of zombie)

You have sickness aura, cast fear and comsume the living opponents' flesh. (Effects on opponent)

Consume: The flesh of your live opponents heal you equal to %10-%15-%20 of damage dealt to your live opponents.

If Fortitude save fails: - 1d20 constitution damage.

If Will save fails : -1d20 wisdom/or Charisma damage .

Sickly aura: -% 35 movement and attack speed; as long as they stay at melee range. The effects starts a count down after opponents (your live victims) leave the melee range for 20 seconds.

You get Die hard feat with -1000 hp range of unconsciousness , as undead and do not turn to dust. You get burried and turn back to game whenever you fall under -1000 hp range of unconsciousness, every three minutes.

Each burial drop your movement speed -%10; up to -% 70 movement speed. You get +2 constitution, +2 strength and +4 to balance after each burial. Up to +10 to both stats and +20 to Balance skill (Nothing except logging off and quitting the quest/raid/wilderness area... removes this effect) .

If your team mates lay down (die) beside you they have a % 10 chance to turn in to a zombie with the same specs/bonuses/restrictions as you. (Explained above). Spawn screen or Cleric powers may cleanse their doom and kills them to be resurrected once more ; but not your own doom.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHq-TEluOrM

Thank you very much for your hard work on Wizard pass.

[PublicEnemy]

Agreed.
Was going to voice near identical sentiments reading this, catching up on what has been happening while I was on vacation, but Varr put it better than I would have.

I like many of the proposed (actual?) changes - but the Positive Healing change is a bad one.

You'll still probably have to deal with it, Devs have thought about this issue through and through, they found this compromise to be the best (and I agree) so it is now here to stay, and put to the test.

All I'm saying is, you are of course welcome to give your opinion (that's the point of this post after all) but don't think any instant that this will change anything in the final result by that large (i.e removing of the 50% pos.), especially when the other ,at the very least, other half is disagreeing with you.

Both wraith form and shadow form in shadowdancer had knockdown immunity at some point (floating) and lost it. Can you please restore this with U43.\

The wiki still incorrectly states both are immune to knockdown.

+1 Agreed

[slarden]

Overall these changes look good, but if you look at the damage the negative slas do and the spell points needed to take down a boss at 30 it seems the cost of all the slas can be reduced. I would suggest lowering the spell point clost and including an hp cost on top of the spell point cost (so 5 sp and 5hp cost instead of 10 sp). Instead of making undead vulnerable to negative energy I would suggest making non-living targets vulnerable to negative energy so constructs would also be impacted.

Overall it seems survivability and self healing is improved even though the positive healing seems absolutely unthematic. I like that PMs can be healed in 10 skull since self-healing is nerfed so heavily there.

It seems a PM in magister will be the absolute highest necro DC which is going to make balancing enemy saves more challenging.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I get that a lot of people don’t like the 50% positive healing from a “I don’t think pretend magic should work the same way that you think this pretend magic should work” but it’s an enormous quality of life improvement. There’s a lot of the game that has a significant self healing penalty. Add in the healing-from-others penalty and it makes Pale Maters in shroud form close to unplayable in a lot of content for most players. Taking a tree from close to unplayable to challenging-in-some-content but actually usable is a great thing.

Mid you need to come up with a more justification for it, I’m sure we can make one for you that works. The God of retcon. Lesser Pale Masters with her love. Whatever. Sometimes game balance needs to be placed above flavor text.

[Elvejon]

I do love the changes but some thing to point out:

I do hate the Positive healing change, at the same time this change is virtually no different for Warforged mechanics; saying that, I always wanted Warforged and Palemaster to "CHOOSE" the playstyle at which they healed; Like 50% healing from positive/Repair and THEN shift it towards what you want. For example if Warforged wanted to just be a machine; 100% repairs and 0% positive energy makes sense to me. Palemaster should be able to choose too; Rather they want to be 100% negative or not. And the proposed changed it basically like how artificers are, artificers I believe can choose to become more machine like as well, just like wizards choosing to be more undead-like.

I am confused on the multi-selector of "Improve" shroud; at core 5, do I have three simultaneous benefits me or do I have the option of 1 out of 3? I think I understand the Versatile shrouding gives me another undead form. if I can have all 3 then I love this change.

I am a very strong supporter and making our pets/summons stronger so here are my thoughts:
Corpse-maker is just ok, the very slight +1 buff is weird but sure.
Eternal Furor is amazing; virtually the same but player buffs to invest in is just amazing
and i assume skeleton knight is relatively unchanged from that.

Like loads of people asked; gives skeleton knights a character sheet (Id like to see stats and everything, add this for the dogs too if not already i don't play arti/druid much) + 2 slots of gear like the druid/arti pets have; its honestly not asking much; or give us back the Skele archer/mage options, and in addition give us the option if we want normal/black bone/Frostmarrow please.

"While in Vampire Form, +1 Enchantment DC. Your melee attacks have a chance to dominate your adversaries." - I find this cool because a LONG time ago I made a post about charms, and someone jokingly said there should be an club in the game where you smack someone and have a chance to charm them; that being said is this "Dominate" they same as "Dominate Person/Monster or Charm" or Is it the same as enemy Dominate, where its just another type of paralysis.

I love the changes otherwise, I will miss choosing between all undead forms, but I think forcing people to focus on what play style they want early on is not only good but unique. Although now I cant switch to wraith form every time i want FF.

[Sebastrd]

Current Lich: Starts at Wizard Level 18.

• (zero from cores 2-4, outside of leveling)
• +4 CON, +4 INT, +2 WIS, +2 CHA
• +1 to Necromancy DCs
• On melee hit: 2-9 points of negative damage to living targets
• Gain +2 INT at Core 6/Level 20 (for +1 more DC)

Total ~4 Necro DC (a little more if you take the INT along the right side, which we did not here).

New Lich: Starts at Wizard Level 3. Is initially less powerful than original Lich form because, well, you're getting it 15 levels earlier.

• +2 CON, +2 INT
• +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating (different from what you got before, but still generally useful)
• +2 Necromancy DCs (Core 3)
• Inflict Weariness: On melee hit: 2-9 points of negative damage to living targets, plus energy drain on vorpal (Core 4)
• Whatever you want from the remaining list (Core 5) (This is where you started getting Lich form before)
• Gain +4 INT at Core 6/Level 20 (for +2 more DC)

Total ~5 Necro DC (again, a little more if you take INT along the right side, which we did not here).

If you go pure you're ending up at roughly the same position DC-wise as Lich form was before heading into Epics, which is exactly where we were aiming. DC casting is less concentrated into Lich form compared to the Live version; the current version means you're significantly behind as a DC caster if you don't pick Lich form. Moving away from that restrictive gating was done intentionally.

The Resistances added bulk up the caster's magical defenses, which is also a thematic element of Liches; if people have another Lich-thematic set of stats in mind (that isn't "Liches get better DCs, and are therefore better at being Pale Masters than any other Pale Master form") we're up for potentially moving things around.

The most iconic abilities of a lich are their vast magical knowledge and their resilience due to their phylactery. I know you don't want anymore self-rez abilities in the game, so what about something like this (playing off their bonus negative amp):

Rejuvenation: When your hit points drop below 20% of maximum, you gain +100 Negative Amplification for the next 10 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 180 seconds.

[Bobby88888]

Enough with the feather fall already please. Wraith form looks good, until you get the end end and see you gain feather fall and that debuff makes using it a net loss. In fact, it would be really great if you guys could create a universal toggles that turned all feather fall sources equipped/active from spells on/off. It gets really tiresome when people cast feather fall on others for griefing. I had a really cool build concept started forming in my head when I was reading this but there is no way it will work with feather fall on wraith form which is just sad Yes I know it had feather fall in the old version too, which is why I never used it.

Really needs to be fixed on all the forms/stances/toggles in the game too, really is a major turn off from using them. Shadow form in Shadow Dancer, Celestial form in warlock.

As an aside note it would be awesome if there was also a universal toggle that turned all effects that change your threat gen on or off (both the ones that reduce and increase it) It sucks when you keep making nice set bonuses on gear but make the items all have threat modifying effects, which make items weaker, not even neutral net power change. /rant off.

But seriously, do it. Please. No more feather fall on stances, it makes them completely unusable.

Also, I don't think you should allow positive healing on undead form, it really does interrupt the theme. Party members can already aid pale masters if they wish to. Cocoon provides a temporary hit point shield, not just healing, which gives a pale master time to heal.

[Memnir]

You'll still probably have to deal with it, Devs have thought about this issue through and through, they found this compromise to be the best (and I agree) so it is now here to stay, and put to the test.

All I'm saying is, you are of course welcome to give your opinion (that's the point of this post after all) but don't think any instant that this will change anything in the final result by that large (i.e removing of the 50% pos.), especially when the other ,at the very least, other half is disagreeing with you.

Oh, I know it. I don't really expect anyone to agree with my points of view - let alone the Devs. When it happens - great! But, it's never something I go into anything expecting.

[jskinner937]

Wow 10 pages on a 2 day year old thread.

At first glance I like the new healing capabilities. I really do not see much reason other than to be a pale master although. Not enough abilities or SLAs, still kind of bland and lacking the power boosts you commonly see with revamped trees in my opinion.

[btolson]

• Deathly Tough: 15 Maximum Hit Points
• Deathly Power: +10 to Negative Energy Spellpower.

These two are definitely too weak.

Deathly Tough seems better off as +5% HP.

Deathly Power should probably be dependent upon wizard levels. Perhaps gain Negative Spellpower equal to 10 + wizard level, and an additional Universal Spellpower equal to 5 + wizard level/2? This would also restore some of the spellpower that's currently being removed from the tree.

[Paladin_of_Power]

Very glad to see Pale Master getting the update it deserves and needs.

Positive Energy healing.... not a fan. Positive and Negative Energies are polar opposites, you should not be able to benefit from both. If you choose to exist and thrive by the realm of Death, you must make compromises. Instead how about adding some Negative Healing Amp in each of the cores, and give a Negative Energy Burst SLA? Make Harm and Inflict spells have the same range as their corresponding Heal and Cure spells, and put Harm scrolls on vendors.

Unholy Avatar...... using Negative Energy to damage Undead, who are truly and by Lore healed by Neg Energy. Not a fan. Wizard already has several means to deal with undead. Instead, how about using their existing, native Necromancy spells and provide SLA's for the following spells. Similar to how Cleric Domain SLA's work. Grant them at predetermined levels, once a certain # of AP has been spent in PM Tree (Part of Cores I imagine). And On a separate timer from the spell.

• Disrupt Undead
• Command Undead
• Halt Undead
• Undeath to Death
• Control Undead

Add an AOE disrupt dead at an appropriate level (10?).

Would have liked to see some special abilities directly attached to each Undead Form. Such as..

• Zombie: Slashing DR
• Vampire: Full Time Regeneration and summon a pack of wolves.
• Wraith: Symbol of Fear / Electric Loop / Black Dragon Bolt SLAs.
• Lich: Natively Immune to Cold, Cold Fire Shield clicky, Mantle of Invulnerability up all the time, etc. The phylactery idea already mentioned was awesome.

I think its important to keep the Lore and flavor of the Pale Master intact.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

Personally, I really hope this works out. Currently playing a Insta Kill/CC/off-tank at the moment. Would continue to pay absurd amounts of cash if I could accomplish the same or better in an arcane form. That aside, I'm in favor of most of the changes and noticed some pretty clever solutions. So I'm mostly left with 3 things I'd like to comment on.

• Core 1: Dark Reaping: For each Core Ability in this tree you get +3 Negative Spell Power and +3 Negative Healing Amplification

The 3 negative healing amp here seems weird right? Perhaps a typo? Most other amp effects are a minimum of 5 and are a multiple of 5. No real issue if its supposed to be 3, but just seemed weird.

• Shroud of the Zombie: While in this form, +4 Constitution, +20% damage with attacks but you attack 20% slower than normal. You gain +3 PRR, +3 MRR.
• Zombie: While in Zombie Form, +20 Melee Power & 10 PRR. +20% Racial Bonus to maximum Hit Points.

Is the 20% damage to attacks also applying to spell attacks? In any case, I'm personally not a fan of attacking slower. Sure, big damage numbers are nice, but its just less fun to attack like I'm slowed all the time. I'd rather see something to off-set the negative of not being an aasimar than something offensive (leave that to the other forms). In something like a more like its protection form (even more % bonus to hp, prr and mrr). Or maybe instead of that 20 melee power, let us buy off that 20% attack speed penalty? May not have the perfect answer here, but my fear is that this form will be deemed useless because of that penalty and I really want to enjoy this form. I like having hit points and defenses that let me take a few attacks. That's what is attracting me to this form. I'd rather see it lean into that than try to spit its time between being a dps option and a durability option.

• Dark Discorporation SLA (as per the Warlock spell... Because Pale Masters should get to turn into bats and float away).
• Reactive Discorporation: When your HP drops below 50%, gain Dark Discorporation for 20 seconds. This effect still ends if you attack. This effect may only trigger once every 60 seconds.

Super cool but a trap of an ability. I can't recall if aura's break DD, but even if they don't, players are typically too active to get much use from it. Especially the reactive version.

However, if it's meant to be more of an escape ability... a solution! Make it a Leap/Abundant Step like-ability that places DD or DD-like effect on you. Personally a leap with a longer cool down than 15 seconds hurts my soul not that I'm spoiled by Leap of Faith and Abundant Step, but do what you gotta do I guess.

Think about it. If you're running away players typically reach for their heal or leap button (or CC if they have option) not a defense buff that likely isn't going to save them. Tying it to a leap would be ideal! Plus Leaps are possibly one if not the most fun abilities in the game. An option arcane's struggle to acquire.

Oh, also someone mentioned a self-rez option for the lich form in place of its defenses... +1 vote to that.

Thanks for reading!

PS. Since I'm thinking about it. More leaps plz. They're so much fun that I don't even make builds without a leap in them anymore. Cannith Boots 10 min cool down doesn't count. Make em thematic sure, but if I could wish for anything, it'd be to have more leap abilities. Thanks!

[Paladin_of_Power]

Loving the changes but i have three questions.

1 - Will Negative Energy Burst be fixed so it wont be absorbed by spell absorption equipment?
2 - Will Wizards/Sorcerers someday get Evard's on their spell list? I mean, its the best arcane spell on DDO imo and the classes who should have it actually cant.

1. I sure hope so. That in itself will help with self healing. And some player cross healing to PM's.
2. Seen and idea that instead of tentacles, make it skeletal arms come outta the ground and grabby grab. That would be cool. Keep Evards with Warlocks. This would keep it thematically correct.