the fear of the soloist.

[silinteresting]

The biggest fear that people have for hybrids are soloists.

the above is a quote captured from another post about hybred build/items.

i would like to premise this by saying this is not an attack against the persons quote i have
used but i found it rather odd to my mind at least and worth perhaps its own thread.

there are a myriad of reasons of why people solo this fine game of ours, some do it because
of there limited time being able to play, some because for whatever reason they are unable to find
groups in there level range and difficulty level they are comfortable with and some because of the
challenge. i personaly fall into the last catergory and it is this catergory i would like to discuss.

for me personaly i love to solo, i like to see how far i can push a build and myself to be able to
tweek things within the rules of our game. to be able to know if i can solo a quest at a given level.
for me i see this as an achievement. if im able for instance to solo a quest chain at lets say reaper 7.
after putting in the work and effort needed to get items (sometimes you need two or three gear sets
for the different parts of a quest), learning what different destiny's work best in what quests. (yes
this does on occassions mean you have to change destiny maybe three or four times when running
a chain). the length of time needed in each quest can also be very high. i have on occassions spent
two to three hours running a quest only to find i get wiped out near the end and even though this
is very frustrating it is also part of the process of completing your goal, its learning even though
it sucks when it happens but the sense of achievement when its completed is great.

there are a few other things i would like to say concerning the above but alas ive run out of time
have to go to work soon so from what youve read above and how i like to do things how am i a
threat to this game because to have a fear of something you must believe its a threat to something
else?

i know this is a longish post for that i appologise but im at a loss on how getting a couple of items
perhaps designed with a hybred in mind is causing people to fear the soloist.

your fiend sil

[Epicstorms]

The only reason I fear solo players is because they tend to go against ideas like server merges and anything that would improve grouping.
I think decisions in this game should be to make grouping better. If people decide to solo that's fine, but it should not work against the core of an MMO, which imo is grouping.

[silinteresting]

The only reason I fear solo players is because they tend to go against ideas like server merges and anything that would improve grouping.
I think decisions in this game should be to make grouping better. If people decide to solo that's fine, but it should not work against the core of an MMO, which imo is grouping.

i can only speak for myself here and i have nothing against server merges
in anyway shape or form. i have nothing against grouping or anything the
devs do to improve grouping. infact i welcome the idea of making grouping
better as that may mean it makes soloing harder which in turn makes it
harder for the solo player which in turn makes it more fun for me as i may
have to think outside the box a little more. i guess im kinda odd in that
respect.

your friend sil

[MacRighteous]

The only reason I fear solo players is because they tend to go against ideas like server merges and anything that would improve grouping.
I think decisions in this game should be to make grouping better. If people decide to solo that's fine, but it should not work against the core of an MMO, which imo is grouping.

I call BS - Soloers (in my experience) generally don't care about these things (which is not the same as "go(ing) against" an idea) and only care if they put in anti-solo mechanisms. Quest designs that encourage grouping by making it anti-solo is lazy, un-imaginative and just plain bad form! It's a practice that SSG hasn't done much of lately - but early DDO embraced this philosophy in spades and made some of the most popular quests of that time have some anti-solo mechanism in it that was supposed to "encourage" grouping, but only discouraged solo play.

Soloers already accept that there are parts of this game that they will never be a part of (Raids and Raid gear and Raid crafting and Raid rewards) that is your grouping platform and that is where grouping decisions should end - the rest of the game is for all styles of playing, from perma-death to role players to soloers to groupers or any other style of playing, including the 3 people who want to PvP. We all spend the same time and effort in this game and spend the same color of money and we all should be a part of the decisions made for the general game to the extent that SSG lets any of us participate in.

Marginalizing and devaluing player participation by promoting exclusion based on playstyle preference just comes across as more leet snobbery

I see you groupers - I've spent the last 13 years watching you guys call for Turbin/WB/SSG to "give you a reason" to group or "provide an incentive" to run a dungeon or make it "easier to find groups" You get buddy XP bonuses, you get all the best gear, you have less grind as matts and gear drop more in grouper runs and its still not enough for some of you and sometimes some of you believe the Devs should FORCE players to group with you so you can fulfill your agenda easier... meanwhile many of us solo'ers are happily running quests just for the fun and challenge of it (it certainly isn't for the gear or XP or efficiency) and many of us really don't understand why you need us to play your game.

Now having gotten that /rant of my chest, I realize that it's a generalization and does not apply to all groupers- or soloist either for that matter - so i'm not talking about you - personally - I'm talking about the guy standing next to you... and he's kind of a spoiled rotten jerk, I imagine he didn't get much discipline in his youth and recieved many participation trophies for having special farts or something.

anyway suzy - don't fear me or the reaper - fear is the mind killer.

[Pilgrim1]

Woot, i got quoted! And it was used to talk about something tangental to what i was talking about, woe is me.

Just poking fun, i like soloing to.

[cdemeritt]

I'm a soloist because it suits me. I work odd hours and often only get to play in off hours. Sometimes those hours shift for a bit, and I'm now playing at a different time. I don't want to wait around for 15-30 minutes to find a group for a quest I can complete in 15 minutes. I also don't want to have to run a quest on a difficulty I really don't want to play because it is the only group available. But these reasons are mine, and not really important.

However, I am against a server merge, not because I'm a soloist, but because Turbine/SSG doesn't have the best track record for making such changes. A bunch of friends lived through the LotRo server merge, and at best the describe it as a unmitigated cluster..., at worse 2 quit Lotro over it. We just recently had a major downtime outage due to a simple dataceter move. This doesn't inspire me with confidence in there ability to handle what would go into a server merge, with all the issues with names/guilds/etc. I put a lot of time/effort into building my personal guild. If I were to lose that in a merge, I'd likely be done with the game. With SSG Track record, I wouldn't bet against many people losing toons/guilds/items/etc., and then be offered a Heart of Wood or something to replace it. Don't forget, every name of every toon that is on each server would need to be dealt with and over 13 years, most servers have a lot more inactive characters than active.

[Enoach]

I will say this, I'm not against soloing - from time to time I do this myself for various reasons.

However, I want to point to your short list of reasons...

1. their limited time being able to play,
2. unable to find groups in there level range and difficulty level they are comfortable with
3. some because of the challenge

But there are a couple others that I believe make up a significant subset

The I'm just not currently in the mood to deal with other people. It is not a premiant state of being, but could also involve blaring 80s Hair Bands while running full tilt through a dungeon, singing and banging your head to the rhythm.

Then there is the group that only solo by choice or by choice of the community as either they know they are not group friendly or the community knows they are not group friendly. I'm sure we all have run into this type and on some level are ok with it and even thank the ones that purposefully do this because they know.

These above reasons are ones I don't have Issue with. Where my issue comes in is when there is a demand that all quests cater to solo play. My reason is because I feel that ties Developers hands in creating challenge. The group you claim to fall into looking for challenge looks for ways to overcome the mechanic, the group I have issue with are the ones that claim mechanic sucks and should be changed because they can't do it, or be troubled to learn how to overcome it.

[slarden]

I solo/2-man about half the time so I understand the concerns of both the soloist and people that want to group. Unfortunately the reality is that the power gap makes grouping even more complex so you either end up running something you would prefer not to run or soloing. Hopefully with Sharn there will be some extended end game play with raiding.

For grouping in high skulls specialists tend to be more popular which leads to more min/maxing and it can lead to those characters being garbage for soloing or short-manning.

For solo play generalists tend to work better and simply dropping from 10 skull to 6 skull solo for example makes that min/maxing unnecessary - it's better to strive for more balance. I find shooting for 6 skull solo is the sweet spot because I am still effective in 10 skull and I only notice the loss from not min/maxing in a few isolated spots.

Clearly hybrids are more solo-friendly because they are more versatile, which is neither good nor bad - it just is. I've found SSG to be very bad at social engineering. They should focus on builds that are fun, as they've seen to do more in recent years and not try to force grouping through game design - it doesn't work best case scenario and worst case scenario it backfires by reducing population. People are going to do what they want to do - you aren't going to force people that only want to run with friends or want to solo to suddenly want to pug. Taking away enjoyable options is more likely to make them enjoy the game less with no real benefit for the game in general.

[Dalris_Thane]

i know this is a longish post for that i appologise but im at a loss on how getting a couple of items perhaps designed with a hybred in mind is causing people to fear the soloist.

I'm a soloist. My wife is a raider. She made me play EverQuest... raiding... FOR EIGHT YEARS almost every day. I still haven't forgiven her for that.

She said it simply in 1999 : "You can always solo on your own time on single player games. MMOs are designed as group games. Every solo-er is someone that is playing a MMO like a SPG... which is frustrating to see when you're trying to get your 72 person raid going. Feels like doing housework alone when everyone else is watching TV."

To clarify = recruiting was housework to her. The actual raid was fun to her.

Games have changed since then to devote resources to soloists... and therefore my wife has basically quit gaming with the computer. She's back to PnP with 10+ player groups. Not as big... but she's making due... except for still missing those 72 people raids.

You can disagree with her all you want. Hell... I do. But that's the mentality.

[silinteresting]

Where my issue comes in is when there is a demand that all quests cater to solo play. My reason is because I feel that ties Developers hands in creating challenge. The group you claim to fall into looking for challenge looks for ways to overcome the mechanic, the group I have issue with are the ones that claim mechanic sucks and should be changed because they can't do it, or be troubled to learn how to overcome it.

well said. totaly agree.

your friend sil

[Livmo]

I like to PUG, but I guess I'm moar of a Fringer : ) )

[silinteresting]

I'm a soloist. My wife is a raider. She made me play EverQuest... raiding... FOR EIGHT YEARS almost every day. I still haven't forgiven her for that.

She said it simply in 1999 : "You can always solo on your own time on single player games. MMOs are designed as group games. Every solo-er is someone that is playing a MMO like a SPG... which is frustrating to see when you're trying to get your 72 person raid going. Feels like doing housework alone when everyone else is watching TV."

To clarify = recruiting was housework to her. The actual raid was fun to her.

Games have changed since then to devote resources to soloists... and therefore my wife has basically quit gaming with the computer. She's back to PnP with 10+ player groups. Not as big... but she's making due... except for still missing those 72 people raids.

You can disagree with her all you want. Hell... I do. But that's the mentality.

nice post.

there is nowdays a major problem with what she said back in 1999, lets take dragonage for example.
dragonage 4 was due for release a while back a single player game and one of the better ones imo.
alas it was postponed and now is coming no longer a single player but an mmo. the industry itself is
as far as i can see is changing, they have worked out that they can earn more money by doing this as
a single player game cant sell cosmetics etc etc like a mmo can. forbes actually released an artical about
this a couple days back.

your friend sil

[Ralmeth]

I both solo and group. When I solo it’s primarily because I have a limited amount of time to play and I don’t want to put a group together just to disband it (always glad to pass the star, but a lot of times I see the group break up). Sometimes I solo because I want to push myself and see if I can do something. Having said that, grouping is the most fun part of DDO, IMHO. It’s much more fun to hang out with other people, geeking out over D&D.

[NemesisAlien]

I'm a soloist too, but my reason is simplier, i'm GMT ++ while most of you are GMT --

[silinteresting]

Having said that, grouping is the most fun part of DDO, IMHO. It’s much more fun to hang out with other people, geeking out over D&D.

i guess this is where im lucky, i belong to a chat where a bunch of us that play
ddo have become friends over the years and even though we dont play together
much we can all do our thing but have a laugh and chat about different things.

your friend sil

[GrannyNooblet]

I'm mainly a soloist as well. As said, people's reasons vary. My own reasons are "role play" reasons. To my mind, DDO is eminently suited to role play. It's a Fantasy mmoRPG after all. At least I imagine it began that way, as did the entire genre of RPGs. As I've said elsewhere, for me it's about the story and being "in" the story. Like reading a good fantasy book or watching a good fantasy movie, and being a part of it rather than just watching it unfold. It's about rediscovering the wonder of a 10 year old reading Tolkein and imagining themselves as one of the characters. We forget these kinds of things as we grow up, and in my opinion, it's not a bad thing to start remembering again. Play shouldn't be work. The old stick about "all work and no play" became an old stick for a very good reason.

That said, since everyone's wants & needs are so varied, it's unusual, (understatement?), to run into anyone who actually wants to run a quest the same way I do. It's a rare person who actually enjoys going through a dungeon, creeping around corners and spending time to take down that archer perched on the ledge. Like a kitten slinking through the grass, stalking that big bad grasshopper. lol. Most people just want to plow through and take them out as quickly as possible and move on.

I like to go slow. Very slow. I don't run a quest just to get through it and get xp/favor/whatever. I like to run a quest for it's own sake. I dim the lights, put on the headphones, turn up the ambient sounds, and get into it.

If I run with someone else, their reasons for running it have to be taken into consideration. Nothing against those people, but I'm just not the sort to impose my wants on them and so I find myself just "running" the quest with them so as not to spoil their fun. I know there are a lot of folks "willing" to go through quests with others that way but more often than not their motivation is to help someone "get through" a quest and get their xp/favor/gear/whatever. I think that's really nice of them and I'm sure it's a help to some, but surely that can't be much fun for them. (insert picture of someone patiently tapping their foot and looking at their watch, while trying to keep a pleasant smile on their face for poor ol' Granny's sake. lol).

So like I said, I play solo because that way I can do it my own way without Real Life intruding on it.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

the industry itself is
as far as i can see is changing, they have worked out that they can earn more money by doing this as
a single player game cant sell cosmetics etc etc like a mmo can. forbes actually released an artical about
this a couple days back.

In my opinion : "always online" = DRM. So to say. I mean, forcing people to play online in an MMO is the best form of DRM one can think of. MMOs simply can't be pirated.
So, using the "always online" way is more interesting, because it creates more revenue. DRM caters to those people with a high money greed, cynically put.


Me, I'm rather a soloist, because in RL I have learned that I just can't trust everyone. Some good friends, yes, but not everyone. Being rather introvert doesn't make me a natural group player, either. For trusted friends, however, I'm almost always there willing to help out.
But some days are so bad I just want to close the doors behind me, and forget a sh**** work day.

Right now, I'm kind of relishing that "old school" look and feel of DDO because I'm kind of "burned out" from playing SWTOR for several years. I wanted a challenge again, I wanted a diversity in gear and skills again, so I returned to DDO. And I still believe they do a fine job with that.

I like to go slow. Very slow. I don't run a quest just to get through it and get xp/favor/whatever. I like to run a quest for it's own sake. I dim the lights, put on the headphones, turn up the ambient sounds, and get into it.

Oh, how well I do know that !

I just can't stand zerging people. I just can't.
Devs put so much effort into a raid or a quest and what do people do ? They are not noticing all these efforts ! They are zerging through it like through a grey tunnel !
Sorry, but I just can't understand zerging.

[Amorais]

I solo because I never get a chance to do anything in a group. If I'm a rogue, everyone just runs through the trap anyway and just chugs 10 pots after. If I'm a healer, everyone can self heal. If I'm a tank, the speed 30 9th lifer is already 7 rooms ahead of you. If I'm a mage, I get to buff at the start, after that mobs die so quickly 60% of my spells are wasted.

All the barrels are intact at the end of the quest. That's an anathema to me. Optionals are skipped. extras missed, nobody talks in chat. Only a "hello" at the start of the dungeon and "ty 4 grp" at the end.

When I solo, every barrel is smashed, every optional (thats possible to do depending on build) is done. I can cast spells, I can hit stuff. I can spend more than 3 milliseconds at a chest seeing if the item I looted is ok for my build...I can spend time making room for loot if my backpack is full. I can backtrack and use shrines I missed. I can plan. I can make time to get a cuppa mid dungeon.

I group when I need to if I need quick xp but I really do not enjoy it one bit. Every now and then you luck out and get a nice n slow group. Or I can spend 2 nights a week grouping with friends (which I do).

[cdbd3rd]

I'm a soloist. My wife is a raider. She made me play EverQuest... raiding... FOR EIGHT YEARS almost every day. I still haven't forgiven her for that......

I'm smiling behind my hand. I can only imagine.

I've got the exact opposite here. I Solo now. When I've tried getting mine to play, she's too worried that "someone will see me doing something stupid." Literally her words. I was in game at the time and was like, "You mean like dancing in the street for no reason?" and typed /dance on my character. "Or running off a cliff and crumpling on the sidewalk below?" and promptly ran off the harbor cliff. (That kinda lost it's impact [pun intended] because I had my FF equipped.)

And yet, I still solo.

[krimsonrane]

I call BS - Soloers (in my experience) generally don't care about these things (which is not the same as "go(ing) against" an idea) and only care if they put in anti-solo mechanisms. Quest designs that encourage grouping by making it anti-solo is lazy, un-imaginative and just plain bad form! It's a practice that SSG hasn't done much of lately - but early DDO embraced this philosophy in spades and made some of the most popular quests of that time have some anti-solo mechanism in it that was supposed to "encourage" grouping, but only discouraged solo play.

Soloers already accept that there are parts of this game that they will never be a part of (Raids and Raid gear and Raid crafting and Raid rewards) that is your grouping platform and that is where grouping decisions should end - the rest of the game is for all styles of playing, from perma-death to role players to soloers to groupers or any other style of playing, including the 3 people who want to PvP. We all spend the same time and effort in this game and spend the same color of money and we all should be a part of the decisions made for the general game to the extent that SSG lets any of us participate in.

Marginalizing and devaluing player participation by promoting exclusion based on playstyle preference just comes across as more leet snobbery

I see you groupers - I've spent the last 13 years watching you guys call for Turbin/WB/SSG to "give you a reason" to group or "provide an incentive" to run a dungeon or make it "easier to find groups" You get buddy XP bonuses, you get all the best gear, you have less grind as matts and gear drop more in grouper runs and its still not enough for some of you and sometimes some of you believe the Devs should FORCE players to group with you so you can fulfill your agenda easier... meanwhile many of us solo'ers are happily running quests just for the fun and challenge of it (it certainly isn't for the gear or XP or efficiency) and many of us really don't understand why you need us to play your game.

Now having gotten that /rant of my chest, I realize that it's a generalization and does not apply to all groupers- or soloist either for that matter - so i'm not talking about you - personally - I'm talking about the guy standing next to you... and he's kind of a spoiled rotten jerk, I imagine he didn't get much discipline in his youth and recieved many participation trophies for having special farts or something.

anyway suzy - don't fear me or the reaper - fear is the mind killer.

I'm a soloer and MacRighteous speaks my mind in this instance.