Reaper Endgame THF Paladin

[palladin9479]

THF really is that bad, it's severely outpaced by all other styles. Maul wolves work because they aren't THF and instead are Animal Fighting builds. A maul build without Wolf sucks similarly as other THF builds for the same reason.

Class-design wise, however, you'll be unlikely to find SWF build on the top of the dps chart. A Silvanus Maul build is far outpacing any SWF build, or tempest / rogue TWF build. On a blanket scale SWF is better than THF, and for a poorly designed class like Pala, I'm with you, SWF is better. But I wouldn't agree with SWF>TWF>THF, because it doesn't work in practical builds.

What you meant to say is Animal Fighting Wolves are at the top of the melee charts, which I wouldn't disagree with because they don't even take THF feats.

The jury's been out on this for awhile, SWF > TWF > THF in melee damage. Now class features can change this, Tempest Rangers have special bonus's to TWF and Barb's have their own bonus's to THF, Paladin has no special combat style specific bonus's.

We are in a Paladin thread discussing Paladin DPS builds. If I wanted to be pedantic I would say something like "the best Paladin DPS is a 18 Rogue 2 Arti Inquisitive".

Before this Paladin life I did pure Fighter which involved 11 Epic TR's in a row, and I never used the same build twice in a row. Meaning one eTR I would run THF, another TWF, another SWF, another Vanguard and so forth, so really got to compare the different fighting styles without class specific modifiers. Then again on Paladin I did the same thing, mostly cause I wanted to try out revamped Divine Crusader and also wanted to get three more Divine and Primal eTR's. Everything I'm talking about is in that context, since other class's get radically different enhancement abilities. Without a special set of abilities to favor one fighting style over another, SWF > TWF > THF.

[A-O]

THF really is that bad, it's severely outpaced by all other styles. Maul wolves work because they aren't THF and instead are Animal Fighting builds. A maul build without Wolf sucks similarly as other THF builds for the same reason.



What you meant to say is Animal Fighting Wolves are at the top of the melee charts, which I wouldn't disagree with because they don't even take THF feats.



We are in a Paladin thread discussing Paladin DPS builds. If I wanted to be pedantic I would say something like "the best Paladin DPS is a 18 Rogue 2 Arti Inquisitive".

Before this Paladin life I did pure Fighter which involved 11 Epic TR's in a row, and I never used the same build twice in a row. Meaning one eTR I would run THF, another TWF, another SWF, another Vanguard and so forth, so really got to compare the different fighting styles without class specific modifiers. Then again on Paladin I did the same thing, mostly cause I wanted to try out revamped Divine Crusader and also wanted to get three more Divine and Primal eTR's. Everything I'm talking about is in that context, since other class's get radically different enhancement abilities. Without a special set of abilities to favor one fighting style over another, SWF > TWF > THF.

You are severely underestimating a 14clk/5barb/1fgt iconic with maul. +2 crit range from blessing, +1 from LD, and +1multi/range from holy sword, and +1extra multi from FB puts it at 15-20x5. Far beyond the multiplier of any 1h (16-20x4, or 14-20x3).
I also get the feeling you aren't twitching as THF. Are you?

You say things like

virtually none of the damage is from the base weapons die

And

Finally there is a difference in how the animation is treated whenever the player moves, SWF doesn't slow down it's attack speed while running

To build a solid case, you can't just disregard things and/or not have knowledge of what you're talking about. Again, my point isn't that THF is better for a pala than SWF. I agree with you there. But I can still agree with you even though I disagree with some of the things you say.
Point in case being the two sentences above. Again, 40 deadly isn't "virtually none of the damage". Further, on animations, THF is known for getting *more* attackspeed while moving (twitching), so I fail to see how that's a pro in SWF's column, especially when you take into account the far superior reach of the THF animation (your argument of mobs being kited). I am aware you can twitch as SWF as well, but I don't have the aspd numbers for it, and from experience it isn't as significant as THF twitching,

[palladin9479]

Nope not underestimating at all, your just not reading. Maul's only work on wolves because their not even taking THF feats. Plus I don't see a single level of Paladin in there, just a war domain cleric trying trying to use Barb enhancements to shore up a bad DPS base.

Here let me quote again, just in case you didn't read earlier.

The jury's been out on this for awhile, SWF > TWF > THF in melee damage. Now class features can change this, Tempest Rangers have special bonus's to TWF and Barb's have their own bonus's to THF, Paladin has no special combat style specific bonus's.

So you'd have to go 14 Paladin, 5 Barb, 1 Fighter instead and that's been done and it's weaker then the build posted by the OP. Your really just playing a weak Barb with some divine levels. Just go wolf instead and get all the benefits without having to deal with THF weakness.

but I don't have the aspd numbers for it

You realize that SWF is permanently twitching... it's one of the reasons you don't slow down attack speeds while moving. Trying to exploit combat animations doesn't do much for SWF because it comes prepackaged as already exploited. Sword and Board also works this way as it's the same combat animations.

Now I expect the personal insults to start soon, ohh wait...

I also get the feeling you aren't twitching as THF. Are you?

Well I guess we could escalate to ***** size or something next.

Listen you can have whatever opinion you want and cheer for the underdog if it makes you happy. The developers have already acknowledged that THF suffers compared to the other styles due to number of attack rounds. SWF simply attacks faster, procing more double strikes, more crits, more blitz stacks and so forth. TWF also attacks faster, especially on class's that can get 100% off hand proc rate with lots of off hand double strikes. Wolf form takes everything that would be attributed to THF, throws away the THF feats and merges it with SWF attack speed.

Excellence is achieved by exploiting strengths, not shoring up weakness's. Since this is a Paladin DPS thread we're discussing how to best do damage as Paladin main, meaning 11 or more levels in Paladin and a Paladin T5. If we were to jump into meta-gamed builds then just ditch Paladin enhancements completely and go full inquisitive with possibly some levels in Arti or Rogue. *BAM* instantly in the top DPS bracket, but not really playing "Paladin" now are we.

[A-O]

Nope not underestimating at all, your just not reading. Maul's only work on wolves because their not even taking THF feats. Plus I don't see a single level of Paladin in there, just a war domain cleric trying trying to use Barb enhancements to shore up a bad DPS base.

Try reading again.

Listen you can have whatever opinion you want and cheer for the underdog if it makes you happy. The developers have already acknowledged that THF suffers compared to the other styles due to number of attack rounds. SWF simply attacks faster, procing more double strikes, more crits, more blitz stacks and so forth. TWF also attacks faster, especially on class's that can get 100% off hand proc rate with lots of off hand double strikes. Wolf form takes everything that would be attributed to THF, throws away the THF feats and merges it with SWF attack speed.

Excellence is achieved by exploiting strengths, not shoring up weakness's. Since this is a Paladin DPS thread we're discussing how to best do damage as Paladin main, meaning 11 or more levels in Paladin and a Paladin T5. If we were to jump into meta-gamed builds then just ditch Paladin enhancements completely and go full inquisitive with possibly some levels in Arti or Rogue. *BAM* instantly in the top DPS bracket, but not really playing "Paladin" now are we.

Take a look at my sig. you think I'm basing anything off "feeling" and "underdogs". We'll have a new version out for the public soon, and you can count it yourself.


Anyways, what my take away is, English isn't your first language. That's okay, it isn't mine either, but it kinda makes any reasonable discussion pointless if 50% of what people say is lost to you. You can't just go around saying 1+1=3, and be offended when people say it's wrong.

[tpbtoc]

@Gilga1

What would you change on this build with the upcoming changes to KoTC?

[Gilga1]

What would you change on this build with the upcoming changes to KoTC?

If u45 goes live with the announced changes, pally THF will become top tier dps. Best dps in some specific content.
Build and gear will be very different ofc, with very limited weapon options: Reflection (meh... you will swap weapon a lot on pally for fervor bonus), Constellation (meh, ask your party members to debuff...), Tremor (best one... so Scourge or PDK, LD).
Featuring huge mp, base dmg and amazing special attacks, for sure THF pally will be top tier.

[Arlathen]

If u45 goes live with the announced changes, pally THF will become top tier dps. Best dps in some specific content.
Build and gear will be very different ofc, with very limited weapon options: Reflection (meh... you will swap weapon a lot on pally for fervor bonus), Constellation (meh, ask your party members to debuff...), Tremor (best one... so Scourge or PDK, LD).
Featuring huge mp, base dmg and amazing special attacks, for sure THF pally will be top tier.

My thoughts exactly, but I'm having real trouble figuring out the gear setup to slot +10 Ins Strength. My gear setup is identical to yours, with the exception of still trying to obtain the MoD ring.

Since Ins Str +10 is practically +15 Damage in the new THF world, I really feel like we shouldn't miss out on this. I also feel like we still need Ins Con +10 (120HP!), so since Ins Cha +10 is now worth +2.5 Attack, Damage and Tactics under the new Divine Might is this the one to miss out on?

Any thoughts/ideas?

[palladin9479]

My thoughts exactly, but I'm having real trouble figuring out the gear setup to slot +10 Ins Strength. My gear setup is identical to yours, with the exception of still trying to obtain the MoD ring.

Since Ins Str +10 is practically +15 Damage in the new THF world, I really feel like we shouldn't miss out on this. I also feel like we still need Ins Con +10 (120HP!), so since Ins Cha +10 is now worth +2.5 Attack, Damage and Tactics under the new Divine Might is this the one to miss out on?

Any thoughts/ideas?

Insightful Strength comes easily on two items, both eye slots.


https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legend...ecision_Lenses

Or here you can put it on here

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legend...llective_Sight

If you get lucky you can get it from THTH

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Silver_Dragonscale_Helmet


As for DPS, THF Paladin is in no way share or form top tier DPS, it doesn't even beat out SWF or TWF Paladin much less Barb / Fighter / Druid or the multitude of combinations they form. Paladin got a severe nerf to go with the bonus's in the form of Divine Might. Before DM was +30~40 Insightful Strength that translated into +20-25 or even 30 base damage from a location that only provided 7~7.5 otherwise. Now it's +15~20 insightful deadly, a place where we already get +8 from and can't really substitute it.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legendary_Hammerfist

The amount of base damage Paladin lost is greater then what it gained from this update. It did get a decent chunk of permanent melee power and a bunch of short duration situational melee power. The big issue is that short term melee power requires you to not only fight specific mobs to charge it up, but it's only effective on those specific mobs and once you stop fighting it fades away and you have to restart building it. Best way to do that is with a fast swinging weapon that doesn't slow down when you move around to chase after monsters as SSG now gives them all Kobold AI. it would of been better too give a static +25~30 melee power when fighting undead / evil outsiders then a charge mechanic that fades.

[Gilga1]

Any thoughts/ideas?

Hey. Best option is Silver Dragonscale Capelet from thth.
Collective goggles, Bloodrage, cloak and family set are 'locked' slots. Rest it's a personal preference.
You can always have ins cha on or just as swap. And DM change makes you helm slot free (more room for 2x LGS).

The amount of base damage Paladin lost is greater then what it gained from this update.

Around 400 base damage and the highest mp in ddo, coupled with 100% double strike, good striketrough and a vast array of special attacks.
Sure, some mp is situational, but endgame/raids are full of undead/evil outsiders.
Barb and bears will be strong too ofc.

[Veritaus]

If u45 goes live with the announced changes, pally THF will become top tier dps. Best dps in some specific content.
Build and gear will be very different ofc, with very limited weapon options: Reflection (meh... you will swap weapon a lot on pally for fervor bonus), Constellation (meh, ask your party members to debuff...), Tremor (best one... so Scourge or PDK, LD).
Featuring huge mp, base dmg and amazing special attacks, for sure THF pally will be top tier.

All THF regardless of class will be much better boosted but still will not be as good as castors and other range because the nature of melee dps. At least THF will be good now instead of mediocra. You still will get your but kicked in melee on reaper.

[Bloodskittle]

All THF regardless of class will be much better boosted but still will not be as good as castors and other range because the nature of melee dps. At least THF will be good now instead of mediocra. You still will get your but kicked in melee on reaper.

I'm not gonna argue that they'll be on par with sorcs, but did you see Tronko and Vincino two man slavers and TOEE pt on r10 as melees?
Melee is playable and good its just much harder to play well than casters/high dps ranged

[Arlathen]

Hey. Best option is Silver Dragonscale Capelet from thth.
Collective goggles, Bloodrage, cloak and family set are 'locked' slots. Rest it's a personal preference.
You can always have ins cha on or just as swap. And DM change makes you helm slot free (more room for 2x LGS).

I had a stab, here's what I have so far. The first setup is pre-raiding, with the exception of the Trinket and tbh you could craft up a Cannith Trinket in the interim for other bonuses until you have a Chrism.

Armour: Leg Enforcers Plate (Fort 214%, PRR +54, Heal Amp +85, HP +81)
Necklace: Leg Family Recruit Sigil (Enh Deadly +17, Armor-Piercing +33, RF, TS)
Gloves: Leg Hammerfist (Ins Doublestrike 11%, Enh Seeker +21, CCI)
Trinket: Bloodrage Chrism (Pro Dstrike +10%, Pro PRR +30)
Ring 1: Leg Celestial Topaz Ring (Enh CHA +21, Parrying +10, Wizardry +440, Lesser Displacement)
Bracers: Brand of Kalok Shash (Enh STR +22, Qua Acc +8, Qua Deadly +5, Fire Absorb 53%)
Goggles: Leg Collective Sight (Enh CON +21, Ins STR +10, Qua Resists +4)
Cloak: Cloak of the City's Champion (Ins CON +10, Qua PRR +13, Parrying +10, Extra Smites)
Belt: Slavers Chains (Qua STR +4, Sheltering +45, Stunning +20, Accuracy +28, )
Ring 2: Circle of Malevolence (Ins Sheltering +23, Resistance +14, Vitality +60, Intimidate +25, +160% Incite)
Helmet: Leg Mask of the Vuilkoorim (Enh DEX +19, Armour Piercing +31, Dodge 19%, Reflex Save +16)
Boots: Spectre Boots (Ghostly, Enh Dstrike +23%, Seeker +21)

Ins Accuracy, Ins Deadly, Ins Combat Tactics now all being provided via Divine Might.
Melee Alacrity / Striding being provided by Blinding Speed.

The next, raid-gear-orientated setup improves the Combat Tactics significantly for both Dire Charge and Holy Retribution and ups the Armour Piercing which I think is significant, but does cost you the Ghostly.

Swap Necklace: Family Recruit Sigil for The Family's Blessing - Gain Enh Dstrike 24%, Ins Armour Piercing +17, Keep Deadly +17
Swap Boots: Spectre Boots for Piston Boots - Gain Stunning +24, Qua CM +5, Fulcrum Shift, Lose Ghostly)
Update Belt: Change Stunning +20 for Shatter +20

If this can lift Paladin Tactics to work in your chosen Reaper content, then I think its worth sacrificing Ghostly for. For raiding, stick on the Spectre Boots again.

Happy to hear any thoughts on improvements.

Also: https://ddo-gear-planner.netlify.com/ Incredibly useful tool.

Thread with author here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...anning-Website

[Mozik]

Is WF still the way to go ? Or other better options if you are using tremor or so?

[adrian69]

Is WF still the way to go ? Or other better options if you are using tremor or so?

WF is nice because it picked up 15 MP and 8 PRR/MRR. Bladeforge gets Recon, 10% worse Positive Healing, takes less slashing damage, everything else is pretty much as wash other than WF has tactic. but BF can get Silvanus for +2 range. I think going BF or Scourge would be near as good if you already have a tremor lined up down the road, or can obtain loot fast from OBH. WF has slightly better defensive stats, +15 MP, and can heal a little better with psp.

[Palna]

WF is nice because it picked up 15 MP and 8 PRR/MRR. Bladeforge gets Recon, 10% worse Positive Healing, takes less slashing damage, everything else is pretty much as wash other than WF has tactic. but BF can get Silvanus for +2 range. I think going BF or Scourge would be near as good if you already have a tremor lined up down the road, or can obtain loot fast from OBH. WF has slightly better defensive stats, +15 MP, and can heal a little better with psp.

I thought BF could only take Lord of Blades?

[tpbtoc]

I thought BF could only take Lord of Blades?

Yes. Also only Forgotten Realms races, excluding Morninglords, can get Silvanus. So no Silvanus for Bladeforged.

[Gilga1]

Is WF still the way to go ? Or other better options if you are using tremor or so?

No. PDK or scourge. I prefer PDK for 20% striketrough.

[adrian69]

I thought BF could only take Lord of Blades?

Yeah, lame. I did a paladin BF on Lamma preview 45 part 1 and got options for Blades, Silvanus, and Watch something for choices. Just tested it on Live and it is LoB only. No wonder why someone told me I was crazy when I replied I was using Silvanus. There was a ton of odd stuff going on with that build anyway. I'd probably stay Scourge despite the 20% strike-through chance with PDK. Extra survivability is extra survivability

[SonilasFx]

humm a have a question... atm, tremor is best way for max dps paladin using thf? or Baz'Morath is best?

[Gilga1]

humm a have a question... atm, tremor is best way for max dps paladin using thf? or Baz'Morath is best?

Yes. Baz’Morath can’t be a favored weapon.