Looking for opinions on end game Vistani builds

[Sydril]

Getting close to finishing a 20 or so heroic past life binge and planning to settle into epics a bit. I expect to build a 18 rogue / 1-2 X Vistani TWF and wondering about the best splash for dps or some other interesting perk.

Ear marked enhancements are:

41 Vistani (Tier 5 and capstone)
31 Assassin (for tier 4 stacking crit multiplier)
3 Acrobat (for movement speed boost)

There's 5 leftover AP's to squeeze in elsewhere, and I have 6 Racial AP's as well. I plan to go Human for the extra feat and expect to take completionist


So I was considering taking 1 level of Barbarian for some really pimped out run speed, alternately there's one or two monk for extra feats and possible +12% doublestrike if I take master of forms (3 feat purchase cost)

I know it's a bit hodgepodge but I haven't played as much over the last few years and just can't build them like I used to.

Thoughts? My focus is on maximizing TWF dps and survivability, and I never got the taste for assassinate but I've rather enjoyed Vistani quite a bit.

[NemesisAlien]

Kensai dagger focus?

[kamimitsu]

I like to put 8 AP to get Harper "Know the Angles". It's two minutes of 1/2 your INT bonus to damage and tactical feats for like 15 SP. So, with a decent SP item, it's basically indefinite if you remember to keep casting it. With a decent INT, that's a truckload of damage and a big boost to Dire Charge (assuming you're using Dire Charge).

As for the 2 levels... I tend to keep my rogues pure for the Assassin Tier 5 and Capstone, but you've already said you'd prefer the Vistani stuff (which I can understand if your playstyle doesn't suit assassinating). I could see going Fighter for feats and access to Kensai stuff. Monk probably has the most synergy (as you mentioned). I'll defer to my betters regarding splashing other classes, though, and leave it at that.

[Carpone]

The best "splash" for DPS is going pure Rogue for the Assassin capstone (10 MP and 4 SA dice). 41 Assassin, 28 Vistani, 3 Acrobat, 8 Falconry for max Assassinate DC. Go Harper instead of Falconry if you want +DPS and Dire Charge DCs instead of Assassinate DCs.

[Sydril]

The best "splash" for DPS is going pure Rogue for the Assassin capstone (10 MP and 4 SA dice). 41 Assassin, 28 Vistani, 3 Acrobat, 8 Falconry for max Assassinate DC. Go Harper instead of Falconry if you want +DPS and Dire Charge DCs instead of Assassinate DCs.

The Vistani Capstone is +10 melee power more than assassin and +5% attack speed. I don't see how that is better than vistani, especially since I already said I'm not interested in jumping in and out of stealth for assassinate and measure the foe bonuses.

What am I missing?

The 41 / 28 / 8 / 3 spread you mention is definitely worth considering though thank you.

[Thrudh]

So I was considering taking 1 level of Barbarian for some really pimped out run speed, alternately there's one or two monk for extra feats and possible +12% doublestrike if I take master of forms (3 feat purchase cost)

Take 2 barb levels... Blood Tribute is super nice... 400 temp hp every 3 seconds at cap during a tough fight is very useful.

But 2 monk would be very good too...

What alignment are you? If this character is already built, your choice may have already been picked.

[Sydril]

Take 2 barb levels... Blood Tribute is super nice... 400 temp hp every 3 seconds at cap during a tough fight is very useful.

But 2 monk would be very good too...

What alignment are you? If this character is already built, your choice may have already been picked.

I typically play True Neutral but it's more out of habit than anything, alignment is not locked in.

I was considering splashing 1 favored soul (Follower of Vol) , this would access the charisma based know the angles enhancement from War Soul for 4 AP's and also provide a bonus magical training feat. I'll probably have around 40ish charisma at cap. Blood tribute is tempting I have loved it in the past playing barbarians but I just don't think I can squeeze it in.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Ideally you go Halfling for more dps/defense.

as already mentioned, best splash for rogue is pure 20

[SemanticMirage]

Ideally you go Halfling for more dps/defense.

as already mentioned, best splash for rogue is pure 20

I disagree, unless you care about assassinate which is extremely useless in end game content w/o insane investment just due to gear limitations, if you really want to insta kill melee play a monk, 20 assassin over a 2 monk splash is worse imo.

20 rogue over 18 nets you 1d6 SA and a rogue feat, which at that point is going to be something like crippling strikes or skill mastery pretty meh

the 2 monk splash gets you 2 extra feats (but you have to spend 3 feats to get the monk stances so a wash more or less) but w/ that its 12% DS +4 dex and 1.5w from dance with flowers twist and the option for more survivable stances if you care

Vistani capstone is 20 mp 5% attack +2 all stats, Assassin is 10 mp 4d6 SA and +dex and int, the extra 10 mp and attack speed handily beat the 4d6 SA

Assassin and Vistani t5's are both kinda **** tbh both don't give you anything to huge besides again assassinate which isn't great in high skulls, if anything Vistani is better from a pure DPS standpoint due to the +10, +3 to hit and damage, and the 25% uptime +1 crit and threat

If you really want SA, you could even go 18 1 monk 1 ranger and put 1 point if you have the universal tome into DWS for the 1 sneak attack so split would be 41 vis, 31 assas, 8 harper, 1 DWS

I don't see how in any situation if you're pushing for pure DPS pure rogue is stronger than a splash.

Quick edit: from this guy: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...f-you-beat-me: hes running a 111 assasinate dc which just isn't good enough for high skulls sharn content, my monk had a dire charge dc of 118 and it still failed a good amount, assassinate is a tough sell in the current game state w/ it not taking combat mastery bonuses

[Hobgoblin]

I disagree, unless you care about assassinate which is extremely useless in end game content w/o insane investment just due to gear limitations, if you really want to insta kill melee play a monk, 20 assassin over a 2 monk splash is worse imo.

20 rogue over 18 nets you 1d6 SA and a rogue feat, which at that point is going to be something like crippling strikes or skill mastery pretty meh

the 2 monk splash gets you 2 extra feats (but you have to spend 3 feats to get the monk stances so a wash more or less) but w/ that its 12% DS +4 dex and 1.5w from dance with flowers twist and the option for more survivable stances if you care

Vistani capstone is 20 mp 5% attack +2 all stats, Assassin is 10 mp 4d6 SA and +dex and int, the extra 10 mp and attack speed handily beat the 4d6 SA

Assassin and Vistani t5's are both kinda **** tbh both don't give you anything to huge besides again assassinate which isn't great in high skulls, if anything Vistani is better from a pure DPS standpoint due to the +10, +3 to hit and damage, and the 25% uptime +1 crit and threat

If you really want SA, you could even go 18 1 monk 1 ranger and put 1 point if you have the universal tome into DWS for the 1 sneak attack so split would be 41 vis, 31 assas, 8 harper, 1 DWS

I don't see how in any situation if you're pushing for pure DPS pure rogue is stronger than a splash.

Quick edit: from this guy: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...f-you-beat-me: hes running a 111 assasinate dc which just isn't good enough for high skulls sharn content, my monk had a dire charge dc of 118 and it still failed a good amount, assassinate is a tough sell in the current game state w/ it not taking combat mastery bonuses

math is hard.

[Shadow_Jumper]

I disagree, unless you care about assassinate which is extremely useless in end game content w/o insane investment just due to gear limitations, if you really want to insta kill melee play a monk, 20 assassin over a 2 monk splash is worse imo.

20 rogue over 18 nets you 1d6 SA and a rogue feat, which at that point is going to be something like crippling strikes or skill mastery pretty meh

the 2 monk splash gets you 2 extra feats (but you have to spend 3 feats to get the monk stances so a wash more or less) but w/ that its 12% DS +4 dex and 1.5w from dance with flowers twist and the option for more survivable stances if you care

Vistani capstone is 20 mp 5% attack +2 all stats, Assassin is 10 mp 4d6 SA and +dex and int, the extra 10 mp and attack speed handily beat the 4d6 SA

Assassin and Vistani t5's are both kinda **** tbh both don't give you anything to huge besides again assassinate which isn't great in high skulls, if anything Vistani is better from a pure DPS standpoint due to the +10, +3 to hit and damage, and the 25% uptime +1 crit and threat

If you really want SA, you could even go 18 1 monk 1 ranger and put 1 point if you have the universal tome into DWS for the 1 sneak attack so split would be 41 vis, 31 assas, 8 harper, 1 DWS

I don't see how in any situation if you're pushing for pure DPS pure rogue is stronger than a splash.

Since I dont want to get into a pointless arguement, this is my response:

https://images.app.goo.gl/YaGRNEsz5sTv2SAv6

Quick edit: from this guy: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...f-you-beat-me: hes running a 111 assasinate dc which just isn't good enough for high skulls sharn content, my monk had a dire charge dc of 118 and it still failed a good amount, assassinate is a tough sell in the current game state w/ it not taking combat mastery bonuses

My endgame assassin is currently running a 75 DC and can get a fair amount of mobs. its not useless.

[Hobgoblin]

My endgame assassin is currently running a 75 DC and can get a fair amount of mobs. its not useless.

dont listen to this guy. i am told he only runs reaper casual!

[Arkantios]

dont listen to this guy. i am told he only runs reaper casual!

Yeah, what he said.

[Hobgoblin]

Yeah, what he said.

wise words

[Arkantios]

wise words

Oh, thank you.

[Hobgoblin]

Oh, thank you.

ur welcome.

[SemanticMirage]

Since I dont want to get into a pointless arguement, this is my response:

https://images.app.goo.gl/YaGRNEsz5sTv2SAv6



My endgame assassin is currently running a 75 DC and can get a fair amount of mobs. its not useless.

I don't get the point of not having a discussion but either way here's a symbiot video on vistani:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cCZxU_tfJo

He doesn't run pure. Pure is worse from a dps perspective and I have no idea how you're getting 75 fort dc to land in high skulls lol DC casters have issues with well over 100 in sharn

[LiveFast]

I don't get the point of not having a discussion but either way here's a symbiot video on vistani:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cCZxU_tfJo

He doesn't run pure. Pure is worse from a dps perspective and I have no idea how you're getting 75 fort dc to land in high skulls lol DC casters have issues with well over 100 in sharn

18rogue/1monk/1fvs

[Shadow_Jumper]

I don't get the point of not having a discussion but either way here's a symbiot video on vistani:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cCZxU_tfJo

And I don’t see where it says that’s the absolute maximum dps on a vistani. It’s just a really good dps build, and you’re assuming it’s the absolute best. You’re assuming that it’s the absolute best because you (me actually) don’t have another video to compare it to. You’d do far better to not parrot other players and do your own thing.

He doesn't run pure. Pure is worse from a dps perspective and I have no idea how you're getting 75 fort dc to land in high skulls lol DC casters have issues with well over 100 in sharn

Most of the people who play this game are bad, and think in maximums. The essence of min/maxxing is not only to push your maximum, but to not over push it into the excessively powerful. The extremely good players? They worry more about the minimum DC than the maximum. There’s like 5 threads about people who are bragging about their endgame DCs right now. But they probably have the same chance I do to actually land an assassinate on an ogre in R10 WPM.

Casters/Ranged mobs, and other no-will monsters have incredibly low fort saves. If you target low fort save mobs, you can get away with an incredibly low DC. As I said. My assassin runs 75 DC and can land his assassinate on over 80% of the mobs I target.

Most of the DC casters who you are claiming are unable to land 110+ are not truely thinking about how to play their caster to the best ability. They will complain as soon as their DC isn’t effective against the highest save mob in the game. They are not thinking to the degree that they should. Truely, the best casters I know generally have second tier DCs like 100-110 necro instead of 115+. They’re the best because they know what champs are immune to what spells, what mobs have extremely high saves to certain spells, and which spells they are weak to.

In short, (and to finally get more to the point) your AP split requires so many exessive AP spending in 2 trees that it actually ends up being worse off. I get +6 MP from Harper due to not excessively spending in VKF, whereas you spend an extra 18 AP for +4 MP and 5% attack speed. And in the process I can pick up another 3d6 SA dmg, and 3 MDB/Max Dodge. Your 18 rogue split looses you a total of 5d6 SA damage (for a total of 8d6 SA). AND your split doesn’t have KtA which is a rather significant DPS/Utility boost.

You are over maximizing. Think in minimums, not maximums. Think about how few AP you can spend and your build will be a lot better off for it.

[SemanticMirage]

And I don’t see where it says that’s the absolute maximum dps on a vistani. It’s just a really good dps build, and you’re assuming it’s the absolute best. You’re assuming that it’s the absolute best because you (me actually) don’t have another video to compare it to. You’d do far better to not parrot other players and do your own thing.



Most of the people who play this game are bad, and think in maximums. The essence of min/maxxing is not only to push your maximum, but to not over push it into the excessively powerful. There’s like 5 threads about people who are bragging about their endgame DCs. But they probably have the same chance I do to actually land an assassinate on an ogre in R10 WPM.

Casters/Ranged mobs, and other no-will monsters have incredibly low fort saves. If you target low fort save mobs, you can get away with an incredibly low DC. As I said. My assassin runs 75 DC and can land his assassinate on over 80% of the mobs I target

Again I don't see how anything you've said so far is indicative that pure is stronger than a splash. Symbiont has been and still is a well respected builder and min maxer when it comes to building optimized toons. If you want to please take a video of your pure assasin running a dps test and see how it compares and while your at it I'd love to see you assassinating something in r10 sharn welcome, maybe I've been playing wrong.

Either way I stand by the statement that pure rogue is weaker than a 18 2x splash. Take monk if you don't have double strike past lives/don't want ocean stance dodge. Barb for +6 to hit and damage, fvs for 4 point KTA, etc etc, 20 rogue doesn't net you enough to be worth it.