When the only real tank build is a weird multiclass...

[Clemeit]

Reaper mode has become the new normal after the devs introduced the reaper trees.
That made it manditory

That's an excellent aside. That, and reaper first-time bonus being significantly greater than that of Elite.
"Oh, you're not running r1? Why should I waste my pot."

[MrChipinator]

Normally I do have any arti in my tanks because you can hit 7k hp without it and my healers like the fact that with a stack of HP it is easier to heal without a -25% hit.

Can confirm, am his healer, do like HP

[jskinner937]

Can confirm, am his healer, do like HP

But artificer does not always mean WF or BF.

[PsychoBlonde]

You might be confused in thinking that loading a bunch of PRR/MRR/AC in the 5th and 6th core would solve the problem. There are unique things about each class that you can draw on outside of just inflating numbers. Tanks just like DPS arent just always looking at one static factor for how to build a toon. Normally I do have any arti in my tanks because you can hit 7k hp without it and my healers like the fact that with a stack of HP it is easier to heal without a -25% hit. I tweaked my current build for THTH...and it had nothing to do with stats. I am leveraging 4 different sources (3 from trees and one from a class ability) of untyped damage reduction to negate the evil damage the raid spits at you. I don't care what you do with the cores at 5 and 6 in order for me to do a build like this I have to branch across multiple classes. There will be issues you can't solve by loading up cores...unless you're going to give every class divine might and improved mage armor.

The point isn't to NEGATE multiclass builds, but to make pure builds POTENTIALLY decent. At no point did I say "take away the stuff that's lower down in the trees".

I have yet to even once see a tank hit over 5k hp without artificer. I'm not talking about temp HP, boosted HP, reaper bonus hp. I'm talking about "HP I have standing around in the Marketplace with no buffs". Did you load on the LGS gear or something? Let's see a screenshot of your tank loadout if it's so amazing.

Considering that you have a long and varied history of MASSIVELY inflating any claims you make about your builds, I don't buy that you've got 100% uptime or even remotely close on something like that.

[lyrecono]

Sorry for the necro but i seem to have missed all the replies.

Why? If you do what is necessary to convert all three enhancement trees for pally and fighter to tank spec to compete with someone splashing in three classes to access three tank trees you will hear an uproar with all the non tank palliy and fighter builds. Do you know how many kensai splash builds you are going to utterly destroy? Oh wait, you're thinking about putting all that power in one tree so you don't have to mess up the other trees...that's a much better idea since one tree should hold the equivalent power of the best tank trees from three different classes. What you want to see is impossible to balance just like it is impossible to consolidate all the necessary DPS abilities in one tree to encourage against splashing. Keep in mind they tried that with monks by making the back end so heavy and by the time they were done they nerfed it way down so that it made far more sense to splash a monk when before the monk pass that wasn't true and it was better to go pure.

Screw them, let them tr.
Using 3 non related classes like that to min max the s#!t out of the meta? That would mean the boot in my d&d group
Allowing the arty hp to stack was a big mistake made by the devs, players should be forced into a 4 week vacation for what in every other game would have been an exploit.
Then again, in well ballanced games, a support class like artificer would have been given abilities to support others, not to buff himself into ungodly tank status.
It's a disconnect between the devs and the core material, they have tried to put melee options on nearly all the classes and let the origional melee and tank classes rot.
Smart devs wouldn't be surpriced when their players beat their super hard r10 content in the first week of introduction.
They should have known better what their multiclassed were capable ofd and corrected it asap.

Multiclassing was meant to create diversity, not to outshine the core classes in every aspect of their design.

This is the solution. We need a Universal Tanking tree. Within that tanking tree maybe a core ability could be to allow the EDF to stack with enhancements bonuses from other trees. Maybe Core 5 can change the EDF stance to sacred or better yet grant an entirely different bonus to HPs like alchemical. And load the tree with most of the good tanking goodies in the Cores and T5. That way the multi class tanks have to choose between this tree and the ones they invested in previously.

And I completely disagree with the one who said you need to multi-class to tank. The point of multi-classing was to make character building flavorful and interesting. Tank roles used to have so many other choices. However new content has forced one direction and I just do not see how that preserves what has always made DDO what it is and different than other MMOs.

This tanking tree could also have a multi-selector to choose con to hit/dmg or charisma to hit/dmg similar to Harper and falconry. This would fit nicely as I could see a lot of divines possibly using this tree as well. Maybe even a bard tank, which would be cool imo.

Or con to both hit and damage (unlike the dwarven mess)
Anyway, tanking the hardest content requires/encourages multiclassing, that's a core design flaw, it means it no longer creates diversity but a huge leap in power when you multiclass. So either those classes have such weak abilities later in their cores or trees, that it becommes more prudent to multiclass then to stay in your tank tree.
It also means the content is poorly ballanced for (pure) tanks.

Then again, content that turns everyone but the (multi class?) Into 1 hit wonders already begs the question why anyone would play some classes at all. Oh wait that ship already sailed and people are farming reaper points on dedicated builds.

The devs killed of build diversity, again......

[Rull]

. . . you done messed up.

Druid bear tank? Nyet.
20 Paladin tank? Nope.
20 Fighter tank? Are you kidding?
20 Monk tank? Haha no.
20 Barbarian tank? No no no. Wait . . . also no.
Fighter/paladin/artificer tank? Yep, that's the one. Or maybe Fighter/artificer/wizard.

Why did this happen?

1. you have to stack multiple tank trees together to be able to tank because you need 5000+ hp, 300+ PRR, 200+ MRR to be able to survive the damage. And you still can't actually tank anything you can't intimidate.
2. the devs completely invalidated the hp boosts from *all* tank trees except artificer with Epic Defensive Fighting for *no reason whatsoever*.

I find it only logical that very specialized builds are weird multiclasses.

For instance fighter has many facets, some defensive, some offensive. For a well-rounded character, take the offense from fighter and the defense from fighter. But for an all-out defensive character, take the defense from fighter and the defence from paladin and the defense from some other class.

If you want better pure class tanks, the best way would be to introduce a defensively-focused classless enhancement tree.

[Requiro]

(...)
2. the devs completely invalidated the hp boosts from *all* tank trees except artificer with Epic Defensive Fighting for *no reason whatsoever*.

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

Where is petition for this?

[jskinner937]

I find it only logical that very specialized builds are weird multiclasses.

For instance fighter has many facets, some defensive, some offensive. For a well-rounded character, take the offense from fighter and the defense from fighter. But for an all-out defensive character, take the defense from fighter and the defence from paladin and the defense from some other class.

If you want better pure class tanks, the best way would be to introduce a defensively-focused classless enhancement tree.

It makes no sense in lore or in terms of DDO in game interpretation of the table top.

Since KT came out, if you want to play Reaper Raids you need a particular build to tank effectively. It’s as though the raid was designed around a particular type of tank. This has pigeon-holed a tank builder into a very specific build type. It has made a mundane job even more mundane because now you have no room for flavor or preference. It’s beyond build optimization at this point, it’s mandatory.

No other role has been affected by this since KT. Sure you need to fill certain roles (ranged, heals, trapper, DPS, cc, instakills) but each allows for certain variations. I am all for specialized roles and in mid high skill end game having that become more important, however this goes beyond that logic. I would be like designing a raid that only hurler instakillers were effective, or only a gnome trapper can do the trap boxes, only wolf maul DPS and only cleric healing aura can party heal.

Yes we need a universal defensive tree.

[lyrecono]

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

Where is petition for this?

Yeah, this makes sence
I would sign that petition.

Then all they need to do is fix child of the mountain from 4% hp to 10 % hp (racial bonus) and add con to hit to throw your weight around.
Dwarf would still lag behind assimar, lacking all the stance perks and lay on hands but i think thats fair, assimar is a paid race, where someone picked the best bits of paladin and put them in a racial tree.

[IBCrabin]

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

Where is petition for this?

Change LGS set bonus to artifact bonus and open up to ideas of newer sets with artifact hp% bonus.

[Aelonwy]

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

Brilliant! And far more logical consistency than current. Where do I sign?

Then all they need to do is fix child of the mountain from 4% hp to 10 % hp (racial bonus) and add con to hit to throw your weight around.
Dwarf would still lag behind assimar, lacking all the stance perks and lay on hands but i think thats fair, assimar is a paid race, where someone picked the best bits of paladin and put them in a racial tree.

Yep. This would help dwarf, I almost never see dwarves anymore as PCs. I also wish there were a way to have tactics off con, as it is - without significant investment in strength even if you're a con based dwarf its very difficult to land any tactics but Stunning Shield/Shield Rush.

Change LGS set bonus to artifact bonus and open up to ideas of newer sets with artifact hp% bonus.

Agreed. Is it just me or did it seem to others like this raid reward in particular^ seemed to warp the game? Or is it just that it always seems like new content after a raid, is balanced around having goodies from the previous raid? Monster HP, damage and saves after a raid often seem to escalate either invalidating previous raid loot or making it such that you've only achieved status quo again. With something like this huge bump in player HP, while cool, it created a tremendous disparity and for a time at least difficulty creating compelling new loot. Converting it to an artifact bonus that competes with newer sets with artifact HP is a reasonable idea, IMHO.

[Chai]

EVERY...
SINGLE...
THING...
...before the multi-class build, got nerfed at some point after its revamp.

[jskinner937]

Sorry for the necro but i seem to have missed all the replies.




Screw them, let them tr.
Using 3 non related classes like that to min max the s#!t out of the meta? That would mean the boot in my d&d group
Allowing the arty hp to stack was a big mistake made by the devs, players should be forced into a 4 week vacation for what in every other game would have been an exploit.
Then again, in well ballanced games, a support class like artificer would have been given abilities to support others, not to buff himself into ungodly tank status.
It's a disconnect between the devs and the core material, they have tried to put melee options on nearly all the classes and let the origional melee and tank classes rot.
Smart devs wouldn't be surpriced when their players beat their super hard r10 content in the first week of introduction.
They should have known better what their multiclassed were capable ofd and corrected it asap.

Multiclassing was meant to create diversity, not to outshine the core classes in every aspect of their design.



Or con to both hit and damage (unlike the dwarven mess)

Dwarf TYWA had its place, until reaper came to be. And its not just the to hit missing, its the stat to tactics that hurts as well. Gimp.

[Kaboom2112]

The point isn't to NEGATE multiclass builds . . .

Heck with that, nerf these abonimations like they are red-headed monk step-children.

[janave]

Brilliant! And far more logical consistency than current. Where do I sign?




Yep. This would help dwarf, I almost never see dwarves anymore as PCs. I also wish there were a way to have tactics off con, as it is - without significant investment in strength even if you're a con based dwarf its very difficult to land any tactics but Stunning Shield/Shield Rush.




Agreed. Is it just me or did it seem to others like this raid reward in particular^ seemed to warp the game? Or is it just that it always seems like new content after a raid, is balanced around having goodies from the previous raid? Monster HP, damage and saves after a raid often seem to escalate either invalidating previous raid loot or making it such that you've only achieved status quo again. With something like this huge bump in player HP, while cool, it created a tremendous disparity and for a time at least difficulty creating compelling new loot. Converting it to an artifact bonus that competes with newer sets with artifact HP is a reasonable idea, IMHO.

[IBCrabin]

If they want to encourage diversity they have to change how class enhancement tree works with other class enhancement tree - changes to each class tree to encourage pure builds and other type of splash will also boost the current fotm build.

suggestion is to get rid of the ability to stack enhancement from different tree that has same affect. i.e. 50% armor or shield AC, max dex bonus, etc.

Increase the tier 5 from 50% to 100% AC boost to offset the current stacking bonus from multiple class tree.


Adjust how different class play as a tank - tweak the level 18 and lvl 20 core benefit.

Since Fighter can't self heal like a paladin, have some passive AC with the 18 and 20 core
Give paladin a heal type spell at lvl 18 or 20 core and focus more on prr/mrr.
Druid and Arti can use a bit more of each to fit somewhere between a fighter's durability and the paladin's self healing.

[jskinner937]

If they want to encourage diversity they have to change how class enhancement tree works with other class enhancement tree - changes to each class tree to encourage pure builds and other type of splash will also boost the current fotm build.

suggestion is to get rid of the ability to stack enhancement from different tree that has same affect. i.e. 50% armor or shield AC, max dex bonus, etc.

Increase the tier 5 from 50% to 100% AC boost to offset the current stacking bonus from multiple class tree.


Adjust how different class play as a tank - tweak the level 18 and lvl 20 core benefit.

Since Fighter can't self heal like a paladin, have some passive AC with the 18 and 20 core
Give paladin a heal type spell at lvl 18 or 20 core and focus more on prr/mrr.
Druid and Arti can use a bit more of each to fit somewhere between a fighter's durability and the paladin's self healing.

I agree with this. And it’s more true to PnP.

[Ballrus]

. . . you done messed up...

Was wondering...

Changing a few words, we have:

When the only real thf build is a weird multiclass...

Druid bear thf? Nyet.
20 Paladin thf? Nope.
20 Fighter thf? Are you kidding?
20 Monk qstaves build? Haha no.
20 Barbarian thf? No no no. Wait . . . also no.
Barbarian/druid/fvs thf? Yep, that's the one. Or maybe Barbarian/druid/cleric.

That's the DDo.

Ps. Sorry, i couldn't resist.

[lyrecono]

Dwarf TYWA had its place, until reaper came to be. And its not just the to hit missing, its the stat to tactics that hurts as well. Gimp.

Oh, i agree, dwarfs were useless prior to reaper, tactics need to be boosted too.
The issue got worse when the loot became garbage and keeping multiple stats maxed out didn't work out.
Maybe a paid iconic dwarven race with 1.5 times the con modifier to tactics, the same way pdk gets their charisma score to tactics?

Was wondering...

Changing a few words, we have:

When the only real thf build is a weird multiclass...

Druid bear thf? Nyet.
20 Paladin thf? Nope.
20 Fighter thf? Are you kidding?
20 Monk qstaves build? Haha no.
20 Barbarian thf? No no no. Wait . . . also no.
Barbarian/druid/fvs thf? Yep, that's the one. Or maybe Barbarian/druid/cleric.

That's the DDo.

Ps. Sorry, i couldn't resist.

Yeah, sadly this is so true.
When the ED changes were anounced, steelstar and cordovan seemed to be aware of the issue.
So maybe we get a 2hf fix in 2022? And 3 nerfs in 2023?.
I blame the jocks that bulied the devs in their youths for the poor 2hf support in ddo....

[PurpleTimb]

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

I'm all for this. How do I make this happen?