When the only real tank build is a weird multiclass...

[kain741]

I'm not saying that pure builds should be the best builds.

Let's keep in mind that the only role in the game that is best done by a pure build is a DC caster. You will always get more ranged and melee DPS with a mutt for the same reasons as the tank...you are picking and choosing the best of all 3 classes trees. The only reason casters are sheltered from this is due to spell progression by level and the importance of caster levels...and these have nothing to do with the enhancement trees. This is not a tank specific curse, but rather the optimization that comes when people are allowed to customize their characters...and at it's core is the beauty of DDO.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Thanks for the explanation.

[count_spicoli]

Let's keep in mind that the only role in the game that is best done by a pure build is a DC caster. You will always get more ranged and melee DPS with a mutt for the same reasons as the tank...you are picking and choosing the best of all 3 classes trees. The only reason casters are sheltered from this is due to spell progression by level and the importance of caster levels...and these have nothing to do with the enhancement trees. This is not a tank specific curse, but rather the optimization that comes when people are allowed to customize their characters...and at it's core is the beauty of DDO.

Dont believe this to always be true and falling into customizing your char should be the option to play pure class. Right now I wouldn't split an assassin or a tempest. Their capstones, adding sneak attack die and enhancements splits in their trees make it suboptimal to multi. Barbs are not bad to multi but are also strong choices to go pure due to the fb capstone and enhancement splits.

Dev's have stated they hate fighters and pallys. The changes and choices they have made involving them over last couple years have been bad. EDF not stacking with stances was bad enough for low end dps classes but the power surge change was just ridiculous.

Arti multi tanks are fine but there should be other option. Just changing EDF to stack with stances would be an quick fix that would not only help tanking for these classes but help with some survivability against their low dps in higher skills. Would prob make stances and the arti hp buff exclusive from one another tho or else your just back to arti with some ftr or pally little splash.

[kain741]

Dont believe this to always be true and falling into customizing your char should be the option to play pure class. Right now I wouldn't split an assassin or a tempest. Their capstones, adding sneak attack die and enhancements splits in their trees make it suboptimal to multi. Barbs are not bad to multi but are also strong choices to go pure due to the fb capstone and enhancement splits.

That's great but missing the point of optimization. Sure, you could leave a assassin or tempest pure...you could leave a Kensai pure too, but they aren't top DPS. If you want to MAX DPS then you need to multi. Granted the best version of assassin may be pure (this is still arguable), but that doesn't mean it's best DPS.

[TitusOvid]

That's great but missing the point of optimization. Sure, you could leave a assassin or tempest pure...you could leave a Kensai pure too, but they aren't top DPS. If you want to MAX DPS then you need to multi. Granted the best version of assassin may be pure (this is still arguable), but that doesn't mean it's best DPS.

Pure rogue outshines pure fighter dps-wise at this point in game. I guess it can even reach pure barb.

EDIT: I was proven wrong. Wolf, tempest, fighter, rogue, barb, apparently.

[janave]

I feel ya. The archetypes are dead.

[kain741]

Pure rogue outshines pure fighter dps-wise at this point in game. I guess it can even reach pure barb.

EDIT: I was proven wrong. Wolf, tempest, fighter, rogue, barb, apparently.

I know pure rogue outshines pure fighter...and a lot of other builds. That being said non-pure builds still out-DPS them.

[droid327]

Add a fourth stack of HPLs that can only be gained if you play a pure-class life...then at least there's something to run pure on every class for

[Bjond]

The word I dislike in this thread is "should". It's how we end up with ridiculous game systems -- stuff that makes no sense whatsoever, like fire dragons being immune to fire. Sounds great from a story standpoint, but it kicks fire magic folk right in the orb and right out of the game. "Should" is the epitome of bad game design. "Can" is the operative word for success and balance.

Can you make a tank? Yes? Great. Job done. Or, almost. What kind of effort does it take? How much time? Is that time more or less than the time it would take to make a DPS or a Healer? How needed is the role? Are there enough players making tanks to meet the demand?

I've not looked into what it takes for a high reaper DPS, but I did for a tank. I usually make one tank one heal and several dps for the MMOs I play. After looking at all the LGS and PLs required, I crossed tank off the list. It's laughable. I don't want to spend years (not hyperbole, literal years) farming and playing classes and races I don't want to play in order to finally play what I want. I want to make the character and play it. However, if other roles have to put those years in, too, it's balanced.

The worst problem I see for high reaper has got to be being stuck without enough fellow players to make high reaper groups. After finally arriving there after years of prep, will there even be enough like minded players to group with? Are there now? I get winged peeps in my EE/R1 groups now and then and they always seem kinda bored. And fast. The power doesn't creep, it LEAPS!

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The worst problem I see for high reaper has got to be being stuck without enough fellow players to make high reaper groups. After finally arriving there after years of prep, will there even be enough like minded players to group with? Are there now? I get winged peeps in my EE/R1 groups now and then and they always seem kinda bored. And fast. The power doesn't creep, it LEAPS!

Due to the vocal crowd everything might (or even will) get measured against Reaper or even High reaper. What i mean with that is this . People demand that their damage / survival / etc. MUST be so that people will get relatively smoithlessly through Reaper / High Reaper.

Or, in other words : Reaper is the Normal mode for some.

These "Reaper people" might even decide to demand that "Casual" difficulty gets erased from the game entirely.

In the end, what we see here is an arms race : Since more and more people play Reaper as their Normal mode, devs try to get Reaper more challenging, with the result of these vocal "Reaper people" demanding their skills etc. to get buffed.
Then, Reaper is no more a Challenge, but Normal Mode, but the devs still believe that Reaper should be a challenge, and increase the difficulty of quests. Because people don't play them on Casual anymore, they want to play them on Reaper difficulty, and therefore they demand Reaper difficulty of quests to get nerfed. Meanwhile the INCREASED difficulty of Casual and Normal gets left untouched, because non of the "Reaper people" cares for these 2 kinds of difficulties.

Arms race. With Newbies and Lowbies getting left behind, because no-one of the "Reaper people" wants them anymore

[Yokido]

I think a large deal of the problems players are encountering regarding game balance issues with reaper is that everyone thinks reaper is necessary to enjoy the end-game.

Reaper adds very minute benefits outside of reaper, so no, it isn't currently necessary to enjoy the end-game. If the devs could weigh in and maybe say something to the effect of, "I'm sorry, but not all builds will be able to run content on R10 regardless of how hard they try" that would help give us some clarity. Not all good builds will make the cut. A build isn't bad if it can't run end-game reaper.

[Kutalp]

I have a 42 AP Vistani with 8 rogue, 6 Occult barb, 6 Stalward def fighter. Timed up Vistani and Uncanny dodge clickies top of base avoidance supported by items. Dodge, uncanny dodge, evasion, reflex/fort saves, piled up hp. When the blurry, ghostly items and scrolls are added it becomes even weirder. Tumbling and umd ing heals makes it funnier.

I agree with the original post. Tanks and 'Dodgers' are mixed up alot in time. Meat shields did not get the best share. (Fighters, Paladins and as the last Tankbarians ?)


Meat shield (The Ancient True Tank Build we can only see visiting the D&D museum now)

[Ralmeth]

I agree that it seems very odd...I remember back in the day (cap was 20) when Warforged were required by almost every party leader to tank VoD. That one really ground my gears as I had a Paladin tank more capable than whatever random Warforged showed up, or the time when Chronoscope was the in-raid and you needed to have evasion to be the tank, or when Epic Defensive Fighting was released and specifically was made not to stack with the bonus hit points in the Defender trees, or how the game is designed such that a true tank is really only needed in highest difficulty settings. It kind of makes you think that the developers really don't like traditional Fighter and Paladin tanks...

[lyrecono]

The word I dislike in this thread is "should". It's how we end up with ridiculous game systems -- stuff that makes no sense whatsoever, like fire dragons being immune to fire. Sounds great from a story standpoint, but it kicks fire magic folk right in the orb and right out of the game. "Should" is the epitome of bad game design. "Can" is the operative word for success and balance.

Can you make a tank? Yes? Great. Job done. Or, almost. What kind of effort does it take? How much time? Is that time more or less than the time it would take to make a DPS or a Healer? How needed is the role? Are there enough players making tanks to meet the demand?

I've not looked into what it takes for a high reaper DPS, but I did for a tank. I usually make one tank one heal and several dps for the MMOs I play. After looking at all the LGS and PLs required, I crossed tank off the list. It's laughable. I don't want to spend years (not hyperbole, literal years) farming and playing classes and races I don't want to play in order to finally play what I want. I want to make the character and play it. However, if other roles have to put those years in, too, it's balanced.

The worst problem I see for high reaper has got to be being stuck without enough fellow players to make high reaper groups. After finally arriving there after years of prep, will there even be enough like minded players to group with? Are there now? I get winged peeps in my EE/R1 groups now and then and they always seem kinda bored. And fast. The power doesn't creep, it LEAPS!

A fire/red dragon should be immune to fire, by the time a sorc reaches dragons to fight, he should have more then enough spells to deal with it. Or a party he can support.
But i do agree on the tank bit, it's a bit exessive.
I see it as this: a pure class tank should have been able to tank the hardest content. The fact we, the players, are comming up with multiclass builds to compensate for the design flaws, is a clear sign that we're working with a patchwork of work arounds.

A good designer has plans ready, a roadmap that sais what numbers players must reach on each level.
Dev: New lv 13 content? Lets pull up the chart, ac needs to be this high, spell dc this high, lockpicking and disabling traps that high.

Devs shouldn't come up with an armor up update and turn it into abandonware some time later, that's a waste of dev time.
As it stands now, armor class is one of the most useless stats in the game, you either go all out to reach a good number or you forget about it.(wich most do)

Due to the vocal crowd everything might (or even will) get measured against Reaper or even High reaper. What i mean with that is this . People demand that their damage / survival / etc. MUST be so that people will get relatively smoithlessly through Reaper / High Reaper.

Or, in other words : Reaper is the Normal mode for some.

These "Reaper people" might even decide to demand that "Casual" difficulty gets erased from the game entirely.

In the end, what we see here is an arms race : Since more and more people play Reaper as their Normal mode, devs try to get Reaper more challenging, with the result of these vocal "Reaper people" demanding their skills etc. to get buffed.
Then, Reaper is no more a Challenge, but Normal Mode, but the devs still believe that Reaper should be a challenge, and increase the difficulty of quests. Because people don't play them on Casual anymore, they want to play them on Reaper difficulty, and therefore they demand Reaper difficulty of quests to get nerfed. Meanwhile the INCREASED difficulty of Casual and Normal gets left untouched, because non of the "Reaper people" cares for these 2 kinds of difficulties.

Arms race. With Newbies and Lowbies getting left behind, because no-one of the "Reaper people" wants them anymore

Reaper mode has become the new normal after the devs introduced the reaper trees.
That made it manditory

[Bjond]

A fire/red dragon should be immune to fire, by the time a sorc reaches dragons to fight, he should have more then enough spells to deal with it. Or a party he can support.

I was speaking a bit more generally rather than of specific DDO issues. For instance, I played a Wizard in EQ1. The devs there decided to make some encounters harder by adding magic-immune mobs. There ya go, might as well log off if your guild wants to do those and that's what people did (myself included). None of us made our characters to stand around and watch even if your guild is OK carrying you.

There was a classic protest by Necro's, too. They had a pan-server PvP contest and the two best necros faced-off and just "twitched" the entire time (EQ1 slang for conjuring mana batteries for other players, which is what Necros were reduced to in these immune raids). It was funny as hell, especially because the Dev referees got insanely mad and started yelling at them to fight or they'd be banned. Then they banned them.

So, when I'm saying something is bad for a game, I've probably literally seen it ruin a game for at least a subset of that game's population.

Reaper mode has become the new normal after the devs introduced the reaper trees.

I don't do higher than R1 unless I see a low reaper already formed. I definitely wont' start one because I can't solo higher than R1 and more times than not, I'll end up solo'ing the entire thing with an LFM up. Usually I just run LE for this reason. The gains from R1 v EE are tiny, though I do ADORE the extra SP from living souls.

The biggest problem I see with DDO right now is the split population; xTR + R1-R10 all conspire together to split up the population into very tiny subsets and make it MUCH harder to find people in your level range, difficulty desire, and goal du jour. I think they should seriously consider something similar to FFXIV-style scaling and power-caps for dungeons to fix that.

[DaviMOC]

Yeah. I agree with OP. Perfect balance is not possible without making building boring however art builds should see some competition specially with more traditional tanking classes/archetypes .Things started to get odd when vanguard arrived and shields became full fledged weapons. Good shields used to have good defense stats, now they are bad weapons that goes on offhand, some orbs and runearms are better defensive gear than a shield .

Would be nice if each tank tree had its own favored defensive kit that this tree would do better than any other( or splash) and different content would have better defined different tank requirements.that way we could keep things balanced without making everything the same or direct comparable. Splashing could and would produce better overall tanks but it would not be that far in front and leaving room for specialized pure class tanks on the sun.

Also that bias over WF and ART. I really cant stand grabbing rune arms, wf gear and repair gear 2,3, 4 times before i get what i want every time new content or loot arrives. Its funny how many Executioner's Docet I've dropped compared to how many executioner's platemail i've seen dropping. Same for plasma core and repair rings on sharn... I understand that this warforged/artificer side is a huge part of eberron/ddo's identity but many just want to enjoy the rest of the game.

There is no way to discuss balance wihtout considering high level challenge content. You need to push builds to limits too see its effectivness or have clear trade offs.

For example: Build X is good for low reapers because it tanks and does nice dps but build Y is better for higher reapers. For any non-reaper a bruiser fits it.

[jskinner937]

For starters, they could make a universal tank-oriented tree and fix the epic defensive fighting stacking issue. That way, anyone who wants to go full tank can use their class tank tree and the universal tank tree without having to deep splash ARTIFICER.

I'm not saying that pure builds should be the best builds. I'm saying it's ridiculous when the ONLY viable tank build is a hybrid with an ARCANE CASTING CLASS, and all these other classes that actually HAVE tank trees are actually garbage for tanking. As it stands now, there is no point in even TRYING to run a tank build on half of those classes, it's melee dps or nothing. So why even have the tank tree? That means they have an entire wasted tree--or TWO of them, on fighter and paladin, since Vanguard is a quasi-tank tree and also garbage.

This is the solution. We need a Universal Tanking tree. Within that tanking tree maybe a core ability could be to allow the EDF to stack with enhancements bonuses from other trees. Maybe Core 5 can change the EDF stance to sacred or better yet grant an entirely different bonus to HPs like alchemical. And load the tree with most of the good tanking goodies in the Cores and T5. That way the multi class tanks have to choose between this tree and the ones they invested in previously.

And I completely disagree with the one who said you need to multi-class to tank. The point of multi-classing was to make character building flavorful and interesting. Tank roles used to have so many other choices. However new content has forced one direction and I just do not see how that preserves what has always made DDO what it is and different than other MMOs.

This tanking tree could also have a multi-selector to choose con to hit/dmg or charisma to hit/dmg similar to Harper and falconry. This would fit nicely as I could see a lot of divines possibly using this tree as well. Maybe even a bard tank, which would be cool imo.

[kain741]

I see it as this: a pure class tank should have been able to tank the hardest content. The fact we, the players, are comming up with multiclass builds to compensate for the design flaws, is a clear sign that we're working with a patchwork of work arounds.

Why? If you do what is necessary to convert all three enhancement trees for pally and fighter to tank spec to compete with someone splashing in three classes to access three tank trees you will hear an uproar with all the non tank palliy and fighter builds. Do you know how many kensai splash builds you are going to utterly destroy? Oh wait, you're thinking about putting all that power in one tree so you don't have to mess up the other trees...that's a much better idea since one tree should hold the equivalent power of the best tank trees from three different classes. What you want to see is impossible to balance just like it is impossible to consolidate all the necessary DPS abilities in one tree to encourage against splashing. Keep in mind they tried that with monks by making the back end so heavy and by the time they were done they nerfed it way down so that it made far more sense to splash a monk when before the monk pass that wasn't true and it was better to go pure.

[PsychoBlonde]

It's not accurate that you get "the power of 3 trees" by multiclassing, because you simply don't have enough points to get the best stuff from multiple trees on ANY character build.

The problem is WHERE the "good stuff" tanking-wise is located WITHIN the existing trees, how it stacks, and also what the game demands from you qua tank to stay alive.

For instance, the core 18 and core 20 in the tank trees should be really good, the way it is in most DPS trees. They aren't. The cores on the tank trees are, in terms of *actually tanking*, COMPLETE GARBAGE. The actual "good stuff" in tank trees (inasmuch as there is any) is in the tier abilities, and the ONLY one that has a useful tier 5 ability right now is ARTIFICER because of the idiotic Epic Defensive Fighting stacking.

If the tank trees had useful EXCLUSIVE stuff and a level of effectiveness that was APPROPRIATE to the content and ACTUALLY STACKED, things would be different and you wouldn't need to have access to multiple tank trees to tank effectively.

[kain741]

It's not accurate that you get "the power of 3 trees" by multiclassing, because you simply don't have enough points to get the best stuff from multiple trees on ANY character build.

The problem is WHERE the "good stuff" tanking-wise is located WITHIN the existing trees, how it stacks, and also what the game demands from you qua tank to stay alive.

For instance, the core 18 and core 20 in the tank trees should be really good, the way it is in most DPS trees. They aren't. The cores on the tank trees are, in terms of *actually tanking*, COMPLETE GARBAGE. The actual "good stuff" in tank trees (inasmuch as there is any) is in the tier abilities, and the ONLY one that has a useful tier 5 ability right now is ARTIFICER because of the idiotic Epic Defensive Fighting stacking.

If the tank trees had useful EXCLUSIVE stuff and a level of effectiveness that was APPROPRIATE to the content and ACTUALLY STACKED, things would be different and you wouldn't need to have access to multiple tank trees to tank effectively.

You might be confused in thinking that loading a bunch of PRR/MRR/AC in the 5th and 6th core would solve the problem. There are unique things about each class that you can draw on outside of just inflating numbers. Tanks just like DPS arent just always looking at one static factor for how to build a toon. Normally I do have any arti in my tanks because you can hit 7k hp without it and my healers like the fact that with a stack of HP it is easier to heal without a -25% hit. I tweaked my current build for THTH...and it had nothing to do with stats. I am leveraging 4 different sources (3 from trees and one from a class ability) of untyped damage reduction to negate the evil damage the raid spits at you. I don't care what you do with the cores at 5 and 6 in order for me to do a build like this I have to branch across multiple classes. There will be issues you can't solve by loading up cores...unless you're going to give every class divine might and improved mage armor.