When the only real tank build is a weird multiclass...

[PsychoBlonde]

. . . you done messed up.

Druid bear tank? Nyet.
20 Paladin tank? Nope.
20 Fighter tank? Are you kidding?
20 Monk tank? Haha no.
20 Barbarian tank? No no no. Wait . . . also no.
Fighter/paladin/artificer tank? Yep, that's the one. Or maybe Fighter/artificer/wizard.

Why did this happen?

1. you have to stack multiple tank trees together to be able to tank because you need 5000+ hp, 300+ PRR, 200+ MRR to be able to survive the damage. And you still can't actually tank anything you can't intimidate.
2. the devs completely invalidated the hp boosts from *all* tank trees except artificer with Epic Defensive Fighting for *no reason whatsoever*.

[Yokido]

Why is 300 PRR necessary? There are ways of mitigating damage that aren't related to PRR... Such as regeneration/heal amp/temp hp (both reactive procs, like Angelic grace or improved demonic shield & proactive, like from the GS weapon proc that gives a temp 1k hp about every minute).

All in all if you combine all of the proc effects you can get some pretty good defensive capabilities when combined with displacement, AC, ghostly, dodge, and maybe even concealment.

Note that since IDR (Invisible DR) isn't real DR, it is calculated AFTER your PRR/DR reductions are applied, making them more effective.

Temp hp Procs:
Improved Demonic Shield: 20% chance for 120 temp hp, this equates to 24~ IDR.
Angelic Grace: 5% chance for 150 temp hp, this equates to 7.5~ IDR.

Heal Procs:
Healer's Bounty: 2% chance for a 90 hp heal, this equates to 1.8~ IDR without any heal amp.
Golem's Heart: 2% chance (can be increased, but has CD) for an average heal of 70hp, this equates to 1.4 IDR without any heal amp.

Damage Avoidance Proc:
Elusive Target: 5% chance to prevent being damaged at all. Note that this works well with Angelic Grace, Golem's Heart, and Demonic shield, since they state they only require being -hit-, not taking damage.

[lyrecono]

Why is 300 PRR necessary? There are ways of mitigating damage that aren't related to PRR... Such as regeneration/heal amp/temp hp (both reactive procs, like Angelic grace or improved demonic shield & proactive, like from the GS weapon proc that gives a temp 1k hp about every minute).

All in all if you combine all of the proc effects you can get some pretty good defensive capabilities when combined with displacement, AC, ghostly, dodge, and maybe even concealment.

Note that since IDR (Invisible DR) isn't real DR, it is calculated AFTER your PRR/DR reductions are applied, making them more effective.

Temp hp Procs:
Improved Demonic Shield: 20% chance for 120 temp hp, this equates to 24~ IDR.
Angelic Grace: 5% chance for 150 temp hp, this equates to 7.5~ IDR.

Heal Procs:
Healer's Bounty: 2% chance for a 90 hp heal, this equates to 1.8~ IDR without any heal amp.
Golem's Heart: 2% chance (can be increased, but has CD) for an average heal of 70hp, this equates to 1.4 IDR without any heal amp.

Damage Avoidance Proc:
Elusive Target: 5% chance to prevent being damaged at all. Note that this works well with Angelic Grace, Golem's Heart, and Demonic shield, since they state they only require being -hit-, not taking damage.

That's cute and all but on r8+ that equates to jack. Even in a casual r4 killing time, a pure paly, fighter or druid can't tank the dragon. You need a better build that what you suggested.
The greensteel procs (1k hp) is not something you want to give up your sentient weapon or absorbtion item for.

Temp hp is taken away prior to dr from what tanks experience. So kinda use impaired when smacked around for 6-10k

[TitusOvid]

No sry, Yokido. Those doesn't cover it at all. Because procs are not consistent. You need a solid base that is always working. Did you calculate the bad proc chance in your IDR?
EDIT: And I think they are affected by reaper penalty, too.
And depending of what difficulty you want to tank 300 PRR is on the low side. And besides that PRR is not the only problem. High MRR is as important as PRR.

There are a few more builds flying out there that are good tanks. But I agree with OP. It would be nice, if there was at least 1 pure build that could compete without the need of all PLs. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...din-Sharn-Tank

And the restrictions on EDF are stupid. The concept is a total fail. Always was, always will be.

Cheers,
Titus

[kain741]

Why is 300 PRR necessary?

What you mention will work fine on lower reaper, but I wouldn't even consider bringing a tank into high reaper without 400+ PRR. It all depends on what you're building to accomplish, but tanks are all but worthless on everything but high reaper raids/questing so it doesn't make sense to make one that isn't focused that direction.

[Yokido]

@OP & Responses

My intent was to shed some light on things used for damage mitigation that aren't commonly used or appreciated. Understand that, I wasn't undercutting the difficulty/necessity of surviving in end-game content as a tank, I was merely adding suggestions to those who already tank or were thinking of it.

@Lyrecono

You're correct, these procs alone do fall short. I'm speaking in terms of adding them to a build to increase survivability, not using them alone.

Afaik and have seen, temp hp is treated the same as regular hp for purposes of PRR/DR.

@TitusOvid

Correct, the procs don't cover surviving end-game content on their own. They're merely additive to other builds focused on ac/ghostly/dodge/PRR & DR/high hp/regeneration/displacement/concealment.

I do sincerely believe many players have gone too far into the "Get the numbers higher" line of thinking that they forget to think outside of the box. PRR & MRR have diminishing returns for a reason.

@kalin741

A "tank" can mean any character built to survive well in general, so I'd argue more tankiness for all characters regardless of whether they run end-game content on the highest difficulty. My Bard/Cler is built for survivability, and with the gear-set & minimal PLs I have, I've been rather successful. Although I don't personally run high-end Reaper content, as I don't see it as a necessity.

[Arkat]

. . . you done messed up.


20 Paladin tank? Nope.
20 Fighter tank? Are you kidding?

Absolutely.

Pure Pallies and pure Fighters should DEFINITELY be able to tank as well, if not better than, any other tank build.

[kain741]

@kalin741

A "tank" can mean any character built to survive well in general, so I'd argue more tankiness for all characters regardless of whether they run end-game content on the highest difficulty. My Bard/Cler is built for survivability, and with the gear-set & minimal PLs I have, I've been rather successful. Although I don't personally run high-end Reaper content, as I don't see it as a necessity.

No, I don't think a tank is any character. A tank is the role in the party that is designed to hold aggro so that less sturdy toons don't die. Now you can you say you're going to make other toons more "tanky" but that is an adjective and not a role.
A thought as well...if you don't run high reaper content, especially on a tank...then maybe you should qualify your contents as guesswork when you initially post. It sounds like your suggestion is to make non tank roles more durable which is not inline with what the OP was talking about.

[Hobgoblin]

[QUOTE=kain741;6222860if you don't run high reaper content, especially on a tank...then maybe you should qualify your contents as guesswork when you initially post. [/QUOTE]

just touching base on this part - i dont run a lot of high reaper stuff.

for ranged/caster what are requirements?

for melee dps non tank same?

and for tanks its been touched on but what do u think of tanks needing? not build but prr/dodge/etc?

[kain741]

just touching base on this part - i dont run a lot of high reaper stuff.

for ranged/caster what are requirements?

for melee dps non tank same?

and for tanks its been touched on but what do u think of tanks needing? not build but prr/dodge/etc?

That is a very open question to answer. Not all ranged and casters are created equal for the raid at hand. Are you running with a tank or not? How hard are you trying to do? etc?

Ranged got screwed in the xpac because they were the only role that didn't have a set bonus that didn't scale above light armor. They tend to be the squishiest as you tend to see around 150 PRR / 100 MRR and approx 1500 HP.

Casters vary greatly just as melee does depending on how much DPS/DCs you want at the loss of survivability. Oddly enough as you scale up to the high skulls you actually see a drop in survivability as toons focus more on their role. You will see well build locks with 175+ mrr/prr and 2200+ HP with with cloth casters lower across the board at the benefit of 3-5 DCs.

Melee should be probably in the 225+ PRR and 150ish MRR range with 2k+ HP to be effective in the current end game raiding scene. You will often though see some dip on these numbers to get more DPS but sometimes to their detriment.

The tank needs are ranged greatly by the raid. Each has its own needs but for a general tank focused on end game reaper content I would say 400+ PRR, 250+ MRR (i'd suggest this be a bit higher though) and 5500+ HP. Dodge depends greatly by the raid as well since LoD bypasses dodge and THTH heavy requires the new tower shield that heavily limits dodge cap. With a large shield you should target 18+ dodge and with the tower shield that will be closer to 5%.
-

[Hobgoblin]

That is a very open question to answer. Not all ranged and casters are created equal for the raid at hand. Are you running with a tank or not? How hard are you trying to do? etc?

Ranged got screwed in the xpac because they were the only role that didn't have a set bonus that didn't scale above light armor. They tend to be the squishiest as you tend to see around 150 PRR / 100 MRR and approx 1500 HP.

Casters vary greatly just as melee does depending on how much DPS/DCs you want at the loss of survivability. Oddly enough as you scale up to the high skulls you actually see a drop in survivability as toons focus more on their role. You will see well build locks with 175+ mrr/prr and 2200+ HP with with cloth casters lower across the board at the benefit of 3-5 DCs.

Melee should be probably in the 225+ PRR and 150ish MRR range with 2k+ HP to be effective in the current end game raiding scene. You will often though see some dip on these numbers to get more DPS but sometimes to their detriment.

The tank needs are ranged greatly by the raid. Each has its own needs but for a general tank focused on end game reaper content I would say 400+ PRR, 250+ MRR (i'd suggest this be a bit higher though) and 5500+ HP. Dodge depends greatly by the raid as well since LoD bypasses dodge and THTH heavy requires the new tower shield that heavily limits dodge cap. With a large shield you should target 18+ dodge and with the tower shield that will be closer to 5%.
-

ok thank you for this.

I am sorry to kinda derail thread, but those were general questions with a general answer.

now to narrow it down to me

I have a monk that has no rp. for a monk what goals should i go for higher reaper? or is it not valid and stick with r1 till i get more?

I have a wizard, dc focused. needs more gear but sitting at around 115 enchant/necro dc. lots or rp on them. very squishy even in r1 right now.

finally i have (or will have) a tempest ranger that I want to contribute in high reaper as a goal. what numbers should i be looking at?

[droid327]

Counterpoint...

No class is going to be specialized entirely for a single role, a single playstyle, as a pure class. That would pigeonhole the class too much. Every class is going to have at least two if not three distinct playstyles/approaches/builds in its design. Maybe its a bit paradoxical, but that means pure classes tend to play like hybrids - even if they have a unified playstyle, they have two different "toolkits" that work together, synergistically but distinctly.

By multiclassing, you can take two classes that both share a single role, and then hyper-specialize for that role by combining them both. So multiclass builds are always going to be the specialists - and tanks are hyper-specialized for tanking. You cant spend 80 AP on tanking as a pure class, but you can as a multiclass.

So I kinda reject your premise that pure classes should be able to tank as well as multiclasses. If, e.g., Bear Druids could put 100% of their opportunity-cost choices towards tanking, then there would be little room left in Druid for DPS wolves and casters. If you try to overload the capstones to reward staying pure, then you're creating OP classes since they can get full tankability PLUS have extra to spend elsewhere that multiclass tanks wont have. The idea sounds good in principle, but there just wouldnt be a way to implement it with the current game architecture.

[PsychoBlonde]

ok thank you for this.

I am sorry to kinda derail thread, but those were general questions with a general answer.

now to narrow it down to me

I have a monk that has no rp. for a monk what goals should i go for higher reaper? or is it not valid and stick with r1 till i get more?

I have a wizard, dc focused. needs more gear but sitting at around 115 enchant/necro dc. lots or rp on them. very squishy even in r1 right now.

finally i have (or will have) a tempest ranger that I want to contribute in high reaper as a goal. what numbers should i be looking at?

Yeah that's not really in the scope of this thread. If you want to ask what specific defense threshholds you should aim for on certain builds, take it to the class builds forums.

[PsychoBlonde]

Counterpoint...

No class is going to be specialized entirely for a single role, a single playstyle, as a pure class. That would pigeonhole the class too much. Every class is going to have at least two if not three distinct playstyles/approaches/builds in its design. Maybe its a bit paradoxical, but that means pure classes tend to play like hybrids - even if they have a unified playstyle, they have two different "toolkits" that work together, synergistically but distinctly.

By multiclassing, you can take two classes that both share a single role, and then hyper-specialize for that role by combining them both. So multiclass builds are always going to be the specialists - and tanks are hyper-specialized for tanking. You cant spend 80 AP on tanking as a pure class, but you can as a multiclass.

So I kinda reject your premise that pure classes should be able to tank as well as multiclasses. If, e.g., Bear Druids could put 100% of their opportunity-cost choices towards tanking, then there would be little room left in Druid for DPS wolves and casters. If you try to overload the capstones to reward staying pure, then you're creating OP classes since they can get full tankability PLUS have extra to spend elsewhere that multiclass tanks wont have. The idea sounds good in principle, but there just wouldnt be a way to implement it with the current game architecture.

For starters, they could make a universal tank-oriented tree and fix the epic defensive fighting stacking issue. That way, anyone who wants to go full tank can use their class tank tree and the universal tank tree without having to deep splash ARTIFICER.

I'm not saying that pure builds should be the best builds. I'm saying it's ridiculous when the ONLY viable tank build is a hybrid with an ARCANE CASTING CLASS, and all these other classes that actually HAVE tank trees are actually garbage for tanking. As it stands now, there is no point in even TRYING to run a tank build on half of those classes, it's melee dps or nothing. So why even have the tank tree? That means they have an entire wasted tree--or TWO of them, on fighter and paladin, since Vanguard is a quasi-tank tree and also garbage.

[Hobgoblin]

Yeah that's not really in the scope of this thread. If you want to ask what specific defense threshholds you should aim for on certain builds, take it to the class builds forums.

yes carry on. sorry was responding to a derail and wound up derailing further.


sometimes im like "o shiny!" and charge off

[blerkington]

This is an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it PB and to those others who contributed.

EDF is not working well at all. Now that the community had time to evaluate it in game a discussion of how it might be changed to work better is due, and that includes whether or not it should also be available to tank builds.

The fact that artificers are top of the pile is particularly ludicrous and this sort of thing just stokes community belief that developers play favourites or are out of touch when it comes to balancing classes. At best artificer tank builds should be competitive with others, not far in front.

Thanks.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I'm curious now, but I don't know much about builds at all ... Why Artificer ?

[apocaladle]

. . . you done messed up.

Druid bear tank? Nyet.
20 Paladin tank? Nope.
20 Fighter tank? Are you kidding?
20 Monk tank? Haha no.
20 Barbarian tank? No no no. Wait . . . also no.
Fighter/paladin/artificer tank? Yep, that's the one. Or maybe Fighter/artificer/wizard.

Why did this happen?

1. you have to stack multiple tank trees together to be able to tank because you need 5000+ hp, 300+ PRR, 200+ MRR to be able to survive the damage. And you still can't actually tank anything you can't intimidate.
2. the devs completely invalidated the hp boosts from *all* tank trees except artificer with Epic Defensive Fighting for *no reason whatsoever*.

Maybe you already counted on this but:
4% hp dwarf
10% hp aasimar
10% positive energy infusion
Xx% hp lgs sets

Also you can get loads of base hp from base cleric/fvs and barbarian.

[apocaladle]

I'm curious now, but I don't know much about builds at all ... Why Artificer ?

T5 renegade gives 20% hp that stacks with everything.

Current "tank" stance hp does not stack with the free 25% you get at lvl 21.

So for hp
25% epic defensive fighting (20-25% from tank trees)
20% racial from arti
20% insight unyielding
10% from aasimar
10% positive energy infusion
Xx% lgs set

[lyrecono]

Counterpoint...

No class is going to be specialized entirely for a single role, a single playstyle, as a pure class. That would pigeonhole the class too much. Every class is going to have at least two if not three distinct playstyles/approaches/builds in its design. Maybe its a bit paradoxical, but that means pure classes tend to play like hybrids - even if they have a unified playstyle, they have two different "toolkits" that work together, synergistically but distinctly.
.

That only works up to a point, thanks to design issues barb will never become a decent spellcaster without multiclassing, a pure wizard can become a decent melee (though in high reaper every non tank melee is reduced to the role of glass jawed backstabber, kinda like a pure melee rogue, this to a degree though).

This is an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it PB and to those others who contributed.

EDF is not working well at all. Now that the community had time to evaluate it in game a discussion of how it might be changed to work better is due, and that includes whether or not it should also be available to tank builds.

The fact that artificers are top of the pile is particularly ludicrous and this sort of thing just stokes community belief that developers play favourites or are out of touch when it comes to balancing classes. At best artificer tank builds should be competitive with others, not far in front.

Thanks.

People have been claiming that for years and they were on the point with arties

I'm curious now, but I don't know much about builds at all ... Why Artificer ?

Due to one of the enh trees giving out tanking stats and a 20% hp thats stacks with everything, wich is better then the 20%hp a paladin or fighter tank could get because theirs doesn't stack with epic defencive fighting(edf).