When the only real tank build is a weird multiclass...

[PsychoBlonde]

. . . you done messed up.

Druid bear tank? Nyet.
20 Paladin tank? Nope.
20 Fighter tank? Are you kidding?
20 Monk tank? Haha no.
20 Barbarian tank? No no no. Wait . . . also no.
Fighter/paladin/artificer tank? Yep, that's the one. Or maybe Fighter/artificer/wizard.

Why did this happen?

1. you have to stack multiple tank trees together to be able to tank because you need 5000+ hp, 300+ PRR, 200+ MRR to be able to survive the damage. And you still can't actually tank anything you can't intimidate.
2. the devs completely invalidated the hp boosts from *all* tank trees except artificer with Epic Defensive Fighting for *no reason whatsoever*.

[Yokido]

Why is 300 PRR necessary? There are ways of mitigating damage that aren't related to PRR... Such as regeneration/heal amp/temp hp (both reactive procs, like Angelic grace or improved demonic shield & proactive, like from the GS weapon proc that gives a temp 1k hp about every minute).

All in all if you combine all of the proc effects you can get some pretty good defensive capabilities when combined with displacement, AC, ghostly, dodge, and maybe even concealment.

Note that since IDR (Invisible DR) isn't real DR, it is calculated AFTER your PRR/DR reductions are applied, making them more effective.

Temp hp Procs:
Improved Demonic Shield: 20% chance for 120 temp hp, this equates to 24~ IDR.
Angelic Grace: 5% chance for 150 temp hp, this equates to 7.5~ IDR.

Heal Procs:
Healer's Bounty: 2% chance for a 90 hp heal, this equates to 1.8~ IDR without any heal amp.
Golem's Heart: 2% chance (can be increased, but has CD) for an average heal of 70hp, this equates to 1.4 IDR without any heal amp.

Damage Avoidance Proc:
Elusive Target: 5% chance to prevent being damaged at all. Note that this works well with Angelic Grace, Golem's Heart, and Demonic shield, since they state they only require being -hit-, not taking damage.

[lyrecono]

Why is 300 PRR necessary? There are ways of mitigating damage that aren't related to PRR... Such as regeneration/heal amp/temp hp (both reactive procs, like Angelic grace or improved demonic shield & proactive, like from the GS weapon proc that gives a temp 1k hp about every minute).

All in all if you combine all of the proc effects you can get some pretty good defensive capabilities when combined with displacement, AC, ghostly, dodge, and maybe even concealment.

Note that since IDR (Invisible DR) isn't real DR, it is calculated AFTER your PRR/DR reductions are applied, making them more effective.

Temp hp Procs:
Improved Demonic Shield: 20% chance for 120 temp hp, this equates to 24~ IDR.
Angelic Grace: 5% chance for 150 temp hp, this equates to 7.5~ IDR.

Heal Procs:
Healer's Bounty: 2% chance for a 90 hp heal, this equates to 1.8~ IDR without any heal amp.
Golem's Heart: 2% chance (can be increased, but has CD) for an average heal of 70hp, this equates to 1.4 IDR without any heal amp.

Damage Avoidance Proc:
Elusive Target: 5% chance to prevent being damaged at all. Note that this works well with Angelic Grace, Golem's Heart, and Demonic shield, since they state they only require being -hit-, not taking damage.

That's cute and all but on r8+ that equates to jack. Even in a casual r4 killing time, a pure paly, fighter or druid can't tank the dragon. You need a better build that what you suggested.
The greensteel procs (1k hp) is not something you want to give up your sentient weapon or absorbtion item for.

Temp hp is taken away prior to dr from what tanks experience. So kinda use impaired when smacked around for 6-10k

[TitusOvid]

No sry, Yokido. Those doesn't cover it at all. Because procs are not consistent. You need a solid base that is always working. Did you calculate the bad proc chance in your IDR?
EDIT: And I think they are affected by reaper penalty, too.
And depending of what difficulty you want to tank 300 PRR is on the low side. And besides that PRR is not the only problem. High MRR is as important as PRR.

There are a few more builds flying out there that are good tanks. But I agree with OP. It would be nice, if there was at least 1 pure build that could compete without the need of all PLs. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...din-Sharn-Tank

And the restrictions on EDF are stupid. The concept is a total fail. Always was, always will be.

Cheers,
Titus

[kain741]

Why is 300 PRR necessary?

What you mention will work fine on lower reaper, but I wouldn't even consider bringing a tank into high reaper without 400+ PRR. It all depends on what you're building to accomplish, but tanks are all but worthless on everything but high reaper raids/questing so it doesn't make sense to make one that isn't focused that direction.

[Yokido]

@OP & Responses

My intent was to shed some light on things used for damage mitigation that aren't commonly used or appreciated. Understand that, I wasn't undercutting the difficulty/necessity of surviving in end-game content as a tank, I was merely adding suggestions to those who already tank or were thinking of it.

@Lyrecono

You're correct, these procs alone do fall short. I'm speaking in terms of adding them to a build to increase survivability, not using them alone.

Afaik and have seen, temp hp is treated the same as regular hp for purposes of PRR/DR.

@TitusOvid

Correct, the procs don't cover surviving end-game content on their own. They're merely additive to other builds focused on ac/ghostly/dodge/PRR & DR/high hp/regeneration/displacement/concealment.

I do sincerely believe many players have gone too far into the "Get the numbers higher" line of thinking that they forget to think outside of the box. PRR & MRR have diminishing returns for a reason.

@kalin741

A "tank" can mean any character built to survive well in general, so I'd argue more tankiness for all characters regardless of whether they run end-game content on the highest difficulty. My Bard/Cler is built for survivability, and with the gear-set & minimal PLs I have, I've been rather successful. Although I don't personally run high-end Reaper content, as I don't see it as a necessity.

[kain741]

@kalin741

A "tank" can mean any character built to survive well in general, so I'd argue more tankiness for all characters regardless of whether they run end-game content on the highest difficulty. My Bard/Cler is built for survivability, and with the gear-set & minimal PLs I have, I've been rather successful. Although I don't personally run high-end Reaper content, as I don't see it as a necessity.

No, I don't think a tank is any character. A tank is the role in the party that is designed to hold aggro so that less sturdy toons don't die. Now you can you say you're going to make other toons more "tanky" but that is an adjective and not a role.
A thought as well...if you don't run high reaper content, especially on a tank...then maybe you should qualify your contents as guesswork when you initially post. It sounds like your suggestion is to make non tank roles more durable which is not inline with what the OP was talking about.

[Hobgoblin]

[QUOTE=kain741;6222860if you don't run high reaper content, especially on a tank...then maybe you should qualify your contents as guesswork when you initially post. [/QUOTE]

just touching base on this part - i dont run a lot of high reaper stuff.

for ranged/caster what are requirements?

for melee dps non tank same?

and for tanks its been touched on but what do u think of tanks needing? not build but prr/dodge/etc?

[Arkat]

. . . you done messed up.


20 Paladin tank? Nope.
20 Fighter tank? Are you kidding?

Absolutely.

Pure Pallies and pure Fighters should DEFINITELY be able to tank as well, if not better than, any other tank build.

[apocaladle]

. . . you done messed up.

Druid bear tank? Nyet.
20 Paladin tank? Nope.
20 Fighter tank? Are you kidding?
20 Monk tank? Haha no.
20 Barbarian tank? No no no. Wait . . . also no.
Fighter/paladin/artificer tank? Yep, that's the one. Or maybe Fighter/artificer/wizard.

Why did this happen?

1. you have to stack multiple tank trees together to be able to tank because you need 5000+ hp, 300+ PRR, 200+ MRR to be able to survive the damage. And you still can't actually tank anything you can't intimidate.
2. the devs completely invalidated the hp boosts from *all* tank trees except artificer with Epic Defensive Fighting for *no reason whatsoever*.

Maybe you already counted on this but:
4% hp dwarf
10% hp aasimar
10% positive energy infusion
Xx% hp lgs sets

Also you can get loads of base hp from base cleric/fvs and barbarian.

[Rull]

. . . you done messed up.

Druid bear tank? Nyet.
20 Paladin tank? Nope.
20 Fighter tank? Are you kidding?
20 Monk tank? Haha no.
20 Barbarian tank? No no no. Wait . . . also no.
Fighter/paladin/artificer tank? Yep, that's the one. Or maybe Fighter/artificer/wizard.

Why did this happen?

1. you have to stack multiple tank trees together to be able to tank because you need 5000+ hp, 300+ PRR, 200+ MRR to be able to survive the damage. And you still can't actually tank anything you can't intimidate.
2. the devs completely invalidated the hp boosts from *all* tank trees except artificer with Epic Defensive Fighting for *no reason whatsoever*.

I find it only logical that very specialized builds are weird multiclasses.

For instance fighter has many facets, some defensive, some offensive. For a well-rounded character, take the offense from fighter and the defense from fighter. But for an all-out defensive character, take the defense from fighter and the defence from paladin and the defense from some other class.

If you want better pure class tanks, the best way would be to introduce a defensively-focused classless enhancement tree.

[jskinner937]

I find it only logical that very specialized builds are weird multiclasses.

For instance fighter has many facets, some defensive, some offensive. For a well-rounded character, take the offense from fighter and the defense from fighter. But for an all-out defensive character, take the defense from fighter and the defence from paladin and the defense from some other class.

If you want better pure class tanks, the best way would be to introduce a defensively-focused classless enhancement tree.

It makes no sense in lore or in terms of DDO in game interpretation of the table top.

Since KT came out, if you want to play Reaper Raids you need a particular build to tank effectively. It’s as though the raid was designed around a particular type of tank. This has pigeon-holed a tank builder into a very specific build type. It has made a mundane job even more mundane because now you have no room for flavor or preference. It’s beyond build optimization at this point, it’s mandatory.

No other role has been affected by this since KT. Sure you need to fill certain roles (ranged, heals, trapper, DPS, cc, instakills) but each allows for certain variations. I am all for specialized roles and in mid high skill end game having that become more important, however this goes beyond that logic. I would be like designing a raid that only hurler instakillers were effective, or only a gnome trapper can do the trap boxes, only wolf maul DPS and only cleric healing aura can party heal.

Yes we need a universal defensive tree.

[Requiro]

(...)
2. the devs completely invalidated the hp boosts from *all* tank trees except artificer with Epic Defensive Fighting for *no reason whatsoever*.

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

Where is petition for this?

[lyrecono]

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

Where is petition for this?

Yeah, this makes sence
I would sign that petition.

Then all they need to do is fix child of the mountain from 4% hp to 10 % hp (racial bonus) and add con to hit to throw your weight around.
Dwarf would still lag behind assimar, lacking all the stance perks and lay on hands but i think thats fair, assimar is a paid race, where someone picked the best bits of paladin and put them in a racial tree.

[IBCrabin]

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

Where is petition for this?

Change LGS set bonus to artifact bonus and open up to ideas of newer sets with artifact hp% bonus.

[Aelonwy]

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

Brilliant! And far more logical consistency than current. Where do I sign?

Then all they need to do is fix child of the mountain from 4% hp to 10 % hp (racial bonus) and add con to hit to throw your weight around.
Dwarf would still lag behind assimar, lacking all the stance perks and lay on hands but i think thats fair, assimar is a paid race, where someone picked the best bits of paladin and put them in a racial tree.

Yep. This would help dwarf, I almost never see dwarves anymore as PCs. I also wish there were a way to have tactics off con, as it is - without significant investment in strength even if you're a con based dwarf its very difficult to land any tactics but Stunning Shield/Shield Rush.

Change LGS set bonus to artifact bonus and open up to ideas of newer sets with artifact hp% bonus.

Agreed. Is it just me or did it seem to others like this raid reward in particular^ seemed to warp the game? Or is it just that it always seems like new content after a raid, is balanced around having goodies from the previous raid? Monster HP, damage and saves after a raid often seem to escalate either invalidating previous raid loot or making it such that you've only achieved status quo again. With something like this huge bump in player HP, while cool, it created a tremendous disparity and for a time at least difficulty creating compelling new loot. Converting it to an artifact bonus that competes with newer sets with artifact HP is a reasonable idea, IMHO.

[Chai]

EVERY...
SINGLE...
THING...
...before the multi-class build, got nerfed at some point after its revamp.

[janave]

Brilliant! And far more logical consistency than current. Where do I sign?




Yep. This would help dwarf, I almost never see dwarves anymore as PCs. I also wish there were a way to have tactics off con, as it is - without significant investment in strength even if you're a con based dwarf its very difficult to land any tactics but Stunning Shield/Shield Rush.




Agreed. Is it just me or did it seem to others like this raid reward in particular^ seemed to warp the game? Or is it just that it always seems like new content after a raid, is balanced around having goodies from the previous raid? Monster HP, damage and saves after a raid often seem to escalate either invalidating previous raid loot or making it such that you've only achieved status quo again. With something like this huge bump in player HP, while cool, it created a tremendous disparity and for a time at least difficulty creating compelling new loot. Converting it to an artifact bonus that competes with newer sets with artifact HP is a reasonable idea, IMHO.

[IBCrabin]

If they want to encourage diversity they have to change how class enhancement tree works with other class enhancement tree - changes to each class tree to encourage pure builds and other type of splash will also boost the current fotm build.

suggestion is to get rid of the ability to stack enhancement from different tree that has same affect. i.e. 50% armor or shield AC, max dex bonus, etc.

Increase the tier 5 from 50% to 100% AC boost to offset the current stacking bonus from multiple class tree.


Adjust how different class play as a tank - tweak the level 18 and lvl 20 core benefit.

Since Fighter can't self heal like a paladin, have some passive AC with the 18 and 20 core
Give paladin a heal type spell at lvl 18 or 20 core and focus more on prr/mrr.
Druid and Arti can use a bit more of each to fit somewhere between a fighter's durability and the paladin's self healing.

[PurpleTimb]

Easy solution? Change type of HP bonuses:

- Artificer made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
- EDF made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
- Unyielding made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
- Assimar made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

Solved everything, everyone happy, no one are unhappy, no more power added.

I'm all for this. How do I make this happen?