Up Coming Epic Destiny Changes

[Don1966]

since there wasn't a general thread for changes to all epic destinies i'm going to post this here. since the stated goal is to make it so any destiny work somewhat for any build i propose that the ability stats we are able to choose from be not limited to two or three but from all six abilities.

[cru121]

this would be great but apparently it is a lot of work

[Wh070aa]

I mean they are gonna fix Draconic descriptions for stuff that did not work as described, so thats nice. Rest is absolutely useless tho, or just removing mechanics for sake of changing things.

Like I did not mind all the loops you had to do for the destenies. Problem was bugs, and how absolutely useless they were, and that is not changing, save for some minor number changes that are so far behind power creep, it does not matter.

[Steelstar]

since the stated goal is to make it so any destiny work somewhat for any build

That is not the stated goal.

This is the stated goal:

We had a few primary goals in the Epic Destiny pass, compounded by a very slim time-frame of 3 weeks for principal changes.

• First and foremost, try to put each Destiny in a place where it's worth using for at least some builds.
• Fix bugs and remove things that hinder fun or usability
  
  • You'll notice that every Epic Moment that required you to do weird things to charge it up no longer requires that.
  
  
• Improve the ability for people to play in Destinies that match their Archetype (ranged characters in Shiradi, etc) without significantly hindering the current ability for people to play in Destinies that don't (casters in Shiradi, etc)

The goal is not to make it so "any build can work in any destiny", it's to make it that "every destiny has builds that can work well within it". We are not trying to make every build viable in every Destiny.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

That is not the stated goal.

This is the stated goal:


The goal is not to make it so "any build can work in any destiny", it's to make it that "every destiny has builds that can work well within it". We are not trying to make every build viable in every Destiny.

So what tree will be the home tree for Melee artificers then?

Divine crusader holds the most potential with it's full BAB, the potential for allowing artificers to step up from revering Onatar to worshiping him, the possibility of granting artificers Warrhammers, Bastard swords, and dwarven war axes as favored weapon options (The base being warhammer of course), and more.

"The Sovereign of Forge and Flame Onatar is revered by smiths, craftsmen, artificers, dwarves and even a small portion of warforged." Click for source!

[Steelstar]

So what tree will be the home tree for Melee artificers then?

Whatever you feel yours fits best in.

[nokowi]

That is not the stated goal.

This is the stated goal:


The goal is not to make it so "any build can work in any destiny", it's to make it that "every destiny has builds that can work well within it". We are not trying to make every build viable in every Destiny.

That certainly allows leaves you wiggle room to not to support builds.

At least having one or two builds (of thousands of builds) use each destiny is a pretty low goal, especially as you make them more vanilla and generic.

Do you talk about or discuss unique play styles in your meetings or is this not even a concept at SSG?

Taking away play styles (charging and using EiN) to do so reduces play variety, no matter how many combinations of the same thing you deliver.

[Steelstar]

That certainly allows leaves you wiggle room to not to support builds.

At least having one or two builds (of thousands of builds) use each destiny is a pretty low goal, especially as you make them more vanilla and generic.

Do you talk about or discuss unique play styles in your meetings or is this not even a concept at SSG?

Taking away play styles (charging and using EiN) to do so reduces play variety, no matter how many combinations of the same thing you deliver.

We talk unique playstyles literally constantly. This ED pass expands the number of possible viable archetypes considerably; I'm looking forward to the point where many of the newly-viable builds get noticed.

[lain5246]

We talk unique playstyles literally constantly. This ED pass expands the number of possible viable archetypes considerably; I'm looking forward to the point where many of the newly-viable builds get noticed.

you mean like this:
https://www.facebook.com/ahorsleyjr/...5045020101038/


would be better if I had a viable way to get heavy armor proficiency other than muti classing but meh.

[Don1966]

odd, i view this statement

• Improve the ability for people to play in Destinies that match their Archetype (ranged characters in Shiradi, etc) without significantly hindering the current ability for people to play in Destinies that don't (casters in Shiradi, etc)

and this statement

since the stated goal is to make it so any destiny work somewhat for any build.

as meaning essentially the same thing. improving the abilities in destinies without significantly hindering the ability of characters that don't match that destiny means that destiny somewhat works, it doesn't mean it is great or even good, it just means it doesn't totally suck which is the way some destinies are now on live for some builds.
for instance, a dc casting wizard making his way thru Legendary Dreadnought has very little he can spend points on that helps out his build. that destiny at least he can pick up con but how terrible would it be if he could choose int and at least bump up his main stat? consider the barbarian going through magister, wouldn't it be nice if that character could choose con instead of int or cha? another point, consider the wizard in magister, he's picked up 5 points to his int already in this destiny, picking up the 6th int will make his int an odd number which is just a waste of destiny points. but, his con is odd, if we could pick from all stats instead of the stat associated with that destiny he could make his con even and pick up 30 hit points. being able to flesh out a character some in an off destiny at least makes going through that destiny a lot less like work and a bit more like fun and in the end, that's why i play this game and try to support it is so i can have a bit of fun.
which also lines up with

• Fix bugs and remove things that hinder fun or usability

[Memnir]

Whatever you feel yours fits best in.

[nokowi]

We talk unique playstyles literally constantly. This ED pass expands the number of possible viable archetypes considerably; I'm looking forward to the point where many of the newly-viable builds get noticed.

Please PM me when you decide to reintroduce tactical movement.

When people stop playing unique play styles as you continually design the game around sharing everything, you are reducing diversity and not increasing it. I think you need a discussion about diversity as more than sharing everything with every build, and at the expense of things that are truly unique. EiN is going away because you think sharing things is good, even at the expense of that unique play style.


I can't decide if you think epic moments should be truly epic, or worthless. You have no consistency in your design, and your solution to unbalance is to share everything with everyone instead of creating balanced and unique systems.

The most important way to preserve diversity is to have some gating to abilities, so that players have to choose between competing and DIFFERENT options. This means minimum levels to get an enhancement, and swapping tiers when an ability is deemed too powerful. Giving everyone access to everything creates very few good designs and removes those independent builds - it's been your entire philosophy at SSG and I hope some day you learn about what creates diverse play styles.

I can't play tactical movement because you don't understand diversity of play, or why having someone move around the screen tactically is unique or interesting. Slow movement with melee, moving in and out of stealth, these things required decisions before things happened. This required much more decision making than what is available now - move in second with no chance of detection and attack a non moving mob, or die. Free instant stun (dire charge) and assassinate without stealth so your tactical abilities and decision making don't matter. I never stealthed past content, so I wonder my my build no longer exists, and the only conclusion I can come to is you don't understand diversity of play and competing decision making while playing.

Taking something complex and interesting and grinding it to dust is not diversity, no matter how many 2% dodge vs 10 PRR choices people are making.

Thank your for your time and response, and I hope you will consider what diversity of play truly means.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Whatever you feel yours fits best in.

Well, that depends on a few factors

1-Are there going to be new ways of getting full BAB?

2-Will we be able to worship Onatar and receive favored weapons benefits in the divine crusader tree?

3-How far exactly are you nerfing Legendary Dreadnaught?

4-Is magister going to be made viable for Melee Artificer and Eldritch Knight builds?

5-Will any of the trees have something to extend Tensor's transformation beyond that measly extend metamagic's capabilities for such?

[Potatofasf]

We talk unique playstyles literally constantly. This ED pass expands the number of possible viable archetypes considerably; I'm looking forward to the point where many of the newly-viable builds get noticed.

Since we are having changes to EDs "fit" to certain builds in certain ED and playstyle... when we will some love for Longbows users?
Why Longbows are so slow, weak and far behind the other ranged weapons?
Why can Longbows have 19-20 threat critical like Crossbows?

[Yokido]

In response to the folks who attack devs with a wall-of-text of vehement disagreement over the game's "status quo" being shifted or because something they wanted addressed wasn't addressed, I have one thing to say to you, DDO is a game. Games are designed to help people have fun. Note how I didn't say games are there for -you- to have fun, or for -me- to have fun, but for -people- to have fun. Sometimes things just wont work out the way you intended, and that's not just games, that's life.

I've come to terms with this a long time ago in DDO, and I hope others can as-well.

PS: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

[AlmGhandi]

Whatever you feel yours fits best in.

My melee artificers (my HUGGERNAUT... based on the juggernaut of old) worked wonders with fury of the wild...)

Now that I can just repeat halfling lives to get all the racial past lives.... I know what I will be doing in future.

TLDR let me throw money at you.

[AlmGhandi]

We talk unique playstyles literally constantly. This ED pass expands the number of possible viable archetypes considerably; I'm looking forward to the point where many of the newly-viable builds get noticed.

My Guildy went from lvl 1 to cap with mostly korthos gear (just changing out weapons).
That was viable.

Edit: That was when we more or less stopped. We keep trying to come back but... korthos gear for the win!

[nokowi]

[color=forestgreen]In response to the folks who attack devs with a wall-of-text of vehement disagreement over the game's "status quo" being shifted or because something they wanted addressed wasn't addressed, I have one thing to say to you, DDO is a game. Games are designed to help people have fun. Note how I didn't say games are there for -you- to have fun, or for -me- to have fun, but for -people- to have fun. Sometimes things just wont work out the way you intended, and that's not just games, that's life.

I've come to terms with this a long time ago in DDO, and I hope others can as-well.

I've made my arguments in general terms. Competing play choices are critical to challenge. Diversity is having unique builds that play differently, not the number of options that play similarly, etc. I've argued that SSG's systems need to scale, and 2.5 years ago I (and others) called out charm as poorly designed for not scaling properly. It's no surprise to be to see HoX having to be shut down, or charm causing problems as they try to add additional challenge.

It has taken SSG 2 years to figure out charm was poorly designed, and they have not yet figured out diversity, as they continue to kill off the most unique play styles.

So while my play style (tactical movement) has been killed off, I have still given SSG the very best advice.

Most of the advice people have given has proven to be wrong (they will surely fix stealth if we just give them time, they will surely fix assassinate if we just let them know, etc). I have a history of being very perceptive and accurate in my predictions, and I have been incredibly consistent in applying my advice across all builds.

What they do for my build doesn't really matter as the advice I have given is universal across all builds.

Maybe it's time for SSG to listen to good advice.

[Yokido]

@Nokowi

Monday night football is easy.

Being part of the NFL is hard.

[nokowi]

@Nokowi

Monday night football is easy.

Being part of the NFL is hard.

Agreed. Hopefully, SSG will get past Monday night football and use some real design parameters some day.

If they are ever going to get to the NFL, they will need to learn more about design.


I'm still curious if they think an epic moment should be epic or not - because there is little rhyme or reason to much of their design.