Monks, time to speak up and speak out!

[Tilomere]

You're not understanding the crux of the issue here. It isn't about performance, but server load

The real crux of the issue is that it would have been nerfed anyways since all the recent injections into monk of sentience, Falconry allowing more monk instant kills already due to QP DC, and ED passes including the prior one adding 10 MP per GMOF core.

Everything is Nothing moves to a 3 minute cooldown, no longer requires charging.
Everything is Nothing now has a smaller detect (double the size of Drifting Lotus, but still smaller than its existing version), and hits a maximum of 4 enemies. This is for both balance and performance reasons

If you want more monk and GMOF power, you could always ask the devs to nerf dire charge to make balance room for it. It's hard to understand all the complaints when the game is balanced leaving dire charge intact like the player base wanted. You told them how to balance the game leaving it OP, they did exactly what you asked for, and now you complain. If anything, those of us who wanted Dire Charge nerfed and better base class heroic balance as a result should be the ones with the right to complain.

[Xgya]

The real crux of the issue is that it would have been nerfed anyways since all the recent injections into monk of sentience, Falconry allowing more monk instant kills already due to QP DC, and ED passes including the prior one adding 10 MP per GMOF core.

Everything is Nothing moves to a 3 minute cooldown, no longer requires charging.
Everything is Nothing now has a smaller detect (double the size of Drifting Lotus, but still smaller than its existing version), and hits a maximum of 4 enemies. This is for both balance and performance reasons

If you want more monk and GMOF power, you could always ask the devs to nerf dire charge to make balance room for it. It's hard to understand all the complaints when the game is balanced leaving dire charge intact like the player base wanted. You told them how to balance the game leaving it OP, they did exactly what you asked for, and now you complain. If anything, those of us who wanted Dire Charge nerfed and better base class heroic balance as a result should be the ones with the right to complain.

Oh, you're most definitely right. My response had more in line of answering the claims saying that they never saw lag using the ability, so it must not cause extra server load, which is one of the two answers they're handing out as to why this nerf happened. I was mostly addressing the line "those of us that use EIN alot never see performance issues because of it".

We're also pretty much on the same wavelength when talking about nerfs to Dire Charge (and, though you didn't mention it, Mass Frog), but the devs chose to work on EDs first, which meant that the above nerf would happen first.

[Deathbrings]

Yep You're definitely right to ask, they are internally different abilities, good thinking!

Slightly off topic for the thread but relevant to AA being brought up. Ranger AA's "Final Shot" adds 250 damage to the initial hit like arrow of slaying does then applies the stated damage tick. The elven one does a standard basic attack followed by the damage tick. Dunno which is incorrect and I recall sending a report, but can send another report if needed. sorry for derailing. I'll let the thread return to the hate for the new EiN.

[J1NG]

I'd suspect that, like a few other abilities, the MRR bonus will ignore cap - at least hopefully.

All known Live Server bonus for MRR does not raise the MRR Cap, it's a seperate effect that raises the cap. It's a bit like Dodge with the Max Dexterity Bonus cap, only with Dodge, there are some effects that do ignore the Cap temporarily, but these effects have existed since 2012, whilst MRR has never had something doing anything remotely the same (likely because it was never considered necessary or essential).

Meaning, unless explicitly stated otherwise by the Devs (and what some concerned players are trying to get an answer to), it is safe to assume that any MRR increase will NOT breach the cap. ie. This ability does (basically) nothing of value.

What's worse, because the Devs have stated that they want Epic Destiny to be class Agnostic, it means that Cloth/Light Armour users will likely NOT have been considered for a temporary MRR Cap increase, because it would have gone against that design decision. They will likely want MRR increase achieved through other means instead.

J1NG

:: edit ::
And this is precisely why players won't shut up about it until a Dev says they're looking into it. Because past experience and the fact that the Devs aren't aware of everything, and why they ask for feedback or get surprised from things that players can do, suggests that this MRR cap would not have even been considered.

[J1NG]

Oh, you're most definitely right. My response had more in line of answering the claims saying that they never saw lag using the ability, so it must not cause extra server load, which is one of the two answers they're handing out as to why this nerf happened. I was mostly addressing the line "those of us that use EIN alot never see performance issues because of it".

That is because players were responding against Feedback provided by the Devs. The Devs initially didn't say that there was performance issues on the backend, instead it was stated that there was LAG. So players, myself included, refuted this from player experience.

Not picking on Lynnabel and her post, which may not have contained enough recent info either, but Lynnabel made mention that my description of EiN was wrong. Yet, in my theorised model of how it's currently going to end up working, in a large AOE, with only 4 possible recipients of effects, and many more enemies in that AOE, targeting will end up like Implosion, Circle of Death, Wail, etc. Where targets are selected randomly, with no checks for any Immunity of theirs at all, resulting in a wasted target because that's what we see on Live with those spells. So if you have many more targets in the AOE and some have some type of Immunity to EiN that basically allows these Immune enemies to "absorb" a hit that might have hit something else that wasn't targeted, then what I described would actually be correct. And as stated in my post, unless Lynnabel was hinting at new designs being setup (which really should be used for those other spells too), then I would be correct and that the new EiN will be even more ineffective that what the Devs design for EiN would do. But we have no further Feedback on that, so we players can only respond to what we have.

J1NG

[Ew_vastano]

Ok, new EiN: does 100 damage one target with no save. No save so all better now! Still probably better than the broken tree lol.

yep 100 dmg does help loads when the avarage trash mob has 4000 hp
just like void strike no one used it or built dark monks for it and that was when cap was 20 as the dmg it did was total waste

[Ew_vastano]

That is because players were responding against Feedback provided by the Devs. The Devs initially didn't say that there was performance issues on the backend, instead it was stated that there was LAG. So players, myself included, refuted this from player experience.

Not picking on Lynnabel and her post, which may not have contained enough recent info either, but Lynnabel made mention that my description of EiN was wrong. Yet, in my theorised model of how it's currently going to end up working, in a large AOE, with only 4 possible recipients of effects, and many more enemies in that AOE, targeting will end up like Implosion, Circle of Death, Wail, etc. Where targets are selected randomly, with no checks for any Immunity of theirs at all, resulting in a wasted target because that's what we see on Live with those spells. So if you have many more targets in the AOE and some have some type of Immunity to EiN that basically allows these Immune enemies to "absorb" a hit that might have hit something else that wasn't targeted, then what I described would actually be correct. And as stated in my post, unless Lynnabel was hinting at new designs being setup (which really should be used for those other spells too), then I would be correct and that the new EiN will be even more ineffective that what the Devs design for EiN would do. But we have no further Feedback on that, so we players can only respond to what we have.

J1NG

hmm or even worse ein ends up working like implosion that if it decides to target an immune mob it uses all charges trying to kill that one immune mob (red scarecrows in babas hut springs to mind)

[J1NG]

hmm or even worse ein ends up working like implosion that if it decides to target an immune mob it uses all charges trying to kill that one immune mob (red scarecrows in babas hut springs to mind)

Well, Implossion only targets 1 target at a time, so that could end up like that. But EiN in all designs (current Live, and proposed changed version) are instant effects. So it'll be more accurate to use Circle of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Undeath to Death, Mass Frog, spells or effects that have an AOE but a limited number of targets within, to demonstate how players would perceive the new EiN working. Greater Command, Mass Suggestion, Mass Hold Monster for example, would not work, because it's ANY amount within its AOE.

So with those examples, in Live play (and so player expected behaviour for the new EiN), we expect that in a situation with more than 4 enemies in an area, with the more Immune enemies in the AOE than the number you can target, we players would expect that just like the spells listed above, would indiscriminantly target enemies, and still pick out Immune enemies to count in its 4 target limit. Thereby reducing effectiveness as quest (Lots of Red Names) and situation (Lots of Champ Buffs) happens.

Current Live EiN, because there is no hard limit to the number, means we players know we can ignore the Immune enemies because we know the enemies that are not Immune will be affected. This is related to assurance (DC being high enough not an issue because it's not what we are after; it's the 6s stun/freeze) and targetability (don't care because we know it'll hit the targets and do something) which the new version doesn't give us. Since we can't be sure we can hit valid targets, and the DC may be high enough, but this also has drawbacks because being Immune to Erase and making the save means you receive nothing; no erasure or 500 Bane Damage; in the case of something like a Boss).

I am hoping however, that what Lynnabel made mention of in their post, means that the Devs are putting in checks so that the effects will be checking for Immunities first before taking it as a target.

J1NG

[SerPounce]

yep 100 dmg does help loads when the avarage trash mob has 4000 hp
just like void strike no one used it or built dark monks for it and that was when cap was 20 as the dmg it did was total waste

thatsthejoke.jpg

[Uska]

Monk suppose to be the BEST class in D&D, not the WORST class.

Monks weak at level 1 fine, they are noobs anyway, but by level 30 they suppose to be able to laugh at sorc nukers, make faces at tanks, dance in traps. Not die when someone comes along and become a liability. The point of being a grandmaster is they are just about ascended, you need to look at the majority, not the minority super players.

Or just give me this.

Monks were never the best class in d&d nor were they ever intended to be and I have played them since the 70’s

[Kaboom2112]

Meh, nerf monks more. They need it.

[Shall]

I'd suspect that, like a few other abilities, the MRR bonus will ignore cap - at least hopefully.

Well, I would hope so considering there is no mention of removing A Scattering of Petals' ki cost to activate which pretty much means cloth armor and the resting mrr cap is required to use the ability at all. Otherwise the mrr buff would be pointless for anyone using it, monk or not.

Although if I recall correctly, the dodge buff of the current version doesn't ignore the dodge cap either, so who knows.

[Nickodeamous]

Has anybody seen any updates on EiN? It seems the communications have slowed form the devs, but it could be a case of the mondays. Anyway, hoping that the devs are re-evaluating this.

BTW, I wanted to point this out. I just got back to epics on Sunday and ran TTT and was able to use EiN once during the 8 minute run. I killed about 8-9 mobs at the end when you run down the tunnel right before the end fight.
I tried to group up as many as possible and by the time I did, instakillers were spamming anyway and I hit the 8-9 or so.

That being said, IF it is restricted to every 3 minutes for 4 mobs, to me I could have used it twice, BUT, and there is a big BUT...since instakillers essentially killed about 50% of the mobs I was gathering up, I think that using EiN twice would have netted 4-5 kills max.

This is hardly an epic moment worthy of tier 6.

Just more of my 2 cents,
Nico

[Arkat]

Has anybody seen any updates on EiN? It seems the communications have slowed form the devs, but it could be a case of the mondays. Anyway, hoping that the devs are re-evaluating this.

BTW, I wanted to point this out. I just got back to epics on Sunday and ran TTT and was able to use EiN once during the 8 minute run. I killed about 8-9 mobs at the end when you run down the tunnel right before the end fight.
I tried to group up as many as possible and by the time I did, instakillers were spamming anyway and I hit the 8-9 or so.

That being said, IF it is restricted to every 3 minutes for 4 mobs, to me I could have used it twice, BUT, and there is a big BUT...since instakillers essentially killed about 50% of the mobs I was gathering up, I think that using EiN twice would have netted 4-5 kills max.

This is hardly an epic moment worthy of tier 6.

Just more of my 2 cents,
Nico

I suspect we'll find out only after the Lamannia build for Update 43 is released. It appears the Devs are closing ranks on the EiN change, unfortunately.

[Nickodeamous]

I suspect we'll find out only after the Lamannia build for Update 43 is released. It appears the Devs are closing ranks on the EiN change, unfortunately.

That's what it seems like. Hoping that they up it to 6 mobs at least. 4 is just a sad "normal" moment. I was talking to some players this weekend and half of them had no idea. The sad part is that unless you are on the forums, you have no clue as to the proposed changes. I think this should be something that is fairly transparent so more people could see it. I think this is probably done intentionally though.

[Marten]

AKA - "why do you care?" AKA - "why do you even bother?"

I have been asked these and other questions in private recently, even one implying that I just enjoy arguing for argument's sake. I do enjoy a good debate, witty banter, and even the occasional soliloquy. That is not my reason for speaking up here, nor all the time I have spent testing parts of this game, nor engaging the Devs.

I have seen what can happen to a game that makes changes for changes sake and ignores its player base. Star Wars Galaxies. I was very active in that game, so much so that I had one of the better known crafters for my server (IMO the best crafting system in any game I have ever seen), and was an Elder Jedi.

I and a few others spoke up about some announced changes to the game. I am not going to go into those changes or why I was concerned here, but I will quote its Wiki.

Released June 26, 2003, to much critical acclaim, it spawned three expansions through 2005. The game was completely overhauled in the last expansion, which frustrated many longtime subscribers. Star Wars Galaxies continued operation for six more years. The servers shut down on December 15, 2011.

If you are interested in knowing more, I am sure Google can help, the change in 2005 was called the New Game Experience or more simply, NGE. Sadly, we ("a very small, very vocal minority") were basically told to shut up by the head of SOE, no less. So, I dropped it. SWG doesn't exist anymore, in large part because of those changes. Below are actual quotes of said head of SOE.

Pre NGE

Despite some of the rhetoric coming from the existing player base, we've not noticed any rise in people canceling their subscriptions. It's just a very small, very vocal minority.
~ SOE Company President John Smedley

Post NGE and more than 20% subscription loss

You don’t hear me saying “everything is great”. I think it’s fair to say I was surprised how negative the reaction from the existing playerbase was. That tells me we didn’t handle the communication very well. Are there a lot of ****ed off current and ex-players? Yes. Did we deserve that? Yes. We threw the baby out with the bathwater in some cases...
~ SOE Company President John Smedley

I let myself be cowed by the head of the game I loved, and then I got to watch it die. I will not be cowed again, ever. I speak out often in support of this game, but don't confuse that for something it isn't. I will speak up to the "powers that be" when I feel they are about to hurt the game. That too should not be confused for something it isn't.

I do like getting positive clicks to my post, but I do not post seeking them.

I don't like getting a post nuked, but I will not fear it. I will speak the truth to a Dev.

I don't expect a Dev to reply to this, there is nothing to be said by them. To any that do read it however, I would say this: Ignore your player base at your own risk.

[Arkat]

Hubris.

Lots of companies have suffered from it and, as a result, are no longer with us.

Thanks for speaking out, Marten.

[ThreadNecromancer]

• Nice QoL fixes to Inner Focus and Wholeness of Spirit.
• Buffs/Fixes to Ki actives look excellent. Especially the DC bonus and MP scaling. One issue I noticed with Lily Petal and Orchid Blossom is their interaction with Epic Defensive Fighting. Given the nature of this tree, they shouldn't be affected by that range reduction.
• Scattering of Petals now looks... interestingly situational. Could be a great defensive ability, but with how many abilities in this tree look good now, I'm already worried about losing some Wisdom. The MRR cap is ultimately what will prevent this ability from being used, unless it ignored your MRR cap for the duration. A bit like Meld into Darkness does for Dodge cap. Petals is a tier 6 ability, after all.
• Untethering Monk stances from some abilities is fine, making them nice twists for those that don't enjoy the "Transcended Monk" feel of the tree. I'm wondering if they'll somehow still benefit from being in-stance? Or even being centered? Elemental resists is... a bit weak, unless I missed something and they're typed as Insight bonuses.
• I'm sure, without looking through the thread much, that others complained about EiN. (Which I refer to as "My Snap" for those familiar with Infinity War/Endgame) I'll preemptively agree with them on the limit of 4 targets, combined with that 3min cd. At that cooldown I'd hope it'd hit at least six targets, but I suppose I'll have to actually play with the ability in that form to see. Don't you dare touch that animation, it's perfect. *shakes finger*
• Flower's Thorn seems tame, and I have an idea here. What if it were a multiselector that allowed you to choose Light/Dark/Void for its attack type?

Copy/Paste from the Martial Sphere Changes thread, just because I feel the need to reply with my main being a monk in GM and can't think of anything else to say that hasn't already been said. Also wanted to share some ideas in a different place.

Another thought about Orchid Blossom: what if a failed save results in the damaged monster being dazed?

[cyberglammie]

My main is a Paladin . But my favorite toon to play is my monk .

I took a short break of a few months ( I find it healthy after about 6 years of solid playing ) so I can re love the game .

Open the load screen there is an update .. OK will check the forums .. See this thread .. read the nerf to GMOF

about to close the log in screen before I even bother ( I would have bought my usual sub and some points cause of the double points sale)

Oh well

( Im sure I will be back at sometime but it wont be the foreseeable future ..)