Monks, time to speak up and speak out!

[Synthala]

Hey! A small thought about dance of flowers.
What if being centered still gave you 1.5W, but if you were uncentered you would only get 1W. This would allow the monks to still have the upper hand in the tree that was meant for them. It may only be .5W, but it would still make sense to have some sort of bonus for being centered in a monk ED.

Just a thought

[Xgya]

Let's be real, here. The current EDs are broken.

Fatesinger was unsalvageable. I had to remake the tree it was so bad. It's been a few weeks since that work was done and I'm still pulling the dregs of Fatesinger out of unrelated scripting. Half of the passives literally did not work. Almost every single ED ability stops you in place right now. There were so many things in so many trees that just... literally did not work. Did you know that if you log in, right now, on a level 1 character, one of the first things that happens is the combat log prints out "Master's Blitz Ready!" even though Blitz hasn't needed to be "ready" for years? Did you know that Fatesinger has 6 ranks for some abilities for some reason internally? Divine Crusader has an ability that literally does not stack with gear right now. There is a corner of Shadowdancer that I've heard described as the "maze of confusion" and it's a very apt description because it's all a big mess. You guys gave us grief about EiN being performance intensive, but almost half of the old implementations of some of these EDs also literally cause lag just from being in the game, period. The auras in Primal Avatar got stuck on players if you so much as sneezed near them. We were able to improve Draconic's stuff by just fixing the tooltips as some of the worst parts of the tree on paper had never even actually been implemented.

What the EDs needed was not new stuff - they needed help. Some fixes, some decoupling, some cleaning, and a fresh coat of paint. They need their buffs to actually match the icons of the abilities, they needed tooltips that actually described what abilities do. They represent a third of DDO's progression and their imbalance is a huge reason as to why so many players, myself included, find Epic gameplay so stifling. They already have the fun and creativity built in, and honestly, adding more would overload the trees. There are plenty of places to throw special sauce around, and EDs don't need more sauce, they need an actual bowl and some noodles to eat the sauce with.

1. Thanks. Love all the tidbits about how wonky the code is behind the scenes. Gives me hope about the spaghetti *I* write :P

2. Do that again! Read #1 again if you need reasons.

Love ya Lyn.

[J1NG]

Thanks for a look behind the curtain.

Just curious, though. ED's have been broken for a long time, yes? If so, how'd they ever get released in the first place? Why the push to fix them now instead of before? Was it merely a matter of time and resources being available to do so?

If memory serves, a whole bunch of temp Devs were added to the team just before MotU and then released afterwards. Few stuck around afterwards. And the MotU release timeframe meant that they needed Epic Destiny done up there and then as part of the expansion. So they likely didn't care about coding standards that are adhered to, so long as they got their assigned Epic Destiny "working". So the remaining perma Devs likely left it until a better time to "fix".

J1NG

[Lynnabel]

Hey! A small thought about dance of flowers.
What if being centered still gave you 1.5W, but if you were uncentered you would only get 1W. This would allow the monks to still have the upper hand in the tree that was meant for them. It may only be .5W, but it would still make sense to have some sort of bonus for being centered in a monk ED.

Just a thought

Sure, sounds good to me.

[Synthala]

Sure, sounds good to me.

Thanks Lynn!!! To be honest, I wasn’t sure if that was possible within the short time span y’all had. (I know nothing about programming!) XD

[ahpook]

This...

I always say: Feedback that makes sense needs to be considered, even if there's trash all around it.

This is what a number of people I know that cannot communicate positively and politely use to justify their poor communication and attitude.

As to GMoF, I am mostly content with the changes but the EiN changes are underwhelming. I found myself agreeing with posters saying that it should be 6 (or 8) but as I think about it giving Monks a (possibly weaker) Wail just doesn't seem to do it for something call Everything Is Nothing. Boosting it to 8 would be nice but still bland. I would rather see EiN become something quite different rather than a 4 (max) Wail.

Is there something else that can be done to a large number of mobs that is not going to simply be a Wail (All mobs Ac goes to 0, abilities to 0, dmg to 0)? Something worthy of the title. Is it worth pitching ideas or is it going to simply be "don't have time" to any suggestions?

[Cordovan]

This thread will NOT be used to sling insults at each other and the team over the weekend. You have been warned. Additionally, I will make sure our employees follow the rules regarding posting and appropriate content written.

[J1NG]

This is what a number of people I know that cannot communicate positively and politely use to justify their poor communication and attitude.

That may be what you feel and have a few people you know of like that. However, that does not equate the same for everyone and every instance.

For example:

Providing information and appropriate feedback has nothing to do with being polite, or being positive. Or indeed being inpolite, or being negative. Or those of a neutral bent.

If we take information ONLY from positive and polite threads, then exactly as Lynnabel as posted (now removed I believe), it would mean that players would recognise to be positive and polite all the time and get what they want. That's NOT the way to go about getting useful feedback for changes you're proposing. It would be akin to only listening to what you want to see/hear/read, and that is why I have said that to pick only what you want to perceive, is a folly, in that there is no good feedback in threads or posts that do have valid criticism and of a more "negative" bend. There's no "justification" necessary as you have listed to any of it, it simply is good feedback. "Negative", or "Positive" are seen and read differently by the same people on different days, so to concentrate on those aspects is silly.

Sure, some do just attack, but those are clear and obvious, and really do serve no purpose. There is no justification for that, but if you ignore everything else because you don't like what you're reading, then you may as well not have asked for feedback.

We also have it in reverse, where we have Polite and Positive but useless Feedback. Would that help with the Devs in their search for feedback on changes?

Which is why I said it isn't a job for everyone, and if it's too much for you at the time, step back and let another get stuck in to find that valuable feedback.

As to GMoF, I am mostly content with the changes but the EiN changes are underwhelming. I found myself agreeing with posters saying that it should be 6 (or 8) but as I think about it giving Monks a (possibly weaker) Wail just doesn't seem to do it for something call Everything Is Nothing. Boosting it to 8 would be nice but still bland. I would rather see EiN become something quite different rather than a 4 (max) Wail.

Is there something else that can be done to a large number of mobs that is not going to simply be a Wail (All mobs Ac goes to 0, abilities to 0, dmg to 0)? Something worthy of the title. Is it worth pitching ideas or is it going to simply be "don't have time" to any suggestions?

It'll be interesting if we get a response to this, you're not the first to ask this question, but no one has been given a response to it. ie. We, the players are not receiving any feedback to our feedback to the Devs.

J1NG

[Lynnabel]

Is it worth pitching ideas or is it going to simply be "don't have time" to any suggestions?

It is always worth pitching ideas. Out of scope would be something like "a second copy of the ability that 20 monks get" or "this ability makes you coffee" but yeah, go for it

[DeltaBravo]

Let's be real, here. The current EDs are broken.

Fatesinger was unsalvageable. I had to remake the tree it was so bad. It's been a few weeks since that work was done and I'm still pulling the dregs of Fatesinger out of unrelated scripting. Half of the passives literally did not work. Almost every single ED ability stops you in place right now. There were so many things in so many trees that just... literally did not work. Did you know that if you log in, right now, on a level 1 character, one of the first things that happens is the combat log prints out "Master's Blitz Ready!" even though Blitz hasn't needed to be "ready" for years? Did you know that Fatesinger has 6 ranks for some abilities for some reason internally? Divine Crusader has an ability that literally does not stack with gear right now. There is a corner of Shadowdancer that I've heard described as the "maze of confusion" and it's a very apt description because it's all a big mess. You guys gave us grief about EiN being performance intensive, but almost half of the old implementations of some of these EDs also literally cause lag just from being in the game, period. The auras in Primal Avatar got stuck on players if you so much as sneezed near them. We were able to improve Draconic's stuff by just fixing the tooltips as some of the worst parts of the tree on paper had never even actually been implemented.

What the EDs needed was not new stuff - they needed help. Some fixes, some decoupling, some cleaning, and a fresh coat of paint. They need their buffs to actually match the icons of the abilities, they needed tooltips that actually described what abilities do. They represent a third of DDO's progression and their imbalance is a huge reason as to why so many players, myself included, find Epic gameplay so stifling. They already have the fun and creativity built in, and honestly, adding more would overload the trees. There are plenty of places to throw special sauce around, and EDs don't need more sauce, they need an actual bowl and some noodles to eat the sauce with.

Okey there is allways things in the background i dont see. For me the ED have been working fine ingame. (with ofc. some bugs here and there.-)

If you are fixing stuff that makes you stop when casting can you have a look on cleric divine cleansing aswell :P


Cheers DB

[Lynnabel]

If you are fixing stuff that makes you stop when casting can you have a look on cleric divine cleansing aswell :P

Sure, gotcha covered. It'll be in an upcoming patch.

[Eryhn]

Did you know that if you log in, right now, on a level 1 character, one of the first things that happens is the combat log prints out "Master's Blitz Ready!" even though Blitz hasn't needed to be "ready" for years? Did you know that Fatesinger has 6 ranks for some abilities for some reason internally? Divine Crusader has an ability that literally does not stack with gear right now. There is a corner of Shadowdancer that I've heard described as the "maze of confusion" and it's a very apt description because it's all a big mess. You guys gave us grief about EiN being performance intensive, but almost half of the old implementations of some of these EDs also literally cause lag just from being in the game, period. The auras in Primal Avatar got stuck on players if you so much as sneezed near them. We were able to improve Draconic's stuff by just fixing the tooltips as some of the worst parts of the tree on paper had never even actually been implemented.

What the EDs needed was not new stuff - they needed help. Some fixes, some decoupling, some cleaning, and a fresh coat of paint. They need their buffs to actually match the icons of the abilities, they needed tooltips that actually described what abilities do. They represent a third of DDO's progression and their imbalance is a huge reason as to why so many players, myself included, find Epic gameplay so stifling. They already have the fun and creativity built in, and honestly, adding more would overload the trees. There are plenty of places to throw special sauce around, and EDs don't need more sauce, they need an actual bowl and some noodles to eat the sauce with.

the amount of flack you could have saved yourself from in the martial thread by saying upfront that a lot of **** causes load just by being in the backend passively is probably not small

though, this still leaves us with the question why not completely scrap EiN and rewrite it?

the player suspicion that you nerf it the way you do swatting 2 flies in one go as its mass kill potential is undesired these days for various reasons still isnt entirely dispelled by more hands down pointing out how broken the ED code really is ...

anyways. personally, I HATE lag. I think it is rly great you found a whole new field of combating it.



BUT ... still think 4 is nothing is definetly not what I was lookin forward to when I just bought monk. In all due fairness there's a crapton of things i was looking forward to so it's just one part of the list.

still ....


*grumbles slightly less loud*

[ahpook]

It is always worth pitching ideas. Out of scope would be something like "a second copy of the ability that 20 monks get" or "this ability makes you coffee" but yeah, go for it

Thanks, I posted a new thread to see if there is anything the crowd likes

Complaints about the EiN changes...

.

[DeltaBravo]

sure, gotcha covered. It'll be in an upcoming patch.

ty

[Aelonwy]

It is always worth pitching ideas. Out of scope would be something like "a second copy of the ability that 20 monks get" or "this ability makes you coffee" but yeah, go for it

Wait what? There's an ability that will make me coffee? Does cream and sugar cost extra action points?

[tsotate]

One of the big problems with new-EiN is that it can target but not affect phased enemies. Since it can target them anyway, why not let it affect them? That would at least give EiN a niche where it shines, rather than being a strict nerf.

[btolson]

Sure, gotcha covered. It'll be in an upcoming patch.

It may be slated or complete already, but EA wings is interrupted by movement too. It also seems a bit laggier than other wings abilities, perhaps because there's so much gfx.

[J1NG]

One of the big problems with new-EiN is that it can target but not affect phased enemies. Since it can target them anyway, why not let it affect them? That would at least give EiN a niche where it shines, rather than being a strict nerf.

Already noted and raised, but... No response on if or how they are going to solve that.

I have a sneaky feeling we're going to get it and then get "adjustments" later on (because the lack of feedback in return from the Devs to us directly on this issue, which history has shown to be the Devs going full steam ahead), but stick to the same 4 target nonesense we're being offered. Which again, was never the real issue. 4 targets was always OK, assuming the rest of the effects from EiN landed or did something (GMoF users just needed more strategy and tactics). With the increase of DC's they should do something. But in most cases they won't, precisely because of Phasing, Boss Immunity, Champ Immunity, etc. Which takes up a target for their (enemy) allies, and makes the new EiN not perform as it should. And why everyone is shouting the house down because of it. And those making the save against the new EiN, assuming it's the same old damage, means 500 Bane Damage, hardly a scratch on latter enemies.

The solutions for this without any other changes include:

1. Making the AOE smaller. This way, you are more able to control who and what is in the AOE to affect them with the EiN. Er... I don't think that's going to fly though really. Drifting Lotus already is better at the moment compared to the new EiN, so if you make EiN AOE smaller, it'll even more pointless.
2. Increasing the numbers affected by EiN. This way, even if you catch a whole bunch of Immune enemies, you should grab some that are not Immune at the very least, so EiN does "something". But the amount to increase is seemingly being resisted by the Devs, citing Lag and Server Performance issues as the reason to reduce it anyway.
:: edit ::
3. Reduce the cooldown of EiN from 180s to 120s. This way, you can repeat the effect again to do the result you want. There's an issue here though, that neither Devs or players want. Devs don't want to give us it more than once per 180s to create parity with other Epic Moments. And for players, if you're still going to not affect what you need the next time (because the first time you used it the fight will long be over), it won't be doing anything useful still.

And in both those situations, it either makes it closer to what it is now (going option 2) but still retaining performance issues on the server. Or by nerfing EiN even harder, by making the AOE much smaller (option 1). Players have made it known we don't want anything like 1, and want more option 2. But Devs have also made it clear they don't like 2, so that leaves option 1.
:: edit ::
With option 3, neither side wants it. So that's out the window right off the bat.

Further suggestions can be made, but without any feedback from the Devs on what their goals and ideas are, there's no point suggesting anything because it may not fulfill their desired criteria in the first place.

So for now, Dev vs Player stare down (until really the Devs respond, because it's not the players who are not responding here).

J1NG

[Lynnabel]

Which takes up a target for their (enemy) allies, and makes the new EiN not perform as it should.

This is actually not true, fyi

[Paisheng]

It is always worth pitching ideas. Out of scope would be something like "a second copy of the ability that 20 monks get" or "this ability makes you coffee" but yeah, go for it

I can summarize several alternative suggestions made in this thread and the Martial Sphere thread so far:

1. Rewrite the script so EiN stays the same affecting all mobs in its range (with the range reduced as you plan and the stunning dc impacting it) so that it does not impact the server.

2. Utilize similar scripts of mass death spells that don't impact server lag and re-tag this version EiN with the EiN graphic display (this maybe a short term answer til a new script is written).

3. Reduce the number of those impacted to 6, 8 or more (1 per epic level up to 10 so it scales?). Many have felt these numbers were more reasonable than 4 currently planned.

4. Someone suggested that it could be more of a chain-lightning effect to the mobs, one at a time versus all at once if that would help cure the lag affect.

5. If the number is going to be limited to 4 mobs that it selects in the area those that can actually be impacted (not orange or red named or those immune to the death effect) would be more acceptable there is not a further reduction to the number impacted.

6. Make the 4 mobs include orange named and even those death blocked (after all this isn't really death -- it's like they've never been born (ow!)

7. Have EiN include some powerful buff to the monk or de-buff to the mobs besides the current parallelization (or increase the parallelization to 12 seconds from 6)


Comments on the how these ideas register with you -- those you like, dislike, can't implement, etc.

Thanks